Poll: Germany vs Brazil Who wins?
Brazil
Germany
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Note: This is a public poll, other users will be able to see what you voted for.
Semifinals: Football summit - South America vs Europe
#61
Pele predicted Brazil for WC2018 in Russia and complimented Germany. A distraction?

https://sg.sports.yahoo.com/news/pele-se...--sow.html
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#62
Why are you still listening to his prediction? That guy is a certified jinx.
free loan with option to buy ™
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#63
I'm pretty much in agreement with nefremo. Germany deserve huge credit for their performance, they pressed beautifully, they attacked incisively cutting through the Brazil side like a hot knife throught butter and they never looked like they got out of 3rd gear. They are favourites for sure now and I'm not sure either Argentina or Netherlands have what it takes to beat them. It was a spectacle to enjoy and beautiful to watch.

For the beauty of Germany's play, you had the beast of Brazil. Perhaps beast isn't the right term, as Brazil looked meek and without character, but certainly it was ugly. I've been defending Brazil this tournament until almost kick off of the semi final, praising their character and hunger to win. However, in this match they not only failed to show the same level of pressing and character as previous matches, they imploded in a way that was surely unimaginable.

I had a feeling that without Thiago Silva they wouldn't have to organisation and composure at the back, but figured that they still had players who had experience at the top and could step in to at least give a good match. Let's bear in mind we're talking about 4 CL winners in the back (Julio Cesar, Maicon, Marcelo and Dante) and another CL winner with Luiz Gustavo. Fernandinho and David Luiz have also played at the highest levels. Instead, they gave a match for roughly 10 minutes, conceded and just totally lost control of the situation. I've never seen Brazilian players look so scared to receive the ball during a match, while David Luiz appeared to have all of his mistakes during the season compressed into 90 minutes. Marcelo was just as dreadful, beyond belief.

Fernandinho was totally missing while on the pitch and Luiz Gustavo didn't seem to know what to do, as half the time he had David Luiz alongside him at the halfway line and not behind. Then there's the attack, where Oscar was the only one who tried anything. Bernard and Hulk were beyond atrocious, while the less said about Fred the better (it says a lot that he was booed by Brazilian fans after he was subbed and only shown on the jumbo screen).

Honestly, I could try to go into tactics and where it went wrong, but to paraphrase Alan Hansen said during the halftime analysis when talking about the second goal, for all of Germany's good play, Brazil made 15 mistakes on that one goal alone.

As I said last night though, we witnessed history in the making while watching this and the ramifications will surely be huge. This should be the trigger to reform Brazilian football and I do feel for Brazilian fans and supporters, as I've seen some heartache in football (everyone here will relate to Istanbul), but never can I think of a match where this happened to Milan, never mind where and when it's happened and the scale of the disaster. I also feel for Scolari, because while he made mistakes and showed too much faith in certain individuals, the way the match went and the speed at which Brazil fell apart means that he didn't really have the time to react and change things before it was all lost.

Finally, I do feel for the players. The players who lost the 1950 final have never been allowed to live down that failure since. This was much worse and I dread to think what will happen to this group of players. If I was Fred, I'd be looking to move abroad quickly.
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#64
(07-09-2014, 09:29 AM)Nalx Wrote: Why are you still listening to his prediction? That guy is a certified jinx.


He said it after this match, so I think he had good intention, diverting the attention to him, the bad comedian.
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#65
(07-08-2014, 05:03 PM)ACMILAN1983 Wrote: Androgynous, I've often heard comments that Brazilian football (particularly at club level) feels a kind of identity crisis at the moment as Brazil don't produce highly technical footballers in recent years (exceptions like Neymar aside) and have been overtaken by other nations, notably Spain.

Would you agree with this assessment and do you think this trend is changing and Brazilian football is on the verge of change to develop more technical players? I'm interested in reading a Brazilian perspective on the matter, as well as this being related to my comments below.

Well, first of all I gotta say that I'm no expert on Brazilian football. Most of the time I find it boring with a bunch of headless chicken running around. That's why whenever someone that actually can stop the ball and think a little (aka Seedorf) appears, it makes a huge difference in how a team play around here. That may be exactly what happened in the Germany game. Which is funny, as you all said, there's a bunch of experienced and proven winners at that squad, yet they froze and were mentally broken like if they were amateurs. That already is a sign of things to come when I talk about my impressions toward Brazilian football itself.

I do agree with that assessment, although from a bit different perspective. I feel that it's not only that Brazil suddenly stopped to produce technical talents, but the whole world realized that physical advantage wouldn't solely produce the best results and so strived to develop its technical side of the game.
An example of that would be exactly this German side who fell short on the 2002 WC and are now collecting the fruits of the hard work devised to improve its game in general.

Also I believe that identity crisis which you mentioned was born when Brazil tried too hard to catch up with the so called european methods, shifting its focus from the technical side to the physical, believing that decision would better prepare the brazilian player for (and against) the tactical and tough demanding European football. However, that decision backfired, Europe is now demanding technical proneness and that, allied with tactical and physical "knowledge" is creating some great talents like Muller, Pogba, Verratti et al.

The main problem for me is quite similar to what we as Milan supporters all agree: the lack of a planning and an objective (national-wise, from sunday league to pro level). With their heads focusing on copying Europe, the whole country forgot which football they want to be played here. It is not about producing the best brazilian football they could, but how to produce a brazilian football suited to win at all costs, or to talents that can be sold for huge amounts.
I feel Brazilian football is now at minimum two decades late when it comes to development of players and the whole infrastructure, running behind without a solid plan and not being able to catch up.
As a result, the brazilian league "superstars" are the old generation who came back from Europe/Asia or foreign players: Ronaldinho, Alex, Conca, Montillo, D'Alessandro and now Kaká.

The young exciting players from Brazil all seem to share a physical trait: they're all pretty fast, Bernard, Vitinho, Ademilson, Lucas (PSG) even defenders (Doria for example). I'm pretty sure that is not just a coincidence, but how they were molded along the road. There is few space for someone with other characteristics to appear, Rodrigo Caio, originally a DM, voted the best player in the Toulon Tournament, was only given his chance because an injury-crisis in Sao Paulo's defence, so he started to show his playmaking attributes from the back. Ganso, for all his technical quality, was a player much maligned because his lack of speed.

Anyways, I'll keep writing for days without being able to say the whole picture. So very sorry for this huge post. To sum it up, yes, I agree with that assessment Devilol
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#66
It even has its own wiki page Sad

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mineirazo
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#67
(07-09-2014, 07:22 PM)Androgynous Wrote: Well, first of all I gotta say that I'm no expert on Brazilian football. Most of the time I find it boring with a bunch of headless chicken running around. That's why whenever someone that actually can stop the ball and think a little (aka Seedorf) appears, it makes a huge difference in how a team play around here. That may be exactly what happened in the Germany game. Which is funny, as you all said, there's a bunch of experienced and proven winners at that squad, yet they froze and were mentally broken like if they were amateurs. That already is a sign of things to come when I talk about my impressions toward Brazilian football itself.

I do agree with that assessment, although from a bit different perspective. I feel that it's not only that Brazil suddenly stopped to produce technical talents, but the whole world realized that physical advantage wouldn't solely produce the best results and so strived to develop its technical side of the game.
An example of that would be exactly this German side who fell short on the 2002 WC and are now collecting the fruits of the hard work devised to improve its game in general.

Also I believe that identity crisis which you mentioned was born when Brazil tried too hard to catch up with the so called european methods, shifting its focus from the technical side to the physical, believing that decision would better prepare the brazilian player for (and against) the tactical and tough demanding European football. However, that decision backfired, Europe is now demanding technical proneness and that, allied with tactical and physical "knowledge" is creating some great talents like Muller, Pogba, Verratti et al.

The main problem for me is quite similar to what we as Milan supporters all agree: the lack of a planning and an objective (national-wise, from sunday league to pro level). With their heads focusing on copying Europe, the whole country forgot which football they want to be played here. It is not about producing the best brazilian football they could, but how to produce a brazilian football suited to win at all costs, or to talents that can be sold for huge amounts.
I feel Brazilian football is now at minimum two decades late when it comes to development of players and the whole infrastructure, running behind without a solid plan and not being able to catch up.
As a result, the brazilian league "superstars" are the old generation who came back from Europe/Asia or foreign players: Ronaldinho, Alex, Conca, Montillo, D'Alessandro and now Kaká.

The young exciting players from Brazil all seem to share a physical trait: they're all pretty fast, Bernard, Vitinho, Ademilson, Lucas (PSG) even defenders (Doria for example). I'm pretty sure that is not just a coincidence, but how they were molded along the road. There is few space for someone with other characteristics to appear, Rodrigo Caio, originally a DM, voted the best player in the Toulon Tournament, was only given his chance because an injury-crisis in Sao Paulo's defence, so he started to show his playmaking attributes from the back. Ganso, for all his technical quality, was a player much maligned because his lack of speed.

Anyways, I'll keep writing for days without being able to say the whole picture. So very sorry for this huge post. To sum it up, yes, I agree with that assessment Devilol

Thanks for getting back to me. I was hoping to reply sooner but have been away for work for a few days and never got the chance. While you say you're no expert on Brazilian football, being Brazilian and presumably living in Brazil would mean you still have greater access of Brazilian football compared to the average European fan. Truth is, having read your posts for a while now, I personally value your opinion very much, as you clearly have a great understanding of the sport.

It sounds like your assessment on the youth development process in Brazil is similar to what I've heard. I've mentioned before a lot of what I hear about Brazilian football is from BBC's Tim Vickery, who lives in Brazil and follows South American football. It does sound like the focus on athletic ability has somewhat affected the development of players of different types. Interesting thing is, being in England there's sometimes (and often not enough) talk of the same thing here. Lot's of players are developed for the physical attributes, while less focus is often placed on other skills or talents. This means many are being turned away by clubs despite having real talent, simply as they're smaller than others or not as fast.

This I think can also be considered partly the case in Italy. If Baresi was to come through in the modern game, I wonder if he would have been allowed to be a defender, as these days it seems a lot of defenders need to be tall by default. Instead, I bet he'd have played in midfield, in a role similar to Mascherano for Argentina or De Jong. People often make fun of Spanish and particularly Barca players for their lack of height, but I think to a point these places have broken the mould and let others come through their system which is in part the reason of their success.

Another question though, following the destruction from Germany, what has been the fallout in Brazil after that? I mentioned before Juninho on BBC said Brazil needs to look at it's problems developing players at youth level, which Tim Vickery has also said. What's the feeling in Brazil though, is there real consideration being made to change how things are being done?
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