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Pretty much spot on nefremo and both you and slifersd make the right point that we shouldn't just fill our squad full of youth players just for the sake of it. Promoting 1 or maybe 2 every year is more than adequate, and in fairness that might be pushing too hard in the long term. We want the cream of the crop in the first team squad, but we need to make sure the model we create ensures that we're not short of quality being created in house.

I don't think it's too hard as we need to try and maintain what we've been doing and just not let it slip. I mean we already have 8 homegrown players in our squad with Donnarumma, Plizzari, Calabria, Ely, Abate, Antonelli, DES and Locatelli. That's a good achievement, but in the not too distant future the likes of Abate and Antonelli will need replacing and others, Plizzari for example, might need replacing as they maybe go elsewhere to try and get playing time. What we don't want is to lose the heart and identity these guys bring to our team.

In other interesting news, it seems Pavoletti's gone to Napoli for 18m. I think the price is high, but I'm interested in seeing how this pans out. Pavoletti's been the butt of jokes of many Milan fans, but the criticism of him has been harsh as he's shown through his career that he might not be special, but he's a very solid player.
(01-05-2017, 06:19 PM)slifersd Wrote: [ -> ]The point about keeping youth players in youth teams is more about giving the youngsters their room to develop than anything else. Certainly, replacing the little used veterans with youngsters will benefit the first team (slightly), but the amount of damage it can do to the development of these young players cannot be understated. The first team probably wouldn't feel any sting by letting go of Vangioni and have Llamas in, but Llamas wouldn't get the game time he needs to develop his skills. You can only train so much before you have to get on the field and exercise what you learned. We probably save a couple million euros a year by doing this, but Llamas' development could completely stall and we end up wasting his potential too. That's why I advocate we only bring up youngsters who can realistically get some game action, whether it's due to their skill level or positional needs. 

I am no expert in this matter, but I am pretty sure you can't just bounce a player between youth and first team that easily. Coaches on both teams need their players to be fully committed to their programs, which includes training, technical studies, game tape studies, physical therapy/recovery, and many more. Bouncing a player between two teams will only make it difficult for him to fit in on either side, and therefore, rob him of any value to either team. Young players are much better off in a stable and familiar environment to develop. They can be used in an emergency situation, but for the most part, they are probably better off with the youth team to learn and grow than to be a numbers filler in the first team.

(01-05-2017, 07:38 PM)nefremo Wrote: [ -> ]Promoting 1-2 players per year as we have been doing recently is a good goal to aim for. I think it's a good model and it is something that is achievable and that also benefits the club and the players themselves.

Bascially, there should be a model within these lines in my opinion:

1. Bracket A - Identify the 1-2 players that are ready (if there are any to begin with) to get meaningful game time and than promote them to the first team. Examples in recent years are players like Locatelli, Donnarumma, De Sciglio. I would put Calabria in here also but I am split on him and wonder if he would benefit more from being in Bracket B.

2. Bracket B - Identify 2-3 (or more if there are actually more in this bracket) players that have the potential and talent, but are perhaps not yet there for various reasons (example, maybe there is 2 players already ahead of them in their positions and knowing that they wouldn't get much game time, it's not beneficial to keep them around just for practicing with the senior team). Try to loan these players out to a team that will actually PLAY THEM. (examples would be players like Petagna for example, or Darmian, or maybe even guys like Llamas and Felicioli). On the other hand, a good example of how not to loan out a player is Gabriel. We knew that he wouldn't play at Napoli so I have no idea why we gave him to them...unless we had already given up on the guy anyway.

3. Bracket C - Players that might not quite be ready for senior football yet but can definitely get there if they get used to the speed of the play and will maybe benefit from training with the senior team on a somewhat consistent basis ("consistent basis" will obviously have to be defined and worked out as these players obviously have commitments to the Primavera also). A good example of these players are maybe guys like Gabbia, Cutrone, La Ferrara, etc.

4. Bracket D - Simply the rest of the Primavera.  


So I agree with slifersd. I don't think we should be loading the team with youth players unless we really plan to use them. They have to feel the confidence of the club and the coach in order to grow. We can't just play them 2-3 times per season and expect them to turn out great. At first they'll be excited that they are with the first team, but that initial excitement is short-lived. Very quickly the confidence will go and they'll either not develop or want to leave. In any case, it's a lose-lose situation for both Milan and the players. Unless the players are truly part of the project, than don't bring them into the first team.

Let's take Llamas as an example. Sure, he can take Vangioni's spot with absolutely no problem. After all, Vangioni hasn't played a single minute. So in that sense, we would be saving in Vangioni's salary and we surely wouldn't miss him. But can Llamas play ahead of Antonelli and De Sciglio? If the answer is NO, than he shouldn't be in the first team just to watch them play.

Just my 2 cents on the topic. I think it's an interesting one...

(01-05-2017, 09:05 PM)ACMILAN1983 Wrote: [ -> ]Pretty much spot on nefremo and both you and slifersd make the right point that we shouldn't just fill our squad full of youth players just for the sake of it. Promoting 1 or maybe 2 every year is more than adequate, and in fairness that might be pushing too hard in the long term. We want the cream of the crop in the first team squad, but we need to make sure the model we create ensures that we're not short of quality being created in house.

I don't think it's too hard as we need to try and maintain what we've been doing and just not let it slip. I mean we already have 8 homegrown players in our squad with Donnarumma, Plizzari, Calabria, Ely, Abate, Antonelli, DES and Locatelli. That's a good achievement, but in the not too distant future the likes of Abate and Antonelli will need replacing and others, Plizzari for example, might need replacing as they maybe go elsewhere to try and get playing time. What we don't want is to lose the heart and identity these guys bring to our team.

In other interesting news, it seems Pavoletti's gone to Napoli for 18m. I think the price is high, but I'm interested in seeing how this pans out. Pavoletti's been the butt of jokes of many Milan fans, but the criticism of him has been harsh as he's shown through his career that he might not be special, but he's a very solid player.

I like the attention we have on the subject of nurturing the youngsters. Brilliant!

But I must have expressed myself wrong, since I agree with all three of you.. or at least that's what I think.

My point is that instead of having a senior squad consisting of 28 players, we could easily turn that down to 22/23 players, without compromising with the quality of the entire squad.

I do NOT want to promote the talents like Cutrone, Vido, Zanellatto, Llamas and Gabbia fully. They sure could train with the first team a couple of times a week. But their main focus should be on the Primavera team. Sure. My idea was to let them act as a "pseudo"-back up and be 3rd or 4th choice for a specific spot, like the case with Llamas. He might not even be on the bench for an entire season, but there is no need to have a "Vangioni"-solution as 3rd choice. That was what I intended to state, not that we should promote the players entirely to the first team soon. In my opinion you are all correct in your assessment of how to nurture talents. Not necessarily the best way to do it, but at least we Milanisti seems to agree.

To add to that, I think Hachim Mastour is the example of how-not-to. I think he would be a more sought-after talent today, had he stayed at Milan and played with the Nazionali first and then promoted to the Primavera gradually. Still hope that we take him back this winter, and leave him with the primavera.
Regarding transfers in general

Quote:China intends to limit the amount clubs are spending on overseas players after the repeated breaking of the Asian transfer record.

A government spokesman said clubs have been “burning money” on importing talent. Shanghai SIPG spent £52m on the Brazil midfielder Oscar and Carlos Tévez joined Shanghai Shenhua to reportedly become the world’s best-paid player.

A spokesman of the general administration of sport told state media in an interview the government would “regulate and restrain high-priced signings, and make reasonable restrictions on players’ high incomes”.

Chinese clubs broke the Asian transfer record four times last year after China’s president, Xi Jinping, said he wanted to transform the country into a “football superpower”. The spokesman said the government would “set the upper limit” for transfer fees and income, and control “irrational investment”. “We must take building 100-year clubs as the goal,” he said, adding that clubs’ financial supervision would be strengthened, and their spending on players would be controlled. “We will remove the seriously insolvent clubs from the professional league.”

The Chinese FA is to reduce the number of overseas players allowed in a team from five to four.

https://www.theguardian.com/football/201...ning-money
(01-05-2017, 09:37 PM)kaka*** Wrote: [ -> ]I like the attention we have on the subject of nurturing the youngsters. Brilliant!

But I must have expressed myself wrong, since I agree with all three of you.. or at least that's what I think.

My point is that instead of having a senior squad consisting of 28 players, we could easily turn that down to 22/23 players, without compromising with the quality of the entire squad.

I do NOT want to promote the talents like Cutrone, Vido, Zanellatto, Llamas and Gabbia fully. They sure could train with the first team a couple of times a week. But their main focus should be on the Primavera team. Sure. My idea was to let them act as a "pseudo"-back up and be 3rd or 4th choice for a specific spot, like the case with Llamas. He might not even be on the bench for an entire season, but there is no need to have a "Vangioni"-solution as 3rd choice. That was what I intended to state, not that we should promote the players entirely to the first team soon. In my opinion you are all correct in your assessment of how to nurture talents. Not necessarily the best way to do it, but at least we Milanisti seems to agree.

To add to that, I think Hachim Mastour is the example of how-not-to. I think he would be a more sought-after talent today, had he stayed at Milan and played with the Nazionali first and then promoted to the Primavera gradually. Still hope that we take him back this winter, and leave him with the primavera.
I agrer with that  Okmilan

Ah Mastour , the boy the myth the legend.Im not sure how he got the massive massive " oh my god he's the next Messi Ronaldo combined" following he has or rather had.But he is not the real deal even as a youngster.It only takes watching him play to see he lacks a lot of what a footballer needs to have.He has this massive massive ego thats taken a knock , but beyond his insane juggling skills he just doesnt have it.He is a Kerlon or Keirrison or Freddy Adu nothing more.
(01-06-2017, 06:39 AM)Jay Crisp Wrote: [ -> ]I agrer with that  Okmilan

Ah Mastour , the boy the myth the legend.Im not sure how he got the massive massive " oh my god he's the next Messi Ronaldo combined" following he has or rather had.But he is not the real deal even as a youngster.It only takes watching him play to see he lacks a lot of what a footballer needs to have.He has this massive massive ego thats taken a knock , but beyond his insane juggling skills he just doesnt have it.He is a Kerlon or Keirrison or Freddy Adu nothing more.


See I agree with you on Mastour, but taken into consideration of how superior he was as 14-years old, he should definitely have been nurtured more wisely. Easy to say afterwards, but a lot of us fans had worries about him being loaned out..

He is still only 18y old, and could easily still be called back, and nurtured at Primavera. Wouldn't bet on him as the next big thing though..


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(01-06-2017, 09:26 AM)kaka*** Wrote: [ -> ]See I agree with you on Mastour, but taken into consideration of how superior he was as 14-years old, he should definitely have been nurtured more wisely. Easy to say afterwards, but a lot of us fans had worries about him being loaned out..

He is still only 18y old, and could easily still be called back, and nurtured at Primavera. Wouldn't bet on him as the next big thing though..


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I reay dont see him developing into what we hope or even half of it.He's been pampered for years & now that hes no longer a kid (still very young clearly ) it seems he bought into his own hype and just doesnt work anywhere near as hard as he should.I think that was a thing that was an issue at Malaga.But luckily enough we have some youth that could form the spine of a very very healthy Milan team.
I was hoping that going to Zwolle was the right decision for him. A low profile club that plays in a league that loves youngsters. But I gotta say, I made the effort to watch a couple of his games towards the beginning of the season...and he was absolute crap! His first touch was terrible (which is very surprising since with all the flicks, tricks, and juggling things at least his first touch and close control will be good)! Even a bigger problem was his decision making and the speed of thought. I don't even know if it's not working hard to be honest. I don't know that we have a way of knowing that unless someone came out and said it (i don't recall anything like that, but maybe I missed it). I just think that he simply may not be good enough. Simple as that. Many players fail to make the transition from youth teams to senior teams. Some more some less. Just look at Bojan as an example. He scored 100s of goals as a youth player.

I do agree with you Jay when you say that he bought into his own hype. Asking to play and asking to leave at 16. It was a ridiculously bad decision by him or whoever was advising him at the time.

Having said all that, I do agree with kaka*** that it's silly to give up on an 18 year old. He can still be used in the primavera and maybe at the end of the day become a fringe player even. He doesn't have to be the next big thing, like you said. He can be a rotation player. Why not...

@kaka***, You are right...I think we all essentially agree on how we should handle youngsters. It's just a question if the club has the same ideas. In all honesty, I am a little skeptical to give them a lot of credit about what's going on with the youngsters presently. It only turned out this way because Galliani was told he can't spend any more money. I bet that if he was allowed to, he would have still been signing old washed up players and giving them huge wages instead of believing in these youngsters. In other words...we almost had no choice but to rely on the youngsters.
For the offense I would sell Honda, Luiz Adriano, Bacca, Niang and buy Bernardeschi, Berardi, Baselli and Keita!

Left side: Keita, Bernardeschi
Right side: Suso, Berardi
Middle: Baselli, Lapadula

Young and mainly italian line-up!

For the middle, I would sell Sosa, Mati, Poli, I would only buy Pellegrini and Pasalic!

Left side: Bonaventura, Bertolacci, Mauri
Right side: Pellegrini, Pasalic, Kucka
Middle: Locatelli, Montolivo, Zanellato

For defense I would sell Vangioni, Ely, Zapata and only buy one defender (I would have preferred Caldara, but unfortunately Juventus signed him).
Left: De Sciglio, Antonelli
Middle: Romagnoli, Paletta, Gomez, new defender
Right: Abate, Calabria

For the goalkeepers, I would only exchange Gabriel to Strorari!

Donnarumna, Strorari, Plizzari

This would be a young, fast and italian Milan, I dream of!

And with all the sales plus Chinese money, it's not impossible!

What do you think guys?
(01-06-2017, 06:05 PM)Gregorio Wrote: [ -> ]For the offense I would sell Honda, Luiz Adriano, Bacca, Niang and buy Bernardeschi, Berardi, Baselli and Keita!

Left side: Keita, Bernardeschi
Right side: Suso, Berardi
Middle: Baselli, Lapadula

Young and mainly italian line-up!

For the middle, I would sell Sosa, Mati, Poli, I would only buy Pellegrini and Pasalic!

Left side: Bonaventura, Bertolacci, Mauri
Right side: Pellegrini, Pasalic, Kucka
Middle: Locatelli, Montolivo, Zanellato

For defense I would sell Vangioni, Ely, Zapata and only buy one defender (I would have preferred Caldara, but unfortunately Juventus signed him).
Left: De Sciglio, Antonelli
Middle: Romagnoli, Paletta, Gomez, new defender
Right: Abate, Calabria

For the goalkeepers, I would only exchange Gabriel to Strorari!

Donnarumna, Strorari, Plizzari

This would be a young, fast and italian Milan, I dream of!

And with all the sales plus Chinese money, it's not impossible!

What do you think guys?

I dont think that side would fight Juve and may even miss out on 3rd.Its also very very expensive Fiorentina are looking for €50m for Bernadeschi , Keita €25-€30m and the same for Berardi.Pellegrini IDK €20-€25m Pasalic €12m...thats a hell of a lot of money for a side with potential but not a guarantee , ofcourse nothings a guarantee but you know what I mean.

As for who you'd sell.
Honda Adriano Zapata Poli Sosa we'll get €0 for.
We dont own Mati.
Bacca Niang €35m if we're lucky.
I think the Mastour ship has sailed. The issue with him is not his physical attributes or skills level (though both are underwhelming as well) but rather his mentality. The kid clearly bought into his own hype and thought of himself as a star before he was anywhere near that level. And the sad part is, mental issues are the most difficult if not impossible problem to fix. You can teach a person how to dribble, pass or shoot; you can train someone to get bigger, stronger, run faster and jump higher; But it is really hard to change someone's mentality completely. Mastour might still be young, but his head had already gotten too big over the years, and I don't see how he can just turn around his way of thinking 180 degrees. I mean, can you really envision him swallowing every single ounce of his pride to go back to the Premievera to work on his craft from scratch? After all those years of thinking he was the next big thing? The mountain top is a mighty difficult place to come down from. He was a fun story to follow for however long his star lasted, but now, he is destined to join the loooooooong list of "football could've beens".