AC Milan Forums - Unofficial

Full Version: Serie A
You're currently viewing a stripped down version of our content. View the full version with proper formatting.
(08-02-2014, 03:09 PM)Mystik Wrote: [ -> ]Cagliari have joined Fiorentina, Sampdoria, Sassuolo, Cesena and Brescia as clubs that have withdrawn their support for Tavecchio after the comments he made. Roma and Juve never supported him at all. Slowly but surely clubs are starting to change their tune on the matter. I am quite disappointed that the team I support is backing someone who has constantly made comments against minorities in the support (be it sexist or racist)

On the topic of B teams, I read through the comments on the Guardian article and I realized something that did not occur to me before. It is not at all fair to the teams and supporters in the lower divisions if the clubs with the financial power are effectively allowed a second roster to load up with young talent. I say it is unfair because whereas these players would play for the Serie B/C clubs before, now they would sit on Juventus B simply because Juve can outspend the other clubs. Also, we would probably be displacing clubs in Serie B or C who have supporters that want to see their team with a fair chance of promotion. I would obviously need to see how it were to be implemented but I can see potential objections, especially from the supporters of Serie B/C clubs.

Lastly, on the topic of candidates, I definitely prefer Albertini's homegrown player philosophy over the non-EU idea of Tavecchio. While they both aim to achieve the same thing (stopping Galliani from buying more Viudez and Cardaccio fodder players.), I find the homegrown player philosophy more tactful, less exclusive, and we have seen that the non-EU/work permit rule didn't do anything for the England NT anyway...so why bring it to Italy?

Add Empoli to that list too.

About the B team situation, I think it's something that requires a lot of thought. However, just to comment on your points about it being unfair, which I understand, I do think you can look at it from another perspective:

1) If teams like Juve (and Milan of course) were to keep young talents for their B teams rather than just loaning them to smaller clubs, this may be in the best interest of the players. Firstly, most players who are sent out on loan tend to be wasted, just look at our own players who have come through the ranks over the years. Most of them are struggling to get any playing time as the focus in Italy hasn't been to develop young talents. In a B team, not only do these young talents get more opportunities than elsewhere, but they will be playing within the club, meaning they can be groomed into potential first side players, unlike out on loan where you hope they just work out well.

2) About displacing clubs already in Serie B and C etc, I think it comes down to which clubs have earnt to play in these leagues. I would suggest that clubs with B teams can't just displace a club in a higher division, and instead they need to earn their way up. If that's the case, then those clubs who have been overtaken by a B team really can't complain, as they've been beaten sportingly.

3) There is a big benefit to B teams and that's the potential interest and coverage in lower leagues. Ultimately, if big clubs have teams in a lower league, that league will get more media attention and therefore stand to make more money.

A lot really depends on how this is all implemented, but if done correctly it stands to work out better for the quality of players being developed at top clubs. Which is the point, it does work in the best interests of clubs with B teams, albeit at the expense of other smaller clubs. However, if the sacrifice is working for the greater good, then it may be necessary for Italian football to be relevant.
I agree that in terms of player development and quality, the B teams makes plenty sense. I can't see the Serie B/C teams benefiting too much from the major clubs hogging more talent for themselves. I'm just playing devil's advocate here but the only way I see them benefiting is if TV deals increase in value as you suggest. Neither candidate has suggested how they will implement it so I guess we'll have to wait and see. Judging from the comments of that Guardian article though, the 3rd division fans of English team gave me the impression that they don't want to see the quality of the teams that they support diminish as the Man City's of this world accumulate a 100 player roster.
(08-04-2014, 10:01 PM)Mystik Wrote: [ -> ]I agree that in terms of player development and quality, the B teams makes plenty sense. I can't see the Serie B/C teams benefiting too much from the major clubs hogging more talent for themselves. I'm just playing devil's advocate here but the only way I see them benefiting is if TV deals increase in value as you suggest. Neither candidate has suggested how they will implement it so I guess we'll have to wait and see. Judging from the comments of that Guardian article though, the 3rd division fans of English team gave me the impression that they don't want to see the quality of the teams that they support diminish as the Man City's of this world accumulate a 100 player roster.

On top clubs hogging talented players, I honestly feel little sympathy for smaller clubs in the lower divisions. For years, they've had access to these players either on loan or co-ownership and almost always it's a waste, as they either don't play them or they use them in ways that don't benefit the player's growth. Bear in mind that top clubs with B teams will need to sell these players eventually anyway (ideally at the top level, but also to lower league sides) if they don't have a future in the first team, simply because they need space in the B team squad for other youth players coming through.

I don't think Tavecchio has plans to implement this, I think he's against the idea of B teams. Albertini on the other hand does want to implement this and we can't say whether he's outlined how he'll implement it. We (and the press) summarised that he wants to do it, but let's not forget he provided a 25 page manifest on his plans, so he may have outlined how he'll do it in that.

About the article from the Guardian, we should read into it with a pinch of salt, as we're talking about implementing a similar idea in England, but not necessarily in the same way. The concerns of a club like Man City accumulating a 100 player roster isn't far from the reality right now. Let me use our club as an example (I prefer to focus on Italian football personally), where basically we have our first team squad, then you have various youth sides in the club. When you realistically add up all of the players of each of these defined squads, you're already looking at over 100 players (a lot of them are obviously too young to play at senior level, but should still be counted as players in our club).

Now last year Brocchi was in charge of Allievi and is now in charge of Primavera. With him, a lot of the youngsters at Allievi level will go to Primavera. A lot of the youngsters in Primavera last season will be shipped off to other clubs, as we don't have space for them in our youth level anymore and they're not ready for the first team squad. At this point, most of them get stuck in limbo, as they may be loaned to other clubs, but there's a massive risk they don't get to play and are lost as I've stated above.

The B Team squad would give them space and time to continue their growth and assimilate to a senior level. Truth is, having B team squads imo doesn't mean we will be buying more players or even necessarily stopping clubs having access to our youngsters, because we don't have space for the numbers we already have. This just allows a smoother transition to the senior level. Truth is, smaller clubs potentially have something more to gain too in this respect, as rather than getting a youth talent with no senior level experience and not using him because he's not ready, they potentially get players who can immediately give more as they've had time at senior level football.

Some interesting comments on Tavecchio's plans:

http://www.football-italia.net/53492/mal...too-costly
What happens if a B team gets promoted from Serie B into Serie A? How is that going to work? Because one owner can not own two teams in the same division as far as I'm concerned. Obviously there is ways around this, as Silvio/Fininvest don't necessarily have to own the B team on paper, but that then defies the purpose doesn't it?

I'm a little confused about the logistics of how this whole thing will work.
I once played Barcelona in an old Football Manager version. That team still had Kluivert and Saviola.

And my Barcelona B cannot get promoted to 1st Division despite 1st finishing in 2nd Division. So all I can do were promoting the best players from B team to A team, and giving back young players for exchange.

I think the reality is not very different.
What Aficio says is correct. Hypothetically, if Barcelona A were relegated to 2nd division, even if Barcelona B won 2nd division, they would have to be relegated to 3rd instead of being promoted to 1st. I believe that it happened to some team in the past decade (Villarreal?).
Yes, I believe Xu and Aficio are correct. I'm not really worried about the big clubs. I just feel bad for whatever number of clubs that get forced out of a division to make space for the B teams of the financially powerful clubs. Of course, this could be negated by having the B team start from the bottom of the bottom. Dev doesn't have any love for the small clubs though DevilolGrinundwech
Haha, nice hypothesis, Xu Big Grin

If we are worried about small clubs, a league for reverse teams like EPL seems a nice idea.
nefremo, as mentioned above, the general point is an "A" team and "B" cannot play in the same division, so the "B" team can never get into Serie A and if the "A" team is relegated, the "B" team would be relegated by default. Same should go for cup competitions, where "B" teams shouldn't be allowed to enter as the "A" team would be involved (this is the way it works in Spain).

About the "B" team getting promoted and a guy like Berlusconi not owning it on paper, this isn't possible as a "B" team would need to be registered under AC Milan, not as a seperate club. This is where details are key, as Albertini wants B teams, while Tavecchio wants to allow multiple clubs being owned by a single entity (e.g. Berlusconi, Finnivest etc). With the B Team proposal, as we've seen in Spain it's not really possible to have loopholes because of the way of how a B team is identified and registered.

In the second club under the same owner proposal, we hit a lot of grey areas unless strict ruling is applied similar to B team situations. Even in this scenario, I think there would be possible legal claims and arguments that would make it difficult to stop two teams under the same ownership playing in one competition. The reason is that while with B teams we're talking about 2 seperate aspects (A and B teams) of a single entity (AC Milan), with second club ownerships we're talking about two totally different clubs that happen to be under one ownership.

(08-05-2014, 09:11 PM)Mystik Wrote: [ -> ]Yes, I believe Xu and Aficio are correct. I'm not really worried about the big clubs. I just feel bad for whatever number of clubs that get forced out of a division to make space for the B teams of the financially powerful clubs. Of course, this could be negated by having the B team start from the bottom of the bottom. Dev doesn't have any love for the small clubs though DevilolGrinundwech

Damn those pesky small clubs Big Grin Actually, I agree with you that B teams should start from the bottom and work their way up (I mentioned this in a previous post too), in the interest of sporting fairness and parity.

You're right too, I do have little sympathy for how this affects small clubs. If B teams start from the bottom and work their way up, then they are sportingly earning a place above small clubs. I've obviously written before how I don't like how young talents are wasted by smaller clubs (not to say big clubs don't waste young talent, they're actually much worse).