Winter mercato January 2015
#41
Man it's hard not to envy Juve these days. They've got a foothold on the 2 best Italian youngsters (Berardi/Zaza), Pogba/Coman from France and Morata from Spain. Now that's what I call a youth project. Meanwhile we're stuck with fodders like Saponara, Niang who nobody wants Facepalm
#42
Jokka, you seem very confident in your views. We'll see if you are right.

Jay answered you about Lopez, so I agree with him. I think you are wrong about him. If the first game is anything to go by, he is worth every penny. Saved us a few times and eventually we won the 3 points. Had it still been Abbiati in there, we were probably going to drop 2 points.

Bonaventura is not a midtable player. I don't know how many times you've seen him play, but I don't think it's a lot because you keep referencing where he played rather then HOW he played. He was one of the best players in Serie A last season. You said we should have bought Jorginho (I don't disagree), but by you judgements...Jorginho is a midtable player that played for HELLAS VERONA! Do you see my point?
Please don't say that Bonaventura is 25 and Jorginho is in his early 20s. It doesn't change the point. They are both young and have many years in them.

I admire your confidence in your views buddy, but you should also be confident enough to admit that you are wrong if we do end up fighting for a CL spot....
#43
(09-12-2014, 11:53 AM)nefremo Wrote: Jokka, you seem very confident in your views. We'll see if you are right.

Jay answered you about Lopez, so I agree with him. I think you are wrong about him. If the first game is anything to go by, he is worth every penny. Saved us a few times and eventually we won the 3 points. Had it still been Abbiati in there, we were probably going to drop 2 points.

Bonaventura is not a midtable player. I don't know how many times you've seen him play, but I don't think it's a lot because you keep referencing where he played rather then HOW he played. He was one of the best players in Serie A last season. You said we should have bought Jorginho (I don't disagree), but by you judgements...Jorginho is a midtable player that played for HELLAS VERONA! Do you see my point?
Please don't say that Bonaventura is 25 and Jorginho is in his early 20s. It doesn't change the point. They are both young and have many years in them.

I admire your confidence in your views buddy, but you should also be confident enough to admit that you are wrong if we do end up fighting for a CL spot....

Re Lopez, I said he was great last season but that was a one off. In the seasons prior he's been nothing more than good/solid as Jay said. We all agree he's not WC. Therefore, it's important to understand why he was so good last season. I can only attribute that to playing for a team with great players/coach and winning mentality. Basically the exact opposite of the conditions he'll find here. Also factoring in his age (33 in November) it's inevitable his reflexes/form will dip within a couple years.

Why doesn't age have anything to do with Jorginho/Bonaventura? Jorginho showed great things in 1H debut season in Serie A (7 goals/4 assists). Thereafter, he was promptly snapped up by Napoli age 21. Meanwhile, Bonaventura's had 3-4 full season's in Serie A without anybody making a move. Yes I've watched him play and he's nothing more than a good player. Certainly not a 'champion' who will carry us to CL qualification.

I'll happily admit I'm wrong if the team performs and we end up snatching 3rd place. But somehow I don't think I'll need to Sagrin
#44
(09-12-2014, 11:44 AM)Jokka Wrote: Man it's hard not to envy Juve these days. They've got a foothold on the 2 best Italian youngsters (Berardi/Zaza), Pogba/Coman from France and Morata from Spain. Now that's what I call a youth project. Meanwhile we're stuck with fodders like Saponara, Niang who nobody wants Facepalm

Hi guys,

I am new to this thread, but I am quite active in some other threads.
Juve have made some good mercato moves in past few seasons, but let us not forget that we have one of the best youth couples in the attack, which still need to show their skills and talent. I am referring to El Shaarawy and Mastour, not to forget some other names who are still part of the youth team such as Christian Maldini, Di Molfetta, etc. This is even without mentioning De Sciglio, Rodrigo Eli...

Juve achieved many successes during the era post Calciopoli, when they did not have "any" oponents, when they were able to win several scudetto's in a row, and when they earned a lot of money from the sale of big players (i.e. Ibra to Barca), so they had the money to buy some good players. But now, they have Allergi, whose training plan is weird, as players such as Pirlo, Vidal, Tevez got injured during the training sessions, which is something that used to happen a lot while Allegri was in Milan.

Let us hope that Allegri has the same bad luck as he had while in Milan.
FORZA MILAN
#45
Fair enough Jokka! Okmilan

Like I said a couple days ago, I don't know what world class is anymore. Why isn't Lopez world class? For two years in a row he benched the supposedly world class Casillas. He may have peaked late in his career, but IMO he is right now a top 10 GK in the world. Whether he'll slow down because of age this or next year we'll see. GK sometimes carry on their levels well into their 30s.

About the age thing with Bonaventura, I said it doesn't change my point because he is still only 25. It's not like he is 30+. He is at am age where it's the perfect time for him to peak. I maintain my opinion , he was one of the best players in Serie A last year...for me he had a better season then Jorginho. (Different players though)
My point about the age is that whether you have a breakout season at 21 or 25 doesn't give any guarantees. At 25 Bonaventura can still improve and peak and become great. He may not. Either way, he is still young is what I'm saying. At the same time, who's to say that at 25 Jorginho won't be just an average player because maybe he peaked too early. There are hundreds of example like that too.

Important thing is that at 21 and 25, both these guys are young and they are both good buys. The fact that you are dismissing Bonaventura because he played for a midtable team at 25...and you would rather have Jorginho (who also played at a midtable team) is the reasoning that I don't agree with. Just because Bonaventura played in Atalanta at 25 doesn't make him a bad player...and on the contrary just because Jorginho had a good season at 21 doesn't mean that he'll have a better career then Bonaventura.
Please note that I'm not comparing the two players as they are different and do different things on the field. I like them both. I'm just explaining the age thing and that to me it doesn't make a difference because they both have many years ahead of them to play. Anything can happen with their careers.
#46
(09-12-2014, 01:05 PM)nefremo Wrote: Fair enough Jokka! Okmilan

Like I said a couple days ago, I don't know what world class is anymore. Why isn't Lopez world class? For two years in a row he benched the supposedly world class Casillas. He may have peaked late in his career, but IMO he is right now a top 10 GK in the world. Whether he'll slow down because of age this or next year we'll see. GK sometimes carry on their levels well into their 30s.

About the age thing with Bonaventura, I said it doesn't change my point because he is still only 25. It's not like he is 30+. He is at am age where it's the perfect time for him to peak. I maintain my opinion , he was one of the best players in Serie A last year...for me he had a better season then Jorginho. (Different players though)
My point about the age is that whether you have a breakout season at 21 or 25 doesn't give any guarantees. At 25 Bonaventura can still improve and peak and become great. He may not. Either way, he is still young is what I'm saying. At the same time, who's to say that at 25 Jorginho won't be just an average player because maybe he peaked too early. There are hundreds of example like that too.

Important thing is that at 21 and 25, both these guys are young and they are both good buys. The fact that you are dismissing Bonaventura because he played for a midtable team at 25...and you would rather have Jorginho (who also played at a midtable team) is the reasoning that I don't agree with. Just because Bonaventura played in Atalanta at 25 doesn't make him a bad player...and on the contrary just because Jorginho had a good season at 21 doesn't mean that he'll have a better career then Bonaventura.
Please note that I'm not comparing the two players as they are different and do different things on the field. I like them both. I'm just explaining the age thing and that to me it doesn't make a difference because they both have many years ahead of them to play. Anything can happen with their careers.

As you are making comparisons, I would like to remind that Christian "Bobo" Vieri played for this "mid-table team" Atalanta at the age of 26, when he joined Juventus. From that moment, he played for A. Madrid, Lazio, Inter, Milan, Monaco..., and only ended his carrier in 2009, at the age of 39.

So let's hope that Bonaventura has at least half of the success Vieri had.
FORZA MILAN
#47
(09-12-2014, 12:59 PM)eki111 Wrote: Hi guys,

I am new to this thread, but I am quite active in some other threads.
Juve have made some good mercato moves in past few seasons, but let us not forget that we have one of the best youth couples in the attack, which still need to show their skills and talent. I am referring to El Shaarawy and Mastour, not to forget some other names who are still part of the youth team such as Christian Maldini, Di Molfetta, etc. This is even without mentioning De Sciglio, Rodrigo Eli...

Juve achieved many successes during the era post Calciopoli, when they did not have "any" oponents, when they were able to win several scudetto's in a row, and when they earned a lot of money from the sale of big players (i.e. Ibra to Barca), so they had the money to buy some good players. But now, they have Allergi, whose training plan is weird, as players such as Pirlo, Vidal, Tevez got injured during the training sessions, which is something that used to happen a lot while Allegri was in Milan.

Let us hope that Allegri has the same bad luck as he had while in Milan.

You do realize we sold Ely outright don't you? Also Christian Maldini is nothing special. We actually loaned him to Brescia Primavera last season because Inzaghi didn't rate him. As for Di Molfetta, he's a good player but nothing more.

SES had a fantastic 1H debut season but sucked the 2H. He was then out injured the whole of last season. If he can get back to his 1H 2013 levels then we potentially have a champion. But I fear his games too one-dimensional (i.e. always cutting inside) and opponents know how to neutralize him. For me Berardi is better than SES. Not only is he 2 years younger but put up fantastic numbers playing for Sassuolo last season. He's also a much better dribbler, passer and equally good finisher.

Mastour has amazing technical skills but hasn't proven anything yet. I'm expecting a really big season from him for the Primavera. If he's the champion he's hyped to be he should be scoring/assisting every other game.

Our only other standout youth player alongside DES was sold to Benfica for peanuts. Just so Galliani could renew Muntari, keep Essien and develop Van Ginkel for Chelsea Facepalm
(09-12-2014, 01:37 PM)eki111 Wrote: As you are making comparisons, I would like to remind that Christian "Bobo" Vieri played for this "mid-table team" Atalanta at the age of 26, when he joined Juventus. From that moment, he played for A. Madrid, Lazio, Inter, Milan, Monaco..., and only ended his carrier in 2009, at the age of 39.

So let's hope that Bonaventura has at least half of the success Vieri had.

Actually Vieri left Atalanta age 22/23 after playing his first full Serie A season. Juventus noticed his talent and snapped him up immediately. Meanwhile Bonaventura had much more Serie A experience but nobody came calling. Devilconfused

PS Juve's got an option on the new Vieri...his names Simone Zaza Facepalm
#48
(09-12-2014, 01:43 PM)Jokka Wrote:
(09-12-2014, 12:59 PM)eki111 Wrote: Hi guys,

I am new to this thread, but I am quite active in some other threads.
Juve have made some good mercato moves in past few seasons, but let us not forget that we have one of the best youth couples in the attack, which still need to show their skills and talent. I am referring to El Shaarawy and Mastour, not to forget some other names who are still part of the youth team such as Christian Maldini, Di Molfetta, etc. This is even without mentioning De Sciglio, Rodrigo Eli...

Juve achieved many successes during the era post Calciopoli, when they did not have "any" oponents, when they were able to win several scudetto's in a row, and when they earned a lot of money from the sale of big players (i.e. Ibra to Barca), so they had the money to buy some good players. But now, they have Allergi, whose training plan is weird, as players such as Pirlo, Vidal, Tevez got injured during the training sessions, which is something that used to happen a lot while Allegri was in Milan.

Let us hope that Allegri has the same bad luck as he had while in Milan.

You do realize we sold Ely outright don't you? Also Christian Maldini is nothing special. We actually loaned him to Brescia Primavera last season because Inzaghi didn't rate him. As for Di Molfetta, he's a good player but nothing more.

SES had a fantastic 1H debut season but sucked the 2H. He was then out injured the whole of last season. If he can get back to his 1H 2013 levels then we potentially have a champion. But I fear his games too one-dimensional (i.e. always cutting inside) and opponents know how to neutralize him. For me Berardi is better than SES. Not only is he 2 years younger but put up fantastic numbers playing for Sassuolo last season. He's also a much better dribbler, passer and equally good finisher.

Mastour has amazing technical skills but hasn't proven anything yet. I'm expecting a really big season from him for the Primavera. If he's the champion he's hyped to be he should be scoring/assisting every other game.

Our only other standout youth player alongside DES was sold to Benfica for peanuts. Just so Galliani could renew Muntari, keep Essien and develop Van Ginkel for Chelsea Facepalm
(09-12-2014, 01:37 PM)eki111 Wrote: As you are making comparisons, I would like to remind that Christian "Bobo" Vieri played for this "mid-table team" Atalanta at the age of 26, when he joined Juventus. From that moment, he played for A. Madrid, Lazio, Inter, Milan, Monaco..., and only ended his carrier in 2009, at the age of 39.

So let's hope that Bonaventura has at least half of the success Vieri had.

Actually Vieri left Atalanta age 22/23 after playing his first full Serie A season. Juventus noticed his talent and snapped him up immediately. Meanwhile Bonaventura had much more Serie A experience but nobody came calling. Devilconfused

PS Juve's got an option on the new Vieri...his names Simone Zaza Facepalm

Vieri joined Juventus in 1996/97 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_Vieri).
FORZA MILAN
#49
(09-12-2014, 02:15 PM)eki111 Wrote: Vieri joined Juventus in 1996/97 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_Vieri).

And he was born 12 July 1973 so just turned 23.
#50
(09-12-2014, 02:20 PM)Jokka Wrote:
(09-12-2014, 02:15 PM)eki111 Wrote: Vieri joined Juventus in 1996/97 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_Vieri).

And he was born 12 July 1973 so just turned 23.

And Inzaghi was 24-25 when he left Atalanta for Juventus.

So I guess that Atalanta does produce some high-class players, such as Cabrini, Canigia, Prandelli, Donadoni, Montolivo, Pazzini...
FORZA MILAN