Week 8: Milan - Fiorentina (Sunday, October 26th - 20:45 CET)
#51
Is it true that Pippo plays much more conservatively when we face "big team" or "difficult match"? We were very different team against Juventus and Fiorentina. The only other "difficult match" would be against Verona, and I remember Pippo "surprised" at our big win, saying something like he was expecting a tough fight and perhaps a draw (or something to that effect).

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#52
I'm not sure if it's intentional, at least yesterday. Against Juve I think he wanted to play on the counter, though that was also just a poor performance however you look at it.
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#53
(10-27-2014, 02:00 PM)ACMILAN1983 Wrote: I agree and disagree with your points. I don't particularly blame Pippo for what happened yesterday, the team did open up around that period of the conceded goal and Ilicic did well to take advantage of the space between the lines. On De Jong, I was annoyed at the lack of urgency on chasing Ilicic, but want to clarify that he did have a very good game on the whole.

I agree that gaps aren't being filled adequately when a player moves out of position. Pippo needs to improve this aspect, but at the same time these are things that have been symptomatic of the side for years and so responsibility (imo the majority), lies with the players who have failed in this aspect of the game.

On the pressing, I want to start by saying I think Poli actually had a decent game, at least defensively (though not bad pushing up either). However, I think systematically there are a couple of problems with how the side presses that can be an issue. I think the fact that the midfielders are asked to press the opposing defence and the attackers (other than Menez, who I'm with nefremo on) are asked to defend is fine. Where I think the problem lies is where the team presses, in that they defend quite deep. This means Honda and SES are often in the middle of our own half, rather than further up field. Likewise, for Poli and Muntari to press high (i.e. meet the opposing defenders bringing the ball out), they have to run 20-30 yards up the pitch. Pressing in this way isn't efficient, both because players have to cover a lot of ground and it means opponents have time to play out from the back. Personally, I think if the side are to defend deep, then it'd make more sense to have SES and Honda press the defenders bringing the ball out from the back and let Poli and Muntari push wide to cover the wings behind them (whichever of SES and Honda isn't pressing high would drop back to make a midfield 4 in this scenario).

Alternatively, the side can continue doing what it does, but then they need to be confident enough to press higher and with tighter lines and a defence with a high line. This means Poli and Muntari don't need to run as far to meet the man they press and Honda and SES don't need to drop too deep. I prefer this, as I like a high pressing style of football, but I'm not convinced the players are able or disciplined enough to do it (certainly not with the current midfield).

Absolutetly agree. I was thinking the same thing as we press with a few people at a time, and mostly it is our LCM and RCM that are doing the pressing. They are usually the first ones to apply the pressure to the opposing CB. It's very weird, and I'm not saying it's wrong, but the problem is that we are not compact enough. Like you said, when the midfielders press, our wingers are all the way back in our own half and are in wide positions marking the opposing LB/RB. This leaves the middle very open (add this to the fact that our defensive line is never higher then 35m from our own goal), and this make is very easy for the other team to find vertical outlets to one of their forwards.......which in part makes our LCM/RCM apply pressure for aboslutely nothing as we barely ever win the ball back from that pressure anyway....so now they are forced to get back quickly and cover 30m of empty space behind them just so they can get back behind the ball and get in a defensive shape.

It makes no sense to me to ask the LCM/RCM to do all that extra running, yet excuse the CF (Menez) from applying any kind of pressure and just walks around up there. So basically the CMs are sprinting up 25/30m to apply pressure, while our Wingers are running back 35/40m to cover opposing wingbacks, while at the same time our CF is standing in the center circly and our defensive line is 60m away from the ball. All in all, these players (CMs and RW/LW) are doing so much extra work and we don't get anything out of it as we barely win the ball back in the opposing half.
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#54
It's nothing wrong with CMs doing the pressing in general. It's just Pippo's implementation of the system is wrong.

Just look at German NT, especially their WC game against Brazil. I've watched it twice and this was an AMAZING tactical performance by the whole team. Especially pay attention to their fourth and fifth goals.
Their initial system was very similar to ours, 4-3-3, with one DM, two CMs, two SSs on the sides and one CF.
Both CMs did the pressing high up the pitch, sometimes one of them, sometimes even both of them at the same time (like on mentioned fourth and fifth goals), and supporting strikers went back to form line of 3 or line of 4 in the middle, depending on whether both of CMs pressed or just one of them.

Advantages of CMs doing the pressing are numerous, and one of them is that they have much better ability to win the ball than strikers.

I remember Pippo saying that he likes the way the German NT plays when he took over.

Now, I agree with both of you, for that to work the whole team has to stay high, which isn't the case in Pippo's implementation. Not just that, but the whole team must work as unit. Now, no matter what, Honda and SES are just tracking to their deep positions and that's it. They're only wasting energy. Same with Muntari and especially Poli. Pressing is a simple thing, but you cannot press like a headless chicken. I see Poli tracking back to his initial positions, and only when Fiorentina's GK plays the ball to the defender he starts to run up to press, but it's evident that his action is much late and he's just wasting energy.

Perhaps I'm wrong but I don't like Inzaghi's ideas at all. Seedorf had much clearer ideas, but he didn't have players to implement it. Inzaghi is like... lost. Either you play pressing game, which means you keep your team high, or you do not play pressing game. You can't keep your team deep and press an opponent. I know it's just beginning for him, but I was skeptical to be honest even when he took over, as I don't know any striker who became a great coach, and furthermore Pippo when a player was perhaps the most awful tactical team player of his generation.
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#55
(10-28-2014, 03:48 PM)Revolver Wrote: It's nothing wrong with CMs doing the pressing in general. It's just Pippo's implementation of the system is wrong.
Just look at German NT, especially their WC game against Brazil. I've watched it twice and this was an AMAZING tactical performance by the whole team. Especially pay attention to their fourth and fifth goals.
Their initial system was very similar to ours, 4-3-3, with one DM, two CMs, two SSs on the sides and one CF.
Both CMs did the pressing high up the pitch, sometimes one of them, sometimes even both of them at the same time (like on mentioned fourth and fifth goals), and supporting strikers went back to form line of 3 or line of 4 in the middle, depending on whether both of CMs pressed or just one of them.

Advantages of CMs doing the pressing are numerous, and one of them is that they have much better ability to win the ball than strikers.

I remember Pippo saying that he likes the way the German NT plays when he took over.

Now, I agree with both of you, for that to work the whole team has to stay high, which isn't the case in Pippo's implementation. Not just that, but the whole team must work as unit. Now, no matter what, Honda and SES are just tracking to their deep positions and that's it. They're only wasting energy. Same with Muntari and especially Poli. Pressing is a simple thing, but you cannot press like a headless chicken. I see Poli tracking back to his initial positions, and only when Fiorentina's GK plays the ball to the defender he starts to run up to press, but it's evident that his action is much late and he's just wasting energy.Perhaps I'm wrong but I don't like Inzaghi's ideas at all. Seedorf had much clearer ideas, but he didn't have players to implement it. Inzaghi is like... lost. Either you play pressing game, which means you keep your team high, or you do not play pressing game. You can't keep your team deep and press an opponent. I know it's just beginning for him, but I was skeptical to be honest even when he took over, as I don't know any striker who became a great coach, and furthermore Pippo when a player was perhaps the most awful tactical team player of his generation.

I agree on that first point, that's why I never said that it's not wrong...but weird the way we are doing it simply because we are not staying compact when pressing.

On the second bolded point, agree absolutely. It's not just Poli, but everyone that presses only presses once the ball goes to that particular player that they press. So basically like you said, GK plays the ball to a CB wide, and then after the CB receives the ball Poli leaves his position and sprints up to press. By this point it is too late so the ball just makes it's way easily behind Poli so now he has to go back to get behind it. It's all over the field. It's simply TOO MUCH distance to cover for some of these players and they can't get there in time to apply the correct pressure. If we move the defensive line up another 20-25meters, then the space becomes compressed and all of a sudden it's a lot less distance for Poli to cover when he presses, which means that he should get there much sooner and put the opposing player under pressure/force mistakes/win the ball/force a clearance instead of a simple pass/etc.
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