AC Milan Forums - Unofficial

(09-13-2014, 03:15 PM)ZvonimirBoban Wrote: [ -> ]Since when an Interisti's comments worth anything here?

Same Interista's said Cristante had WC potential after his first game

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Some interesting quotes from Primavera coach Brocchi today. He was saying our strategy's to promote youth to first team. He even said some could be playing Serie A next season. Obviously I think he's talking out his ass after Cristante's sale but maybe not. The 3 best Primavera players (De Santis, Locatelli, Mastour) will be 17/18 next year. I think that's too young so they'll probably be promoted season after. Interestingly a lot of ageing fodders (Essien, Torres, Muntari, Mexes) contracts will be expiring then.

(09-13-2014, 01:12 PM)nefremo Wrote: [ -> ]I liked how Saponara performed in pre-season. I hope he gets space too. About the midfield, I agree that it's a pretty sad looking group. I've always said that it's our biggest problems. I have high hopes for Bonaventura and I hope he gets played there. I think that if he performs to the levels he did for Atalanta (hopefully he will improve too) then this midfield with him in there is definitely an improvement over recent years. I wouldn't even dare compare it to the one of the early to mid 2000's and let's not even talk about the early-mid 90s.
Poli for me has always just been average, and mostly disappointing. That's why I think Muntari, even if not tactically perfect, is a much better option at this point. At least until Montolivo returns.

Jokka, I'm a little surprised you are putting Niang's name in the mix with all those others. He is 19.

You have said that about the midfield for a very long time. I don't really understand the decisions made around it for the past 5-6 years, given how important the midfield is in the modern games.

About Poli, I think his game is lacking in two key areas, both mental and physical. The physical for me is simple, he's not strong enough on or off the ball. Currently, when he plays he's often overpowered by opposing midfielders, which is why it seems he's weak defensively. On the flip side though, we're talking about a guy who averaged almost 2 tackles per game as mezzala/wide AM last season, a pretty decent return and against Lazio had 4 interceptions, which is really good.

Mentally, which I think is the weakest part of his game I think he's got to think ahead more. Right now, when I often see him on the pitch, he's making decisions about what to do too slowly, meaning he ends up chasing play or running himself into unthreatening positions. However, again he's someone who averages around 85% pass success rates and against Lazio had 90%, showing that on the ball he is very stable.

Ultimately, since joining from Sampdoria I think he's actually regressed a little, perhaps because at Samp play centred more around him (which is why I say he needs to try and show more personality on the pitch for Milan). There he was playing to a very good level, again averaging 3 tackles a game and 2 interceptions, while his passing remained consistent at around 85%, and he's done that throughout his career.

This is why I think he's got more to offer. At the moment, he's a very stable player, but one who won't stand out amongst a group of strong personalities. More than his physical weaknesses, I think if he can show more personality, then he'll play as he did in Sampdoria and be very good. If he can take the extra step to read the game faster, I think we could have an excellent player. The hope for me is that his call ups to the national side as well as Pippo's trust give him confidence to grow.

(09-13-2014, 02:25 PM)Jokka Wrote: [ -> ]What's age got to do with it? For a true assessment we need to compare him against similar players. At 19, Berardi had 16 goals/10 assists playing for minnows Sassuolo. Right now he's worth 20m+. Similarly, Lazio's Keita had 5 goals/5 assists in 25 games and Juve/Liverpool just had 20m bids rejected. What's Niang ever done? 0 goals/28 games not to mention numerous run ins with the law. No big team wants Niang and only Milan fans rate him. Inter fans recently praising Coman said "let's pray he's another M'baye Niang not Pogba lol".

A lot of us have had issues with the way Niang's played in Milan many times, but you can't deny his potential. His decision making is poor and his shot lacks precision, but beyond that he's got a great physique at 19, pace, decent movement, technical quality and his workrate and defensive work are all admirable. Even his shot isn't actually that bad, in that he more often than not can drive the ball hard without many wayward shots, he just needs to develop his game.

I say this as objectively as I can, as he's not someone I was fussed about selling this past summer when the rumours came out due to his off field behaviour. That said, I'm willing to give the benefit of the doubt, as Pippo requested he be kept. If Pippo's said that, it's a great sign that Pippo thinks he can behave and act professionally, unlike Balotelli who was a far more controversial sale and bigger name (with that sale Pippo's set a precedence as to what behaviour is expected).

Other fans can say what they want about Niang, but at 19 he's still got his whole career ahead of him and he is very much a diamond in the rough. It's a case of whether any coach can really get the best out of him, because if he plays to his potential, we're talking about a devastating player.

(09-13-2014, 09:16 PM)Jokka Wrote: [ -> ]Same Interista's said Cristante had WC potential after his first game

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Some interesting quotes from Primavera coach Brocchi today. He was saying our strategy's to promote youth to first team. He even said some could be playing Serie A next season. Obviously I think he's talking out his ass after Cristante's sale but maybe not. The 3 best Primavera players (De Santis, Locatelli, Mastour) will be 17/18 next year. I think that's too young so they'll probably be promoted season after. Interestingly a lot of ageing fodders (Essien, Torres, Muntari, Mexes) contracts will be expiring then.

Maybe Brocchi believes what he says. What will happen when they come into the senior set up is more worrying and that's not his decision.

(09-14-2014, 10:03 AM)ACMILAN1983 Wrote: [ -> ]A lot of us have had issues with the way Niang's played in Milan many times, but you can't deny his potential. His decision making is poor and his shot lacks precision, but beyond that he's got a great physique at 19, pace, decent movement, technical quality and his workrate and defensive work are all admirable. Even his shot isn't actually that bad, in that he more often than not can drive the ball hard without many wayward shots, he just needs to develop his game.

I say this as objectively as I can, as he's not someone I was fussed about selling this past summer when the rumours came out due to his off field behaviour. That said, I'm willing to give the benefit of the doubt, as Pippo requested he be kept. If Pippo's said that, it's a great sign that Pippo thinks he can behave and act professionally, unlike Balotelli who was a far more controversial sale and bigger name (with that sale Pippo's set a precedence as to what behaviour is expected).

Other fans can say what they want about Niang, but at 19 he's still got his whole career ahead of him and he is very much a diamond in the rough. It's a case of whether any coach can really get the best out of him, because if he plays to his potential, we're talking about a devastating player.

Totally agree. It would be foolish to get rid of him right now.
He should not just leave the club without any real chances to prove himself.
He looks like the kind of player that in three or four years time we'd be saying "oh my God, Niang, what a player, remember when he used to play for us when he was just 19?".

Jokka, age matters because he's got 10+ years of career left in him and has great potential. Of course you can compare him to other that are his age, but keep in mind that players develop in different ways and play in different circumstances. Out of the 28 games that you say Niang played, how many did he start. How many did he play as the focal point of the attack? On the other side, Berrardi for example played all his games from the start, in a team that played on the counter, with hopes of getting him the ball every opportunity possible. I'm not saying that Niang is a better player now because clearly Berrardi has proven to be that at this moment...but saying that Niang is no good is extreme.
Similarly if when they were 19 you compared Vieira, Inzaghi, Toni, Etc, etc...to others that at 19 were great but then faded out, you'd be making a mistake.

Dev, you have a point about Poli. I hope he becomes more useful to us this year compared to last. About his successful passes number, I agree that those numbers show that he is reliable in possession...but for me a player in his position on the field should do something with the possession. Way too many of his passes are "negative" and a lot of times slow down our game. His offensive contribution is just not what it should be and it would be interesting to be able to see how many of those passes were made in the attacking third, vertically, if they created an opportunity, under pressure, etc. I just don't think numbers like pass completion rate tell the whole story. In any case, like I said, I hope he contributes more this season. About my thoughts on that midfield, I think Muntari contributes more on both ends of the field and that's why I had him in there instead of Poli. (I hope Poli can change this and like you, I think he can, but I don't think he's shown it yet) De Jong to anchor the mid while Bonaventura to do what Poli can't, and that's to be more of an attacking threat out of midfield rather then just hold possession.

(09-14-2014, 10:03 AM)ACMILAN1983 Wrote: [ -> ]A lot of us have had issues with the way Niang's played in Milan many times, but you can't deny his potential. His decision making is poor and his shot lacks precision, but beyond that he's got a great physique at 19, pace, decent movement, technical quality and his workrate and defensive work are all admirable. Even his shot isn't actually that bad, in that he more often than not can drive the ball hard without many wayward shots, he just needs to develop his game.

I say this as objectively as I can, as he's not someone I was fussed about selling this past summer when the rumours came out due to his off field behaviour. That said, I'm willing to give the benefit of the doubt, as Pippo requested he be kept. If Pippo's said that, it's a great sign that Pippo thinks he can behave and act professionally, unlike Balotelli who was a far more controversial sale and bigger name (with that sale Pippo's set a precedence as to what behaviour is expected).

Other fans can say what they want about Niang, but at 19 he's still got his whole career ahead of him and he is very much a diamond in the rough. It's a case of whether any coach can really get the best out of him, because if he plays to his potential, we're talking about a devastating player.

Sorry this actually made me laugh especially 'devastating player' bit. I agree Niang's got great physicality but that's it. What's the point of playing him winger/striker if he can't finish/pass? You admitted yourself his decision making and finishing's poor. Player's don't suddenly develop amazing finishing/tactical intelligence over time. You can definitely improve but can't change the fundamentals. Just like you can't significantly improve innate speed, explosiveness etc. If you compare stats of current champions at Niang's age you'll see the difference.

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(09-14-2014, 01:39 PM)nefremo Wrote: [ -> ]Jokka, age matters because he's got 10+ years of career left in him and has great potential. Of course you can compare him to other that are his age, but keep in mind that players develop in different ways and play in different circumstances. Out of the 28 games that you say Niang played, how many did he start. How many did he play as the focal point of the attack? On the other side, Berrardi for example played all his games from the start, in a team that played on the counter, with hopes of getting him the ball every opportunity possible. I'm not saying that Niang is a better player now because clearly Berrardi has proven to be that at this moment...but saying that Niang is no good is extreme.
Similarly if when they were 19 you compared Vieira, Inzaghi, Toni, Etc, etc...to others that at 19 were great but then faded out, you'd be making a mistake.

Think I've addressed most points in reply to Dev. Niang averaged 40mins over 28 games aka roughly 13 full matches. He couldn't find the back of the net once. Allegri said it best when saying "Niang was dubbed a phenomenon but is merely a good player". Niang's got potential to become a good squad player but he's no champion. Certainly not a Ballon d'Or winner or better than Messi like he said

Again you go on and make a point about comparing with "other players his age". It's ok to compare them, but to write one off at that age is ridiculous. So many things change for a 19 yr olds. Some improve and some don't. Some fulfil their potential and some don't. And come on, adding the minutes that he played to come up with "full games"? You can't add 4-5 20 min substitute appearances in the 70th minute under god knows what circumstances, just to be able to say - "there, that's equal to a full game". It's not equal to a full game that you would start, never. It doesn't work that way. He may not be a Ballo D'or quality as that's ridiculous I agree, but he is not useless and hopeless either.

I couldn't disagree more with your comment that you "can't develop finishing and tactical" ability with time. I'm sorry, but that's a laughable statement, because out all attributes in football, those are the two (especially tactical intelligence) that are shaped over time. Finishing is another one as players get better/smarter with time and age as they figure out their angles and especially awareness and calmness in front of goal. You agree that players CAN improve on them, but can't suddenly develop these attributes into amazing. No, not right away they can't, but like I said these are attributes that keep improving as players age. There is nothing, absolutely nothing to suggest that Niang can't develops these attributes. Plenty of now world class footballers had terrible finishing and tactical awareness when they were 19. Fundamentals can be improved for as long as you play. And who's to say that Niang's fundamentals are terrible anyway.

And I say all this as an outside perspective because I'm not a big fan of Niang's. But I realize that he has talent and potential and I'm not going to say (at 19) that he's not good enough to make it.

(09-14-2014, 05:12 PM)nefremo Wrote: [ -> ]Again you go on and make a point about comparing with "other players his age". It's ok to compare them, but to write one off at that age is ridiculous. So many things change for a 19 yr olds. Some improve and some don't. Some fulfil their potential and some don't. And come on, adding the minutes that he played to come up with "full games"? You can't add 4-5 20 min substitute appearances in the 70th minute under god knows what circumstances, just to be able to say - "there, that's equal to a full game". It's not equal to a full game that you would start, never. It doesn't work that way. He may not be a Ballo D'or quality as that's ridiculous I agree, but he is not useless and hopeless either.

I couldn't disagree more with your comment that you "can't develop finishing and tactical" ability with time. I'm sorry, but that's a laughable statement, because out all attributes in football, those are the two (especially tactical intelligence) that are shaped over time. Finishing is another one as players get better/smarter with time and age as they figure out their angles and especially awareness and calmness in front of goal. You agree that players CAN improve on them, but can't suddenly develop these attributes into amazing. No, not right away they can't, but like I said these are attributes that keep improving as players age. There is nothing, absolutely nothing to suggest that Niang can't develops these attributes. Plenty of now world class footballers had terrible finishing and tactical awareness when they were 19. Fundamentals can be improved for as long as you play. And who's to say that Niang's fundamentals are terrible anyway.

And I say all this as an outside perspective because I'm not a big fan of Niang's. But I realize that he has talent and potential and I'm not going to say (at 19) that he's not good enough to make it.

Sorry think you have problems reading/understanding what I said. I never wrote Niang off. I said he has potential to become a good squad player not champion. I also never said finishing/decision making can't be improved over time. In fact I said the complete opposite to a point. You can't go from having terrible finishing/decision making to top level no matter how hard you train. Who said his fundamentals are terrible? Most people on Milan forums agree Niang can't finish to save his life. His stats back up this point. Tell me which WC footballers had terrible finishing at 19? I'm intrigued to know.

This is what you wrote...."Player's don't suddenly develop amazing finishing/tactical intelligence over time. You can definitely improve but can't change the fundamentals. Just like you can't significantly improve innate speed, explosiveness etc. If you compare stats of current champions at Niang's age you'll see the difference."

That to me clearly means that you say "players don't suddenly develop amazing finishing/tactical intelligence over time." I don't even have to hangs the words. These are your words. Than in the following sentence you backtrack and say that "you can definitely improve but can't change the fundamentals". This clearly means that you think Niang's fundamentals are not good enough, and even if he improves he can't become "amazing" in these attributes. I just simply don't agree with that.

About players that started off their career slowly but clearly improved over time....there are far too many. Vieri is one - only scored 3 goals in his first two seasons as an 18 and 19 year old. Played 25 games.
Luca Toni scored 10 goals in his first 60 games at the same age and didn't start scoring in bunches until he was well into his 20s.
Thieri Henry was terrible at Juventus at 21 and only scored 3 goals.
Diego Costa had only scored 5 goals in his entire career when he was 19 and went through a few different clubs. Atletico even sent him on loan to Braga where he couldn't score any goals. Then he played a season at Celta as a starting striker and struggled to score 5 in 30 appearances.
Do Natale only scored 6 goals in 33 appearances at the age of 20...all in slower league. Look how that turned out.
There are tons more that you can find if you want to waste time looking at statistics. These are just a few that I knew from the top of my head that started their careers slow and then picked up.

Lol still not getting it are you? I stand by everything I said. You can only improve skills to a point as with anything in life. If you haven't got the innate ability your ceilings lower than somebody who has. That's why Niang's stats are laughable compared to players of a similar age. As for the players mentioned, at least they scored goals! Not all of them started their careers at strong teams like Milan either. Btw Serie A was a lot tougher for young players then too.

Just a quick comment.

Ibra and Drogba, two of the top strikers over the past 10 yrs. Their records of goal scoring at 19 is not that much better than Niang, and mind you both of them played in lesser divisions than Niang did at 17.

Actually Drogba didn't even make the senior team of Le Mans till 20 or 21 and he scored 7 goals in his first season.

while Ibra scored 12 goals during his first season at 19 for Malmo FF.

They might not be the Messi or Ronaldo but if Niang turned out to be close to either of them, that's more than a squad player in my book.