Week 01 HELLAS VERONA V AC Milan: Saturday 24th August

[WCmilan]

^ me either, terrible start.

[Revolver]

Good tactical analyses, but honestly I have problems even with first two screenshots. It's simply too exposed.
All players are too high. Funny, but first two pictures are really the reason for the other pictures.
On the first, imagine Zapata misplaced the pass, it's not uncommon, he does it often enough. Middle of the field is completely open. Niang is making the wrong move. Since Poli is on his place, he should move into the middle and not on the right, and we see that he plays his own tactics there. So, middle of the field is completely open, all quick players that we have are too high, except Zapata who has the ball. If Zapata misplaced the pass, we'd probably see a similar picture to the latest picture in the post, i.e. they would kill us on counter.

My point here is: You can't play an open game like this if you have three slow and weak midfielders. And none of them is actually a defensive midfielder. It's no coincidence that you can't see our midfielders in the shot even just before Verona scored. They're too high, too bad positioned, too slow, and, the biggest mistake, all of them expect that one of the other two needs to come back.

You can show me a million of screenshots, but after I watched the game, my conclusion is that Allegri put his midfield completely wrong. Three slow, weak midfielders who are barely average defensively. At the moment Verona players relaxed and saw their chance, they immediately started to kill us on counter.

And yet, it's not like we had a brilliant 15 minutes, we had ok 15 minutes at best, and our only chance came when we scored because of a moment of brilliance from Balotelli.

[Danny]

Excellent analysis from Dev there, a thoughtful post with a lot of work in it.

One thing however, as he pointed out, in the early part of this match we were fine. Reason for this is simple - Verona had not yet learned how soft we'd be through the middle. How static. As Dev says, we basically had a flat midfield 3 and the only one who ventured forward for most of the match was Poli. Once Verona scored and realised how poorly we were organised, especially at the back, they tore through us time and time again.

Monto is in terrible form at the moment and certainly isn't a DM. Yet was played as one. You cannot have a midfield 3 without a destroyer.

[ACMILAN1983]

Dev, great analysis and thanks for the screenshots. That perfectly summed up our afternoon yesterday. I always enjoy reading your analysis. I must say, most of the time I don't post things after you do as almost always you say the exact same things I want to say and I just don't want to repeat it all over again.

HOWEVER,
About the rest, I don't want to keep going in circles about certain things, but you said that Balotelli showed that he cared and showed the desire while others didn't. I failed to see that....unless the player you are talking about is Nocerino. The others, I thought all showed the same desire as Balotelli, which was simply not enough.
I also don't know why you said that you can understand his frustration with his teammates. Why? Why can you understand his frustration but not the other people's frustration with him. It's not like he was running his brains out making plays all over the place while the others were standing, watching, and not being able to even trap the ball (this part may be questionable ). He also was terrible (like everyone else) yesterday so if he can be upset with others.....then so can all the others be upset with him. He should not get a pass for that.

But like I said, I don't want to go around in circles with this discussions because I think we agree.....but just are coming from different angles with this situation as you too at the end said that you are not pleased with him and you don't like many things he did. I, just like you, think there are plenty of other issues in this team and especially in yesterday's game. Other things much worse then Balotelli's attitude and antics on the field....however it does irritate me because he can be such a huge player, yet he gets involved in a side of the game that can very well ruin him.

About Niang and SES.....I didn't mean that they were influential in yesterday's game. They clearly weren't, which is why I said that they CAN be very influential IF their touches are made close to the opponents goal.....which yesterday wasn't the case. I wouldn't blame them for that as the positions they took up were more due to the inability of the midfield to bring the ball quickly closer to the opponent's danger area and feed these two (SES especially). SES for example I'm sure will love to get the ball at the opponents box, rather then at the half way line. But as any player if that doesn't happen he'll drift closer and closer to it and eventually he won't be dangerous.

Fact of the matter is that SES I think has some incredible off the ball runs in him. I actually think that's the most fascinating part about him. At such a young age he makes some great runs and finds himself in very dangerous situations. Yet, we don't have the capabilities in our line-up to feed the ball to our forwards (not just him)....which is the most frustrating part.

Thanks. I think we need to see how the forwards look in the next matches to understand more. It could be a one off situation that we saw the failures, or we are starting to see real cracks in them. I will say one thing, which I think everyone here can agree on. Mexes apparently publicly (not quite sure how public it was) lambasted Balotelli's attitude after the match and Allegri avoided the topic. Whatever occurred, I don't think anyone, including everyone at the club was happy with how Balotelli behaved, so this is something that needs to be dealt with.

Good work, Dev. This Milan seriously lacks either the ability or will or both to play the entire 90 minutes of every match with intensity.

Thanks Xu.

I don't think it's a question of ability, we had more than enough to close out a match vs Verona. I think it's a mental problem, one that's been a hangover since last year that we've still not rectified.

Good tactical analyses, but honestly I have problems even with first two screenshots. It's simply too exposed.
All players are too high. Funny, but first two pictures are really the reason for the other pictures.
On the first, imagine Zapata misplaced the pass, it's not uncommon, he does it often enough. Middle of the field is completely open. Niang is making the wrong move. Since Poli is on his place, he should move into the middle and not on the right, and we see that he plays his own tactics there. So, middle of the field is completely open, all quick players that we have are too high, except Zapata who has the ball. If Zapata misplaced the pass, we'd probably see a similar picture to the latest picture in the post, i.e. they would kill us on counter.

My point here is: You can't play an open game like this if you have three slow and weak midfielders. And none of them is actually a defensive midfielder. It's no coincidence that you can't see our midfielders in the shot even just before Verona scored. They're too high, too bad positioned, too slow, and, the biggest mistake, all of them expect that one of the other two needs to come back.

You can show me a million of screenshots, but after I watched the game, my conclusion is that Allegri put his midfield completely wrong. Three slow, weak midfielders who are barely average defensively. At the moment Verona players relaxed and saw their chance, they immediately started to kill us on counter.

And yet, it's not like we had a brilliant 15 minutes, we had ok 15 minutes at best, and our only chance came when we scored because of a moment of brilliance from Balotelli.

Thanks.

I think keeping a tight unit would prevent the counter, if the players remain tactically disciplined. My reasoning is Verona wouldn't have had the time on the ball nor the space to attack to be a threat. Had Zapata given the ball away, with that pass, then we would have Nocerino, Montolivo, Mexes, Zapata and Niang all in a position where they can cover and slow down the counter (or make a tactical foul). The only scenario imo should leave us vulnerable here is Zapata giving the ball away to the man closing him down, which should never happen as he had time and options to pick his pass. The one issue I had with the first screenshot is both Abate and Constant were pushed all the way up (like Brazil in the Confederations cup), mostly because I'm a traditionalist and prefer attacking with one fullback at a time.

About our midfield, it's not good enough, but nor do I think it was that weak (again, given our opposition, it should have been sufficient). Montolivo, as I recently posted in the Summer Mercato thread, is a solid player at DM. Form is another matter, but generally he's been capable with providing cover when needed. Poli too last year was a solid midfielder. Nocerino is the weak link imo, as he's not that solid nor likely to win the ball back, but at the very least I think he should be capable of slowing down opposing moves to give teammates time to get back into position. If he can't do this, then he should never have been brought to Milan.

I will discuss about Verona's confidence etc in response to Danny, but I agree, we weren't brilliant for 15 minutes, it was satisfactory and imo is what we should be expecting so early in the season.

Excellent analysis from Dev there, a thoughtful post with a lot of work in it.

One thing however, as he pointed out, in the early part of this match we were fine. Reason for this is simple - Verona had not yet learned how soft we'd be through the middle. How static. As Dev says, we basically had a flat midfield 3 and the only one who ventured forward for most of the match was Poli. Once Verona scored and realised how poorly we were organised, especially at the back, they tore through us time and time again.

Monto is in terrible form at the moment and certainly isn't a DM. Yet was played as one. You cannot have a midfield 3 without a destroyer.

Thanks.

I don't think Verona grew confidence because they saw how badly we were organised at the back, I think we failed to manage the match and stopped playing when we thought we'd won. Our shape was sloppy, but technically we were also sloppy and the pace of our game had slowed down. We tried to pick it up, but the team never regained shape and composure, so it doesn't matter how hard you try, if you fail on these elements, you simply won't work as a team.

As I said above, Montolivo's not a bad option in front of the defence. The stats I provided in the Summer Mercato thread only support this. Also, he played the position for most of last season and we never complained then. I do agree about his form though.

Also, I vehemently disagree about a midfield 3 needing a destroyer (assuming you mean a specialist destroyer), as it goes against the very concepts that I grew up with in football. Yes, you need players who can act as destroyer's, but I never have believed you need a specialist destroyer (e.g. the Makelele role as many in the UK have come to know it), as it's fundamentally more important to have a strong collective group than a specialist individual to balance a team.

[Revolver]

The problem is, Montolivo is smart defensively but cannot cover space. Those stats are great and they are showing that he's smart, but that doesn't tells how quickly he can cover space.

If you could find those stats for Pirlo from first 3 or 4 years with us you would most probably come up with a similar statistics. But, Pirlo as smart as he was would never play in front of defense if there wasn't a player like Gattuso, who could quickly cover enormous amount of space, beside him.

That said, Monotlivo can function in front of defense, like he proved last year, when he has players that can cover space quickly beside him, like Muntari and (especially) Flamini did last year.

On Saturday, only Nocerino was that kind of player, but unfortunatelly he simply doesn't deliver, and yet he was positioned too high.
Looking how we were exposed, I'm afraid it was a mistake to not renew Flamini's contract. He was better than anyone we could get for that money, especially since we didn't get no-one to replace him.

[Danny]

Thanks.

I don't think Verona grew confidence because they saw how badly we were organised at the back, I think we failed to manage the match and stopped playing when we thought we'd won. Our shape was sloppy, but technically we were also sloppy and the pace of our game had slowed down. We tried to pick it up, but the team never regained shape and composure, so it doesn't matter how hard you try, if you fail on these elements, you simply won't work as a team.

I just can't agree with the first portion. If you see your opponent is marking you loosely or isn't marking at all, or, as you say, failed to manage themselves properly, then naturally your confidence will grow. We didn't stop playing till after we conceded the equaliser. We didn't stop playing because we thought we'd won, Verona took initiative and started attacking as much as they could and without any defensive minded midfielders we had no shield.

As I said above, Montolivo's not a bad option in front of the defence. The stats I provided in the Summer Mercato thread only support this. Also, he played the position for most of last season and we never complained then. I do agree about his form though.

Also, I vehemently disagree about a midfield 3 needing a destroyer (assuming you mean a specialist destroyer), as it goes against the very concepts that I grew up with in football. Yes, you need players who can act as destroyer's, but I never have believed you need a specialist destroyer (e.g. the Makelele role as many in the UK have come to know it), as it's fundamentally more important to have a strong collective group than a specialist individual to balance a team.

Don't agree. Without the midfield 3 model Barca wouldn't have had a quarter of their success. If you go midfield 3 in THIS day and age you need to have the progressive roles. DM, CM, AM. Without any one of these the 3 doesn't work.

So, basically, we completely disagree on this entire debate

[Mystik]

^^ Quick question for you Danny. Are you using Barcelona as the model to argue that there should be a specialist DM? I would say that although Busquets is a DM, he is very technically gifted (probably more so than anyone in our midfield) and he supports Barcelona's attack quite often.

I luckily missed this game and although I do tend to try and download matches after the fact, I don't think I'll bother this time.

[WCmilan]

He might be, but I dont blame him because hes probably right in doing so. It looks like Allegri is trying to put out a Barca type team with the way he puts out the players but more specifically how they train at milanello. In almost every video its all possession training.

[Danny]

^^ Quick question for you Danny. Are you using Barcelona as the model to argue that there should be a specialist DM? I would say that although Busquets is a DM, he is very technically gifted (probably more so than anyone in our midfield) and he supports Barcelona's attack quite often.

I luckily missed this game and although I do tend to try and download matches after the fact, I don't think I'll bother this time.

What about Song and Toure? As for Busquets, I didn't say the destroyer DM cannot support attack. I'm saying the 3 model needs one mid who destroys and breaks up play. Xavi and Iniesta do not do this much if at all, Busquets and others have.

I've also seen a goal or two from De Jong so he too can support - but my argument is focused on the defending. When you're up against it your CM and AM are unlikely to be overly effective at breaking up play. Pressuring yeah, but you need a solid DM to actually cover grass, position themselves to stave off attacks.

Barca were unique that their possession was insane, which also helps.

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He might be, but I dont blame him because hes probably right in doing so. It looks like Allegri is trying to put out a Barca type team with the way he puts out the players but more specifically how they train at milanello. In almost every video its all possession training.

You do need the gifted players that we simply don't have. We're going for this model and within our limits the De Jong (DM) Monto (CM) and Poli (AM) isn't that bad and is actually quite good for Serie A.

But up a level to the CL and it'll be found out.

I truly believe NDJ's absence was about 90% responsible for our loss. Last year we could compensate with Ambro - he wasn't terrific but he was good enough within his limits for Serie A, and Flamini. But this year bar De Jong we basically have zero top class DM's.