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I fail to see why the return of Ibrahimovic would not right away bring the team back to CL zone. He basically is going to take over two or three (current Milan) players' job and could probably guarantee more wins against smaller sides. Yes, I didn't like Ibrahimovic before thinking he is an arrogant ass (he probably was and still is), but this guy has been grateful to Milan. He has basically badmouthed every other team he played, with the only exception of Milan. And, at the end of day, it is the results that speak the volume and I can only care about that. If I don't have to worry about the financial side of the deal, I would like to see him back. Milan players have now got used to loser mentality, and Ibrahimovic can help reverse that too.

I know that there will be argument that he and el Shaarawy don't co-exist and Ibrahimovic will demand balls all the time and probably stifle the growth of our youth. I am not an expert and can't evaluate the validity of that, but look what de Sciglio and el Shaarway have done in the past few seasons. One can always say it is injuries, but they certainly not done enough to show that we as a team can count on them yet. No one is dumb enough to call Ibrahimovic our future (though who knows? Luca Toni is 38 and had a fantastic season), but Milan is in such a pathetic situation that we can't afford thinking of future only. Yes, I wouldn't mind giving up a few seasons if we do have a long-term plan for the youngsters to grow and take over, but do you believe that Berlusconi will allow that? Of course not, he will demand we bring in 'champion players', he will demand at least a mix of short-term fix and long-run goals (if we are lucky). Who would be a better champion than Ibrahimovic? Another question, what other champions of his status would even consider coming to Milan now?

I don't want to go on and on, but I would not complain a bit if he comes back. It is funny that a few years ago I really didn't care for Ibrahimovic, and at the beginning of this summer I was indifferent, and now I am now more eager to have him back (I still have my concerns, of course).

EDIT: I am surprised that so many of us don't want Ibrahimovic back? Ibrahimovic won't be our future, but he can take us to the right track. Plus, We won't get any other real champions! Beggars can't be choosers!

EDIT 2: Don't worry too much about Milan's finance. First, it is not our money; second, if it is not "wasted" this way, it will certainly be wasted another way (perhaps more stupid way ).

Youre not ridiculous, but youre seriously comparing a fully fit and in form Ibrahimovic to Kaka who had like 50 games in 4 years with real, or Sheva who didnt play at all in Chelsea?

You are now being petty and trying to "win" an argument at all cost. First, no one is going to tear up existing contract, nor did I say anyone will. What I said is we wouldnt be turned down by our targets if we had some superstars in our team. Bacca and Bertolacci certainly are not superstars and I guarantee that in Ibra's 2 seasons here he'd bring us more than those two combined.

You keep twisting my words now. I said the team is build around superstars, and not the other way around. I also said signing Ibra, since he is the only one willing to come, would make other, younger superstars more willing to sign with us. You got to start somewhere if you want to build a winner. In those two years (and as Xu said, who's to say its gonna be only 2 years - look at Toni), Ibra can bring more to us than any currently avaliable player, both on and off the field. Placing in CL for 2 years would pay off those 50 millions alone and I'm sure we'd have more chance with Ibra than with Bacca and Bertolacci.

Let me conclude by repeating my first sentence:
Youre not ridiculous, but youre seriously comparing a fully fit and in form Ibrahimovic to Kaka who had like 50 games in 4 years with real, or Sheva who didnt play at all in Chelsea?

(06-29-2015, 05:08 PM)xudong Wrote: [ -> ]I fail to see why the return of Ibrahimovic would not right away bring the team back to CL zone. He basically is going to take over two or three (current Milan) players' job and could probably guarantee more wins against smaller sides. Yes, I didn't like Ibrahimovic before thinking he is an arrogant ass (he probably was and still is), but this guy has been grateful to Milan. He has basically badmouthed every other team he played, with the only exception of Milan. And, at the end of day, it is the results that speak the volume and I can only care about that. If I don't have to worry about the financial side of the deal, I would like to see him back. Milan players have now got used to loser mentality, and Ibrahimovic can help reverse that too.

I know that there will be argument that he and el Shaarawy don't co-exist and Ibrahimovic will demand balls all the time and probably stifle the growth of our youth. I am not an expert and can't evaluate the validity of that, but look what de Sciglio and el Shaarway have done in the past few seasons. One can always say it is injuries, but they certainly not done enough to show that we as a team can count on them yet. No one is dumb enough to call Ibrahimovic our future (though who knows? Luca Toni is 38 and had a fantastic season), but Milan is in such a pathetic situation that we can't afford thinking of future only. Yes, I wouldn't mind giving up a few seasons if we do have a long-term plan for the youngsters to grow and take over, but do you believe that Berlusconi will allow that? Of course not, he will demand we bring in 'champion players', he will demand at least a mix of short-term fix and long-run goals (if we are lucky). Who would be a better champion than Ibrahimovic? Another question, what other champions of his status would even consider coming to Milan now?

I don't want to go on and on, but I would not complain a bit if he comes back. It is funny that a few years ago I really didn't care for Ibrahimovic, and at the beginning of this summer I was indifferent, and now I am now more eager to have him back (I still have my concerns, of course).

Xu, there's a distinct reason why there are issues with your argument. I just highlighted it up there for you

Do you really think Bee's investment of 500M will be put totally into buying players?
If we're ready to spend 150M this mercato, just how much will be left for the coming years? Money is NEVER a non-issue, especially when buying a mere talent today costs upwards of 20M (as opposed to when Kaka cost us just 8M).

As much as I enjoy the hype for Class players, they don't come as cheap as they used to anymore. Technology and the Internet have made it that much harder to hide talented player from other teams, and keep information secret. And once a player has been tipped for greatness, their prices shoot up tenfold within weeks, if not months (Just look at Jesse Rodriguez in the World Cup). One or two good performances, and a hundred scouts are on your player already.

Ibra may have a winning mentality, but it takes more than just one player to influence an entire locker room, and considering that SES doesn't like him, that already divides the locker room somewhat. So what's the solution to that? Are we going to sell off SES and other like minded players then?

Also, notice that Berlusconi has pretty much shut up about "Champions" and "Winning the League" this entire summer. He knows all his trash talking from last season got us nowhere, he's trying to save face. Even Galliani hasn't talked up a storm about "Champions" anymore, because in the last two years they've finally been forced to face the pile of shit that they shat out on the fans over the last half decade. I don't see them doing anything stupid like talking up a shitstorm until they actually have something to show for it. For once, I actually welcome it. At least our team doesn't have to stand out like the joke it was in the last few mercatos.

@ Stitch: Ibra is a declining force, his stats in the past three years have proven as much. And Kaka not playing doesn't take anything away from his star power. In fact the one reason why we have SES now is because he idolised Kaka. How many such players out there have said the same about Ibra? In all the years he's played football, just how many players have actually come out and said that they specifically want to play on a team with Ibra BECAUSE he's on the team? I'd like to see you name 5.

Also, even if Ibra was able to attract Star talents to play for Milan, we have to buy them first. Again that is an issue with money, which as much as it is right now, is NOT endless. How much do you think paying for a Star Talent would cost? When players like Bacca and Bertolacci combined cost us 50M? We're not dealing with just the player, we have to deal with their agents AND the clubs that own them. It's not as easy as you make it sound. So how do you propose we even reach the CL if all we have is one Ibra, possibly one Star talent and a very mediocre team behind them? THAT is the most ridiculous thing I've heard all day.

Lots of Ibra discussions going on here, which is really interesting given Ibra's status in the soccer world today. Personally, I would welcome him back with open arms because he fits with our current set up perfectly for a few reasons.

Ibra is a great fit for the Milan culture. For better or worse, Milan under Berlusconi has never been about slightly above average players play every match like their hair is on fire to win games. Champagne football is the way Milan has always played and that is just team culture. Certainly, we would have been much better off with a different approach the last couple of seasons, but that's just not us. Ibra is about as flamboyant a player as there is in soccer today with his physical presence, skill set and swagger. Having him in Milan as one of our leaders will ensure the Milan culture that has been lost with the likes of Muntari and Essien is restored.

Tactic wise, Ibra to me, is one of those Messi or CR7 type of players. For players like that, you don't build a model and make them fit in, you build the model around them. Sure, Ibra is not one of the hardest workers out there when it comes to playing defense and running around, but you can make fairly similar arguments about most elite footballers in the world. Messi isn't exactly known as a guy who plays hard defense; CR7 can be selfish with the ball and the goal. But you don't hear Barca and Real complaining about their star players not track back and forth when they are out there, do you? Ibra's skills, creativity and passing makes him almost a forward-CAM hybrid type of player. Having him on the field allows the midfield to spend less energy on creating and focus more on defense, which can actually give the team balance. Without Ibra, our midfield needs to become creative, which is difficult for Monto, De Jong, Bertolacci or whoever they end up signing, as it is not likely we land a Rui Costa type of player in the market. Ibra is certainly not the same player he was at 29, but he is still producing at a very high level for a player his age and with his mileage. He had some injury problems and probably world cup hangover last year and still ended up with 19 goals. If he can give us 19 goals this year, he'd be a vast improvement over anything the hell we have on the team by a land slide. And if he can chip in 8-10 assist to Bacca and Bertolacci, we'd be a CL contender.

Ibra's wages are certainly heavy. But when it comes to money, we always need to do a cost benefit analysis. Having Ibra gives us a great chance at making the CL, which is worth at least 50M a year if we only play group stage. For 9M a year salary, that is a strong return on investment. Would you rather be a CL contender with Ibra on 9M a year, or a EL contender with someone like Pazzini on 2M a year? The cost benefit ratio isn't even close between the two, in my opinion. Management is currently trying to reverse the course on a steep decline that we have been on for three years. And the key to that reversal in fortune lies in the annual qualification to the CL. The tournament is simply too lucrative for any club to miss out regularly and still expect to be profitable. One or two good years from Ibra can take us to CL consistently, which will generate revenue to fund the team and start a new cycle for us. With the rapid growth in TV money in soccer, a team can be sustainable even without rich owners if ran properly. We can be like that too but it has to start with CL qualifications every year, and Ibra, for all his flaws, is the best candidate to help guide us there.

(06-29-2015, 06:41 PM)slifersd Wrote: [ -> ]Lots of Ibra discussions going on here, which is really interesting given Ibra's status in the soccer world today. Personally, I would welcome him back with open arms because he fits with our current set up perfectly for a few reasons.

Ibra is a great fit for the Milan culture. For better or worse, Milan under Berlusconi has never been about slightly above average players play every match like their hair is on fire to win games. Champagne football is the way Milan has always played and that is just team culture. Certainly, we would have been much better off with a different approach the last couple of seasons, but that's just not us. Ibra is about as flamboyant a player as there is in soccer today with his physical presence, skill set and swagger. Having him in Milan as one of our leaders will ensure the Milan culture that has been lost with the likes of Muntari and Essien is restored.

Tactic wise, Ibra to me, is one of those Messi or CR7 type of players. For players like that, you don't build a model and make them fit in, you build the model around them. Sure, Ibra is not one of the hardest workers out there when it comes to playing defense and running around, but you can make fairly similar arguments about most elite footballers in the world. Messi isn't exactly known as a guy who plays hard defense; CR7 can be selfish with the ball and the goal. But you don't hear Barca and Real complaining about their star players not track back and forth when they are out there, do you? Ibra's skills, creativity and passing makes him almost a forward-CAM hybrid type of player. Having him on the field allows the midfield to spend less energy on creating and focus more on defense, which can actually give the team balance. Without Ibra, our midfield needs to become creative, which is difficult for Monto, De Jong, Bertolacci or whoever they end up signing, as it is not likely we land a Rui Costa type of player in the market. Ibra is certainly not the same player he was at 29, but he is still producing at a very high level for a player his age and with his mileage. He had some injury problems and probably world cup hangover last year and still ended up with 19 goals. If he can give us 19 goals this year, he'd be a vast improvement over anything the hell we have on the team by a land slide. And if he can chip in 8-10 assist to Bacca and Bertolacci, we'd be a CL contender.

Ibra's wages are certainly heavy. But when it comes to money, we always need to do a cost benefit analysis. Having Ibra gives us a great chance at making the CL, which is worth at least 50M a year if we only play group stage. For 9M a year salary, that is a strong return on investment. Would you rather be a CL contender with Ibra on 9M a year, or a EL contender with someone like Pazzini on 2M a year? The cost benefit ratio isn't even close between the two, in my opinion. Management is currently trying to reverse the course on a steep decline that we have been on for three years. And the key to that reversal in fortune lies in the annual qualification to the CL. The tournament is simply too lucrative for any club to miss out regularly and still expect to be profitable. One or two good years from Ibra can take us to CL consistently, which will generate revenue to fund the team and start a new cycle for us. With the rapid growth in TV money in soccer, a team can be sustainable even without rich owners if ran properly. We can be like that too but it has to start with CL qualifications every year, and Ibra, for all his flaws, is the best candidate to help guide us there.

I really wanted to take you seriously. I swear I really did, but your mentioning of Messi and Ronaldo not tracking back to defend, coupled with your "World Cup Hangover", pretty much effectively ended all arguments.

Messi


Ronaldo


I couldn't find one for Ibra, try as I may, but I'm sure you'll be able to do so for me, eh?

Oh, and for your entertainment's sake:
Please check the "World Cup 2014 Teams" section.

I'm sure his "hangover"really affected him

@Ryo: I don't know how much money we will have for transfer, and it probably forever remains mysterious considering the culture of this club. In my opinion though, spending on Ibrahimovic would not have much of an impact on others as you claim. I don't think he will cost too much out of the "official" transfer kit (if there is one). Maybe we really have a large transfer allowance; even if he comes after our money has been exhausted, I am sure that Berlusconi will take it out of his own pocket. Similarly, if we don't buy back Ibrahimovic, it doesn't mean that we will for sure invest every penny of the savings into players we need - the money would be idle or may go towards useless players, new or old.

and, I don't think we should just only look at the cost side when we try to evaluate the financial feasibility. In the past few seasons, we got rid of many high-paid players but we also lost quite a chunk through ticket sales and CL money. When Ibrahimovic comes back, ticket sales will go back for sure; if he comes back and brings Milan back to CL (in my opinion, it is quite probable), ticket sales will further climb up, and let's not forget CL money is easily 20m or 30+ these years (how much did Juventus get this season? 70m?). I am quite positive that Ibrahimovic's return would be self-financed through increased ticket sales and CL money already. There are also shirt sales and possible sponsorship deals too.

For this Milan, Ibrahimovic is a league of his own. I have a feeling that he will come back at the end of August which would be icing on the cake (because this guy probably does not need much time to get into the team), but if not I am sure that we will have a complete, functioning team already without him too. Of course when he returns, one or two players will be affected, and yes that could likely be el Shaarawy, but I want to see el Shaarawy take on competition with the right attitude. He is no longer a baby, and we expect him to grow up and lead the team, not to avoid Ibrahimovic. If el Shaarawy can up his game and prove his value with strong competition from Ibrahimovic (I actually think they need not necessarily compete, Ibrahimovic could help el Shaarawy too), then isn't that all what we want to see? Also, Mihajlovic is known as a coach who is willing and capable to adapt his tactics to available players, so if everyone is having good games, I am sure that it would not be too big a headache as before.

I still see we're linked with Axel Witsel, even after Andrea Bertolacci signed. Other links today inlcude Alessio Romagnoli and Erik Lamela.

I saw some reports on the tension between Romagnoli and Roma management which gives Milan hope, but I am not sure if Milan is sincere in this defender. For me, Laporte remains a dream (not that I know him well, I am just a bandwagoner. ), but talented Italians would be welcome any day.

http://www.football-italia.net/68474/rom...n-yes-juve

Apparently no Romagnoli. If Ibra was here, I dont think players would eliminate us before we even expressed interest.

(06-29-2015, 05:30 PM)Ryo Wrote: [ -> ]Kaka not playing doesn't take anything away from his star power

and you expect someone to take you seriously?

(06-29-2015, 07:30 PM)xudong Wrote: [ -> ]@Ryo: I don't know how much money we will have for transfer, and it probably forever remains mysterious considering the culture of this club. In my opinion though, spending on Ibrahimovic would not have much of an impact on others as you claim. I don't think he will cost too much out of the "official" transfer kit (if there is one). Maybe we really have a large transfer allowance; even if he comes after our money has been exhausted, I am sure that Berlusconi will take it out of his own pocket. Similarly, if we don't buy back Ibrahimovic, it doesn't mean that we will for sure invest every penny of the savings into players we need - the money would be idle or may go towards useless players, new or old.

and, I don't think we should just only look at the cost side when we try to evaluate the financial feasibility. In the past few seasons, we got rid of many high-paid players but we also lost quite a chunk through ticket sales and CL money. When Ibrahimovic comes back, ticket sales will go back for sure; if he comes back and brings Milan back to CL (in my opinion, it is quite probable), ticket sales will further climb up, and let's not forget CL money is easily 20m or 30+ these years (how much did Juventus get this season? 70m?). I am quite positive that Ibrahimovic's return would be self-financed through increased ticket sales and CL money already. There are also shirt sales and possible sponsorship deals too.

For this Milan, Ibrahimovic is a league of his own. I have a feeling that he will come back at the end of August which would be icing on the cake (because this guy probably does not need much time to get into the team), but if not I am sure that we will have a complete, functioning team already without him too. Of course when he returns, one or two players will be affected, and yes that could likely be el Shaarawy, but I want to see el Shaarawy take on competition with the right attitude. He is no longer a baby, and we expect him to grow up and lead the team, not to avoid Ibrahimovic. If el Shaarawy can up his game and prove his value with strong competition from Ibrahimovic (I actually think they need not necessarily compete, Ibrahimovic could help el Shaarawy too), then isn't that all what we want to see? Also, Mihajlovic is known as a coach who is willing and capable to adapt his tactics to available players, so if everyone is having good games, I am sure that it would not be too big a headache as before.

You're putting in a lot of "if"s in there. And perhaps you are right in justifying his transfer considering Berlusconi's fetish for Marquee signings, but another thing to consider is the fact that we weren't ridden with huge debts the first time around when we brought him in. Also, I doubt many would go and buy a new shirt if he came in, I know I wouldn't (I still have his old one after all and I highly doubt I could wear more than one anyway). Berlusconi has been preaching for the past 5 years that we need to live within our means. In the years that we had CL football, that meant a transfer kit of 30M max, basically that's the bare minimum of when we had Group stages. Considering that we've had two years of no CL football already, but still brought in players, how much of a debt do you think we were at?

Also, Bee has mentioned at least a few times that his vision entails that we have Milan listed on the stock market, be it local or overseas. Now I'm no expert, but from what I've read, to actually get listed on stock markets, you have to have continuing positive revenues and healthy financials for at least three and a half years straight (for Hong Kong at least, things get stricter for US and European markets). Bee's investments should be in part to service all debts in the Milan Holding Company in order to prepare for such a listing. The indication here is that 500M is not entirely for player purchases. Just think, if we actually spent 50M+ already from our coffers, just how much do you actually think is left for us right now?

Also, Ibra was sold for 60M+. Even if PSG were willing to let go of him (which they have adamantly indicated that they are not), you cannot expect anything less than a 45M+ pricetag (especially if he's so "fit and in form" as some of us here are describing him to be). Just how much money do you think would be left for any additional transfers before and after we get him?

500M may sound like a lot, IF it were only for player transfers. But you know, and I know that it's not, and therein lies the biggest problem of bringing him back. Revenues from him aren't an assured thing, even if his quality is undeniable. Football is a multi-billion dollar business, but at the end of the day you still have to take into account of checks and balances. To count major revenues before you even bought a player, or to even consider that he would earn enough for a transfer to be self-sufficient, would be the very height of imprudent business accounting. You cannot put a price on sentiment, but you can't make predictions on revenues either. In fact, wasn't one of the very reasons why we had to sell Ibra and Thiago after finishing Second in the league was precisely because we were in the Red? What does that say exactly for Self-sufficient transfers, eh?

To prove my point, can someone please report how many season tickets have been sold so far?

Not to mention that Ibra wants to win the CL at least once before he retires. He's reiterated that point more than once in his career. As we are now, we are the least qualified team to help fulfil his ambitions. Do you really think he would, just for sentiments sake, give up on his quest in order to help a struggling team to get back into the very Competition that he would be playing in should he not leave his current club? I think you make him out to be way more selfless than he really is. That's all I got to say.

@ Stitch, I expect anyone who's been a Milan fan long enough to take me very seriously. As for you and your weak comeback, I really don't care. I'm basing my discussions on financials and rational considerations. You're going by "oh he can definitely score the same number of goals as last year, hence we're going to be better" and "oh he'll definitely bring in star quality players who will help us get to the Champions League". Who makes more sense?

I'm still waiting for your 5 player list here.