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(04-12-2019, 01:44 AM)omer486 Wrote: [ -> ]What are you following? David Neres, Brazilian 22 years old star of Ajax. There's Arthur, 22 ,starting midfielder for Barcelona. Vinicius, 18 years old starter for Real Madrid and even took Gareth Bale's place until he got injured., Gabriel Jesus, 22.... Which Italian young players are starting for the top Champion's League teams?

I've watched Chiesa. He plays much better than Suso. He's fast and skillful. There are also many other wingers better than Suso. No one prefers Suso to Chiesa. That doesn't make Chiesa one of the best wingers in the world!

I've never seen anyone say Chiesa is one of the world's best
(04-11-2019, 11:45 PM)porcho Wrote: [ -> ]Because being a midfielder is more than shots and assists...
Luca Modric, Ballon D'Or winner... 3 goals and 5 assists...
Gagliardini has 5 goals... does that put him close to Luca Modric?
Cristante has 4 goals 3 assists.
Luis Alberto has 3 goals 7 assists. Does that make him better than Modric?

There is so much more to playing midfield than goals and assists. Particularly with a box to box midfielder.
For me Barella would be a better fit. While he's not as strong or powerful, he adds a lot more diversity to our midfield.

We've got Bakayoko for strength and power, except Bakayoko is better at everything else.

Agreed 100%. When you're a striker, your goals do most of the talking, but in midfield assists and goals say much less as to a players overall contribution. Remind me how many goals Pirlo used to score in a season if it wasn't for the odd free kick.

Spot on post
(04-12-2019, 01:44 AM)omer486 Wrote: [ -> ]What are you following? David Neres, Brazilian 22 years old star of Ajax. There's Arthur, 22 ,starting midfielder for Barcelona. Vinicius, 18 years old starter for Real MadridNeres isn't one of the best in the world... yet. Wait till he gets picked up by a better team and plays in a better league.

Arthur has only jsut started, so has Vinicius(although he'll be a new Neymar). Also highly rate Gabriel Jesus. and even took Gareth Bale's place until he got injured., Gabriel Jesus, 22.... Which Italian young players are starting for the top Champion's League teams?

I've watched Chiesa. He plays much better than Suso. He's fast and skillful. There are also many other wingers better than Suso. No one prefers Suso to Chiesa. That doesn't make Chiesa one of the best wingers in the world!

Neres isn't one of the best in the world... yet. Wait till he gets picked up by a better team and plays in a better league.

Arthur has only jsut started, so has Vinicius(although he'll be a new Neymar). Also highly rate Gabriel Jesus.

Playing CL does not make a top football. Performing consistently well in a top league does.

Chiesa, Barella( which is why so many people are after them)
Donarumma, Romagnoli, Bernadeschi, Politano, Zanaiolo, Pellegrini, Meret, Cutrone.

Like i said before. italy produces more talents, but lately, less of them hit the top of the top...
@omer486
To be honest Brazil is one of the most over hyped nations out there at the moment. A lot of their players get attention for their dribbling still and in this they still produce, but they certainly haven't proven to be as effective as their predecessors. Even their best player Neymar has been overshadowed by M'bappe at PSG and seems to get more attention for his celebrity lifestyle than he does for any on-field accomplishments. In all honesty he wouldn't have went to PSG if he wanted to make a name in history for himself.

Top European clubs buy into this because their players are still entertaining and fans buy into Brazilian names hoping to see the next Ronaldo, Ronaldinho etc., but there hasn't been a true Brazilian champion since Kaka/Ronaldinho tbh. Good players yes, but truly in a class of their own no. I'd be careful with investing in Brazilians these days. It's very early to make a statement on any of the players you mentioned. Germany's annihilation of Brazil 7-1 was their first real wake up call in this new era. It exposed all their flaws and showed the world that they aren't the force they once were. Italy isn't in much better of a position, but I would be careful with how highly you rate these young Brazilians of today.

Serie A doesn't get the hype it once got, but I wouldn't put the likes of Chiesa, Bernardeschi or Politano beneath the likes of Arthur/Vinicius etc. because imo they have proven the same if not more of themselves, but will naturally receive more hype playing for Madrid and Barcelona. Especially considering you used stats to debate your previous points, those stats wouldn't serve you well because Vinicius only had 1 or 2 goals in 15 appearances, Arthur only had 1 ASSIST in 22 appearances, and Gabriel Jesus only 6 goals in 25 appearances. If we references stats like you did on your previous posts than all of those Brazilians you just mentioned should be in Serie B. Neres has a hand full of goals but he's playing in the dutch league so again I'd like to see him in one of Europe's top leagues first.
(04-12-2019, 04:00 AM)WCmilan Wrote: [ -> ]@omer486
To be honest Brazil is one of the most over hyped nations out there at the moment. A lot of their players get attention for their dribbling still and in this they still produce, but they certainly haven't proven to be as effective as their predecessors. Even their best player Neymar has been overshadowed by M'bappe at PSG and seems to get more attention for his celebrity lifestyle than he does for any on-field accomplishments. In all honesty he wouldn't have went to PSG if he wanted to make a name in history for himself.

Top European clubs buy into this because their players are still entertaining and fans buy into Brazilian names hoping to see the next Ronaldo, Ronaldinho etc., but there hasn't been a true Brazilian champion since Kaka/Ronaldinho tbh. Good players yes, but truly in a class of their own no. I'd be careful with investing in Brazilians these days. It's very early to make a statement on any of the players you mentioned. Germany's annihilation of Brazil 7-1 was their first real wake up call in this new era. It exposed all their flaws and showed the world that they aren't the force they once were. Italy isn't in much better of a position, but I would be careful with how highly you rate these young Brazilians of today.

Serie A doesn't get the hype it once got, but I wouldn't put the likes of Chiesa, Bernardeschi or Politano beneath the likes of Arthur/Vinicius etc. because imo they have proven the same if not more of themselves, but will naturally receive more hype playing for Madrid and Barcelona. Especially considering you used stats to debate your previous points, those stats wouldn't serve you well because Vinicius only had 1 or 2 goals in 15 appearances, Arthur only had 1 ASSIST in 22 appearances, and Gabriel Jesus only 6 goals in 25 appearances. If we references stats like you did on your previous posts than all of those Brazilians you just mentioned should be in Serie B. Neres has a hand full of goals but he's playing in the dutch league so again I'd like to see him in one of Europe's top leagues first.

This. You put it together a lot better than I did.

Also... if we're using stats as a guide...
Bruno Fernandes is comfortably the best Mid in the world by far...
27 goals, 15 assists in 46 games.
(04-12-2019, 04:11 AM)porcho Wrote: [ -> ]This. You put it together a lot better than I did.

Also... if we're using stats as a guide...
Bruno Fernandes is comfortably the best Mid in the world by far...
27 goals, 15 assists in 46 games.

Whatttt??? Those are some crazy numbers. Did not know that.
Isn't this the same guy that "failed" at Sampdoria?
(04-12-2019, 04:33 AM)nefremo Wrote: [ -> ]Whatttt??? Those are some crazy numbers. Did not know that.
Isn't this the same guy that "failed" at Sampdoria?

Yep. He did well at Udinese, didn't fit at Samp. Did great in his first season at Sporting but this season he's jsut taking the Piss...
(04-12-2019, 01:19 AM)omer486 Wrote: [ -> ]There are definitely better midfielders around than Kessie. He definitely needs to improve to become world class. In terms of passing he has a 88.2% pass success rate in serie A according to whoscored.com. Comparatively Barella has a 81.8 % pass success rate in serie A.

It's fine to see the players faults which Kessie has. At the same time people are making it out as if Barella is Modric or Tony Kroos. Who know in 2 / 3 years time but right now the facts don't support it.

There are so many reasons for these percentages. I can take the ball in Kessie's position and pass it sideways to Bakayoko, sideways to Calabria, backwards to Musacchio, 5 meters to Suso, etc, etc. I will have a 100% passing success rate. Doesn't mean that I did anything for my team. Doesn't mean I aleviated pressure. Doesn't mean I played out of pressure and in turn it can actually mean that I PUT my team under pressure. Doesn't mean I created anything. Doesn't mean I put my team in a better field position and it can mean I put my team in a worse foeld position, slowed down the play, Etc, etc, etc, etc.

My point it that passing percentages mean nothing 99% of the time. You can base your opinion on passing success rate. That's fine. We'll just have to agree to disagree. Not saying Barella is workd class or god knows what, but given the opportunity to "exchange" him for Kessie? I'll do it in a heart beat.
^ I agree with nefremo, most of Kessie's passing is a few meters away from his teammates after he recovers the ball etc. Barella has a different role & playing style, therefore requires riskier passing in the form of long balls & through's.

The only reason I brought up stats in my last post was to prove that exact point - that stats never tell the full story, unless you're a striker in which case you're only real job is to score goals. Holding the ball up well and being involved in build up is great and something to look at, but assists&goals is always what we expect from our strikers.

Midfielders, wingers, defenders & goalkeepers can't be accurately judged. For example, Douglas Costa is a very good player but his stats are awful this season. He was 1 goal and 2 assists in 17 matches for Juventus, but he's still a very valuable player. He adds a different dimension on the field using his quick feet and ability in tight spaces to open up space for his team mates, he might not be directly involved with an assist or goal but the space he creates on and off the ball with his pace & dribbling makes him an important player.
Donnarumma had a bad defense in front of him last season & conceded a lot of goals - it doesn't make him a bad GK.

Midfield is probably the most complex aspect of modern day football, and there is literally so many roles and variations of midfielders these days that it is literally impossible to look at the stats. We know who our good midfielders are by watching them and that's about it tbh. There's CB's converted into midfielders & vice versa, naturally attacking players dropping into the midfield, destroyers and box to boxes like Kessie who have a specific role. It's really too difficult to point at statistics and say it tells the full story, especially when it comes to the midfield.

With all this being said, I went into detail mainly to clarify my last post. I'm not saying Vinicius, Arthur etc. are bad players, but the two main points I tried to get across is that they've proven no more (in my opinion a bit less) than what's on offer in Italy, and that we can't be using statistics alone to rate most these players - especially not young players who are bound to experience inconsistency, injuries etc.
Joao Felix looks good with the hattrick last night..
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