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+--- Thread: Summer Mercato (/showthread.php?tid=582)
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RE: Summer Mercato - Rosson3r - 09-03-2014
Honda in, van ginkel out
RE: Summer Mercato - Aficio - 09-03-2014
You guys forgot Montolivo
He'll come back soon.
RE: Summer Mercato - Mystik - 09-03-2014
We still don't know what shape he will be in post-injury so we can't assume he'll be able to play at the quality we need. There's a lot of "wait and see" regarding this team..makes me a little anxious for the international break to finish so we can get back to club football
RE: Summer Mercato - Alan - 09-03-2014
the thing about the "milan will do anything for money" arguement with cristante is that, there is a better way to make money. you play your young players with hot reputations and then when an EPL team comes looking you sell them for over 20m.
ORRRR
you could sell them to a team that has consistently made massive profits on the transfer league by identifying young talent and then developing. Benfica will never see the best of cristante, that will be Juve, Madrid, barcelona Man U, chelsea or man city. the difference is they will give benfica over 20m for him. Even if he fails he's not money lost, he's a youth product, the only reason he isn't guaranteed a game is because we're bending over trying to find other playerss. the thing is, the only way we lose by not signing Van Ginkel and keeping and playing Cristante is that maybe we will play a little worse. we can't seriously believe this is a Serie A winning side and that van ginkel will be the difference. how much is the contribution of talented young player really worth, I'd say if van ginkel is to make an impact he needs to play better than 6m rated player. If he does that then we lose him at the end of the season to chelsea or are forced to pay much more for him. Cristante was worth 6m because of the low amount of info on him and rare appearances, to raise his value all we needed to do was start him 20 games.
basically, both players are gambles on the field, young and inexperienced, except that the gamble on Cristante would cost us 6m on a lost offer and the gamble on Van ginkel will cost us however much another team wants to value either van ginkel himself, or another replacement player (which includes another gamble on a player, so much gambling and risk is poor business). If cristante is good, then the gamble has cost us perhaps 15m or 20m money not even taking in to account van ginkel or his replacements cost.
Essentially, the only way we win doing business this way is if van ginkel is rubbish, so we can send him back without regrets. we have done a deal that requires our players to perform poorly, and people wonder why we're going down hill.
RE: Summer Mercato - nefremo - 09-03-2014
Dev, you are one of the posters that I respect the most...but you are in full blown panic mode now and blowing many things out of proportion.
I can easily take your post and make it positive by changing a few details in there which you assumed MIGHT happen in the future. Bonaventura has done nothing to show he can get to the next level, but Cristante has? Please let's not use the amount of money other teams pay for our players as a measuring tool.
I agree that a few years ago we had older players that put us in the CL and now we have older players that don't guarantee that.....but we also had to pay wages out of our ass to have those players and that screwed us big time that we eventually had to sell them to cover our debts (Berlu won't do it anymore). Now we have players that don't offer guarantees of CL, but the wage bill and expenses are so low that if we don't get into the CL we won't have to sell anyone we don't want to. So not having a Silva to sell for 50mil becomes a little less of an issue. It doesn't mean that we won't sell someone next year, but it also doesn't mean we won't get into the CL just because we don't have a Silva.
I consider this mercato a good one because for the first time in years I think that we have moved towards being self-sufficient. At the same time we didn't give out any crazy contracts and lowered the wage bill. All while I truly think that we improved our squad, not only over last year's team but also the previous one too where we finished 3rd. I think we will see a change of direction now especially if we make it to the CL, which we have a real shot at doing. This team is built to break even without CL money. If we do make it into the CL, then that's extra funds. I know we always say "next year, next mercato, on and on" and we have grown tired of it, but I truly for the first time feel like this summer paved the road towards being able to do something in the market and being self-sufficient.
Galliani did a good job with what he was allowed to do. Berlu is the one (or should I say Fininvest) that won't allow Milan to spend, that's evident. They don't want Milan to go in the red as they don't want to cover the debts any longer.
So all in all, it was a good mercato keeping in mind what happened and knowing the background story of our problems. Yes we lost Cristante, but it happens. It is what it is. Manchester lost Pogba for the same reasons, Barcelona lost Alcantara for the same reasons, etc, etc. This is the way it goes. I don't know which values that were lost you are talking about, because it has always been the same. Only that in the past we didn't have to sell players because of our financial position. But Milan has not been a team to develop youngsters for 25 years. If there was a really talented one like Maldini for example, we just kept them because we could. About the lies and all the drama with Galliani and Berlusconi...it's always been the same.
RE: Summer Mercato - Mystik - 09-03-2014
You have to admit though that given the fact that we do not have the money to be spending like Chelsea, City, etc we inherently need to rely on our youth products and scouting system to acquire quality players because we can't currently afford to buy the finished product. We were able to get away with it in the past because Berlusconi used to fit the bill and just buy stars to fix any shortcomings. IMO, an important part of being self sufficient given the current economic climate is to have a steady influx of quality players from our youth system. Next thing you know, we lose our best player in that Primavera year. I think that is really the source of all the outrage. Finally, I don't think you can really compare us to Barcelona and United because they have more money available to them to spend. We currently have very little. We have to approach transfers and youth development very differently as a result.
That being said, the squad is better than last year's squad and we did lose some of the crap players who were here on large wages. Galliani will get a passing grade from me..but I can't help but be disappointed that we didn't do more to keep our star youth player.
RE: Summer Mercato - Gio-mania - 09-03-2014
You guys have presented some valid points from both sides about the whole Cristante ordeal. As I see it he was right to leave given the circumstances but I am left perplexed as to why the circumstances materialised. In other words we can only speculate as to whether it was warranted for Galliani, Allegri, Seedorf and Pippo to show so little faith in him or if they royally screwed up by bringing in Van Ginkel (Bonaventura was likely a replacement, and Essien is a mistake from the previous transfer window - nothing we could do about it this summer).
I wont get into a qualitative discussion about our mercato since I know too little of our squad and the new players, but I think the team is stronger today than 12 months ago. So I ran through our numbers:
• Wage balance acc. for tax: € 10M (€ 40M saved from sales/departures, € 30M spent on newbies)
• Transfer balance: € 14.5M (€ 27.5M earned, € 13M spent)
• TOTAL BALANCE: € 24.5M
Let me know if you want me to show my math. I might be off with a transfer fee or wage here and there, but this is the general idea.
Yes Galliani managed to trim down a lot of fat. I definitely think he deserves credit for it and that he couldn't do much better, though I'm well aware he created the mess in the first place. But 75% of the money saved has been designated to new players. Whether the fresh replacements are better or not I don't know. Also keep in mind that a few players will return from loans next year.
All in all the 24.5M made is 10-15M shy of what we'll be losing out on in Champions League revenue. So unless our "original" transfer budget exceeded that amount, it should come as no surprise that we didn't spend more on the market. While Galliani may have been slimy misleading the fans by saying we'll buy Iturbe/Cerci/whomever once we get rid of Kakà, Robinho, Matri etc., it does make sense given the circumstances. They money isn't magically disappearing any where. It is covering our losses. So unless the club could've gotten money invested from the outside this mercato couldn't have gone any better economically. The ndividual, technical and tactical considerations are another thing completely.
RE: Summer Mercato - slifersd - 09-03-2014
(09-03-2014, 09:53 AM)ACMILAN1983 Wrote: I find it completely bizarre that anyone considers this mercato positive. For the slight improvements we see in some areas (1 CB and 1 Gk mainly, attack is highly debatable and arguably worse and midfield remains the same, only without Cristante and with Van Ginkel), the short term signings are surely worrying. This is how the squad will look in two years as it stands (Van Ginkel and Armero aren't included as they are only loans):
Name (age in 2016)...
Diego López (34)
Michael Agazzi (32)
Christian Abbiati (39)
Adil Rami (30)
Alex (34)
Cristian Zapata (29)
Philippe Mexès (34)
Daniele Bonera (35)
Michelangelo Albertazzi (25)
Cristian Zaccardo (35)
Mattia De Sciglio (23)
Ignazio Abate (29)
Nigel de Jong (31)
Michael Essien (33)
Riccardo Montolivo (31)
Andrea Poli (26)
Sulley Muntari (32)
Keisuke Honda (30)
Riccardo Saponara (24)
Giacomo Bonaventura (27)
Hachim Mastour (18)
Stephan El Shaarawy (23)
Jérémy Ménez (29)
Fernando Torres (32)
Giampaolo Pazzini (32)
M'Baye Niang (21)
10 players (less than half of the squad) will still be in their 20s. How many of Albertazzi, Bonaventura (who while I consider a fair signing, hasn't shown anything to suggest that he'll be able to step up at the highest level), Poli, Saponara, Niang and Mastour (who remember will still only be 18) can we really expect to step up and make a significant difference in the first team?
Meanwhile, Milan need to consider replacing most of the 30+ (16 players) group too. All 3 goalkeepers will need replacing (Diego Lopez will need competition at least), in CBs, the club only have Rami, Zapata and Albertazzi of a reasonable age to compete. In midfield, all the starters will need replacing and unless the likes of Poli and Saponara step up to show they can genuinely offer something to this group, they will need replacing too. In attack, none of the players offer any sort of guarantees (including SES who is only just returning from a season out injured).
Truth is, this situation looks strangely similar to the situation a handful of years back, where Milan relied on an ageing group of players and struggled to transition into a new generation. Difference is, back then the ageing group of players were of the highest quality and were still making CL spots every year, while this time around the group is significantly of lesser quality and are considered challengers for EL spots.
Back then Milan also had assets like Zlatan and Thiago Silva to sell to cover debts, while in two years, the only two who are likely to reach market values to sell on at a high price are SES and DES. There's also the massive, MASSIVE risk that the club don't even reach CL spots this year, meaning for those years they have no revenue from the competition to help fund the market. The selling of Cristante and the lack of opportunities afforded to most youngsters coming through to allow the likes of Essien and Muntari to play means it's probably unlikely we'll see any significant influx of youth players coming (and with the numbers required, that would be a major risk with high chances of failure in itself). So question is, Milan might appear pretty competitive now, but how does it remain competitive in the next two years?
Some might think this lack of faith is grounded in the Cristante deal (which I'm still extremely angry about), but fact is before the Balo sale I said I considered this mercato a C- or C at best. I then went on to say that I considered what Milan did after the Balo sale would determine the success of the mercato and I'm not impressed. If you don't have the resources to buy big, then you look at alternative solutions. Benfica, the club that Cristante went to and has Rui Costa (our ex-player) running the show haven't spent more that 10m on a signing in 3 years (Cristante was the second highest transfer fee they spent this summer) and the average age of their signings are always under 24 (23.7 on average). For two years running this club has reached the final of Europa League (beating out Italy's best along the way) and won the domestic title and took away Porto's dominance in the league in recent years. They only lost against Sevilla in EL last year in bizarre circumstances after dominating and realistically should have won the treble (they won the Portuguese cup). For me, that's pretty damn impressive achievement and a well run club.
I wish Pippo the best, even if I'm not impressed by his acceptance of this mercato, but I think it's going to require a minor miracle to get this club back on track in the next few years. I still watch our matches, in hope of seeing Pippo bring back some of our traditions on the pitch. However, I've often spoken about lost values in the club and until these are back from the top level management, then they're not coming back.
You are absolutely correct in that this Mercato did nothing for our future. If anything, we are worse off from a future perspective than we were entering it cause we lost our best young midfielder. But I guess that is the strategy these days for Milan, CL or bust. The players we got this year could (COULD, not will) help us get to CL, and realistically that is really the best we can hope for these days. Without CL money, no team in Europe will be able to maintain a high quality squad. Even if we produce a boat load of good young players, we will still lose them all before they take us to glory. I am not happy about the mercato, but I will settle for a mercato that at least makes some level of sense for the pleasant as opposed to our typical mercato where we screw up the future and the present all at the same time.
RE: Summer Mercato - Gabriel426 - 09-03-2014
I think for the time being Galliani did an Okay job mainly bc he sold Mario way below Market value and should have kept hold on Cristante instead of getting Van Ginkel and Bonaventura. Whether or not this team can make CL will determine the success of this transfer. But from the Lazio game, I think Pippo's style will be effective against top teams or teams willing to attack, while will struggle against teams who tends to be defensive.
also, pls don't compare Barca, Man U and others losing their youth players with Milan selling Cristante. since both Barca and ManU can afford to splash 30-50mil on a any given players plus both teams actually got tons of youths. Some of my ManU fans are piss that Welbeck got sold to Arsenal. As they think that ManU does not need Falcao and should have sold guys like Rooney and Young instead.
RE: Summer Mercato - nefremo - 09-03-2014
I am not comparing us with Barca and Man U. I am just giving an example of how they lost two of the world's bigget young stars because of the same reasons that we just lost Cristante. The fact that they can buy a superstar in that postition and we can't is a different matter.....but the concept is the same. Cristante wanted more playing time and he wasn't going to get as much as he wanted here because there are better players here then him RIGHT NOW. It was the same with Alcantara and Pogba at Man U at that time. Difference is they had world class players taking those guys's minutes and we have Muntari (just as an example) taking Cristante's minutes. Regardless, no coach in the world will sit the better player on the bench just to play the youngster. IT WON'T happen, unless it is in football manager where you can just restart the game. The youngster will get his minutes to develop (so was Cristante), but if they are not happy with that and they want more, then what do you do? We didn't just throw Cristante to the curb, we tried to reason with him.....but he chose something else and that's all there is to it. Now we have to look at what we got in our squad and move forward with it.