View Full Version : Will Carlo Ancelotti be considered a Milan Legend?
Let's fast forward to about 20-30 years from now. As we look back today to Milan legends like Van Basten, the Gre-No-Li trio, Gianni Rivera, Franco Baresi, Juan Alberto Schiaffino and José Altafini and coaches like Sacchi, Gipo Viani, Nereo Rocco and Nils Liedholm, would the name of Carlo Ancelotti, as a coach primarily, be sung as a legend?
Yes, he hasn't been coach long but his style is unmatchable. His loyalty towards his own players is impressive, his calm words before, during and after games are always comforting and players have spoken very well about his dressing room banter and coaching style. Even when Berlusconi criticises him, he comes out on top with fans and players all jumping to his defence.
And in his short time at Milan, he has won a lot. The icing on the cake would have been the Intercontinental Cup, which evaded him, but there's always time. He hasn't made Milan a world juggernaut that Sacchi did, but is he on his way?
So my question again - will Carlo Ancelotti be considered a Milan legend as a coach 20 - 30 years from now?
Probably not to the level of the names you mentioned but I think not only he still has time to do more as a coach at the club but also he is already close.
Ancelotti as a player, was IMO without a doubt a true legend. I've said many times that both him and Frankie Rijkaard were the best central midfield pairing ever in the history of football, and I'll bet my house on them owning an opposition midfield duo selected from the likes of Keane, Gerrard, Emerson, Vieira, Simeone or even Gattuso.
As a coach, he has won 5 trophies (Scudetto, CL, Coppa Italia, European Super Cup, Italian Super Cup) in 2 and half years. That's legend material for me already.
So my vote is a BIG YES!
he sorta threw out that loser tag in a big way didn't he? :D ok let me rephrase - he chopped up the loser tag, grinded it in a saw mill, fed it to wild animals and threw out into the ocean.
ACMILAN1983
30-11-2004, 14:01
Ilgenio said it all really.
Personally, I do think the Gattuso-Pirlo partnership will also end up in history like the Carlo-Rijkaard partnership, but both midfields are different, so not necessarily comparable.
I think he has the necessarry potential to become one:D
The bare fact that he is considered a legendary player will contribute to the overall impression. Besides, the tactics he uses and the new perspective that he gave to Milan,his loyalty and trust in this team are things which are invaluable.So.....my answer is yes,at least,i think he will always be a legend for me. Forza Carletto
Ancelotti as a player, was IMO without a doubt a true legend. I've said many times that both him and Frankie Rijkaard were the best central midfield pairing ever in the history of football, and I'll bet my house on them owning an opposition midfield duo selected from the likes of Keane, Gerrard, Emerson, Vieira, Simeone or even Gattuso.
As a coach, he has won 5 trophies (Scudetto, CL, Coppa Italia, European Super Cup, Italian Super Cup) in 2 and half years. That's legend material for me already.
So my vote is a BIG YES!
Well said.
Steve_Ge
30-11-2004, 20:45
I do now have much idea about the performance when Anchellotti was a player, but he is not good enough to couch Milan now although he got 2 champions for Milan already. We should have CAPERO back. HE IS THE BEST>
ACMILAN1983
30-11-2004, 20:55
I do now have much idea about the performance when Anchellotti was a player, but he is not good enough to couch Milan now although he got 2 champions for Milan already. We should have CAPERO back. HE IS THE BEST>
Right, this must be Jure in disguise ;) :D
acmilan89
30-11-2004, 21:01
he sorta threw out that loser tag in a big way didn't he? :D ok let me rephrase - he chopped up the loser tag, grinded it in a saw mill, fed it to wild animals and threw out into the ocean.
I couldn't agree with you more! That "nearly-man" sort of achievement with Juventus must be very frustrating. But then again, probably the Juve players didn't have the brains to understand what he was trying to say to them while he was the boss? :)
As for a legendary coach, I must say that Ancellotti's achievements have been impressive for the past two seasons. However, despite the fact that he has the quality to be considered one of Milan's legendary coaches 20-30 years down the road , I do not think he will achieve that status yet. He's probably has to win another European Cup and/or Serie A this season and next. :u56:
...but as a legendary player, that will be another thing altogether. :)
I do now have much idea about the performance when Anchellotti was a player, but he is not good enough to couch Milan now although he got 2 champions for Milan already. We should have CAPERO back. HE IS THE BEST>
QUICK! is it paolo inzaghi or pippo inzaghi! you have 2 seconds to answer!!!
Give it another few years before you call someone "Legend".
Patience, please.
zlatanov
01-12-2004, 06:57
I believe he already is - for what he has done both as a player and as a coach.
Also, Nadir, I think you should add Capello to the list of legendary coaches, as well.
Lombardia
01-12-2004, 07:21
its way to early to tell, to be considered a legend he needs to win much much more as a manager, at least another 3/4 serie a's and another cl imo.
yes sinch he brought us almost every cup .he brought us
champion league -Italy cup-euro soper cup and scudetto
Giovanni
01-12-2004, 09:09
he's already a legend..his 6th CL will remain in the hystory, and his revolutionary football as well
CARLO ALE'
CARLO ANCELOTTI
CARLO ALE'
CARLO ANCELOTTI
CE L'ABBIAMO NOI
CEL'ABBIAMO NOI
AN-CE-LO-TTI
CE L'ABBIAMO NOI!!
LALALLALALALALLALALAALLAAALLA LALLA
I believe he already is - for what he has done both as a player and as a coach.
Also, Nadir, I think you should add Capello to the list of legendary coaches, as well.
capello is not a legend in my eyes. he did the team some serious damage and undermined one of the greatest players milan had - Dejan Savicevic. He could have won a a CL with Milan in the 1995 had his ego not had the better of him and played Savicevic who was at his peak. Remember, a goad coach leaves the club in good condition. He left Milan in a mess and we took several years to climb back to where we were. I respect Capello for what he did for Milan - but
1) he inherited a Sacchi Milan. Most coaches would have done well with this squad.
2) he inherited the best defence in the world.
3) he inherited arguably the best attack in the world in the form of MVB. if he DIDN'T do well, something was f....ing wrong with him cause most soccer mom's would have done well if they were given this milan to coach. haha.
Steve_Ge
01-12-2004, 11:17
I still feel sick that Anchelotti kicked Albertini out of Milan. We should let Albertini ends his career in Milan.
I still feel sick that Anchelotti kicked Albertini out of Milan. We should let Albertini ends his career in Milan.
Milan is not a charity. it's a compeitive team. Albertini has been having absolutely mediocre seasons and even his time at Milan was nothing that can be described as stunning.
Milan is not a charity. it's a compeitive team. Albertini has been having absolutely mediocre seasons and even his time at Milan was nothing that can be described as stunning.
Nadir, are you my shadow in disguise? :delol:
Those were the exact words I would have said myself! :grinser:
It's rare to find another fellow poster who don't rate Capello highly (like me), and I admit I was over the moon when Milan decided to release the "invisible man" Albertini.
Carlo is already a legend in my opinion as player and manager. hes one of a select few who have won european cup as a player and as a manager
capello is not a legend in my eyes. he did the team some serious damage and undermined one of the greatest players milan had - Dejan Savicevic. He could have won a a CL with Milan in the 1995 had his ego not had the better of him and played Savicevic who was at his peak. Remember, a goad coach leaves the club in good condition. He left Milan in a mess and we took several years to climb back to where we were. I respect Capello for what he did for Milan - but
1) he inherited a Sacchi Milan. Most coaches would have done well with this squad.
2) he inherited the best defence in the world.
3) he inherited arguably the best attack in the world in the form of MVB. if he DIDN'T do well, something was f....ing wrong with him cause most soccer mom's would have done well if they were given this milan to coach. haha.
yes, i agree with you too. i am very impressed with ancelotti as a coach. he came here and got a team which is struggling to even qualify for CL and brought us back to the top of european soccer. in the time he was here, he didn't ask for money to buy the "zidanes and pavons" and got us to the top just by using the players we already have. in fact a lot of the players here own a lot to him, pirlo, gatusso, seedorf all improved under him. even the great maldini was thought to be past his sell-by date until ancelotti revive him. he is also a coach that is willing to experiment and change his style to suit the situation. when he came, people was saying how defensive he was and always play very defensive football. but he show that he can change and he can field a super attacking formation when required. this kind of flexibility is what impress me the most.
on the other hand, capello old school type of coaching is so unappealing to me. yes, i also hate SAF cause he don't practise human rights. his style is too dead and maybe that why ancelotti' milan always beat capello's roma. let see whether milan would crush capello's juve too.
Nadir, are you my shadow in disguise? :delol:
Those were the exact words I would have said myself! :grinser:
It's rare to find another fellow poster who don't rate Capello highly (like me), and I admit I was over the moon when Milan decided to release the "invisible man" Albertini.
albertini doesn't really play well during his last few years but the team is worse off without him. the whole midfield seem to run aound like headless chickens. that is until ancelotti decided to put a bit of magic in our midfield.
albertini doesn't really play well during his last few years but the team is worse off without him. the whole midfield seem to run aound like headless chickens. that is until ancelotti decided to put a bit of magic in our midfield.
are you saying MIlan's midfield revolved around albertini? you've got to be kidding! the fact that milan's midfield ran around like headless chickens during the poor run that started with kluivert signing for us, was not because albertini was not present - cus he was!
Milan knew the value of costacurta and maldini, which is why they were never released. as for demitrio - even christian brocchi is better than him.
are you saying MIlan's midfield revolved around albertini?
Since Albertini was the playmaker, of course it did :)
- Regardless of the fact that overall he didn't make a particularly good impression in his last seasons at Milan, mainly due to on-going injuries.
My opinion is and I've said it too often: releasing Deme was the obvious solution for both parties.
Btw. just a P.S. Albertini was EXCELLENT in the scudetto winning 98-99 season :pp20:
Since Albertini was the playmaker, of course it did :)
- Regardless of the fact that overall he didn't make a particularly good impression in his last seasons at Milan, mainly due to on-going injuries.
My opinion is and I've said it too often: releasing Deme was the obvious solution for both parties.
he was not a playmaker. he was a central midfielder. if he was a playmaker, he was the worst playmaker i have ever seen since the conception of soccer!
what makes a legend anyway? :D
ACMILAN1983
02-12-2004, 22:28
he was not a playmaker. he was a central midfielder. if he was a playmaker, he was the worst playmaker i have ever seen since the conception of soccer!
I agree that Demi wasn't a playmaker, but I can see why Laudrup would say he is.
Demi would often construct play in the side and especially spread the ball throughout the side, but more of a link man to get attacks going rather than being the creative force of a playmaker (like Boban for instance). Its quite similar to Pirlo in the current side. However, Pirlo is very much a playmaker in that he is the central figure in the Milan team and creates the attack build ups and conducts play rather than be a link man.
However, personally, I find it quite difficult to differentiate roles these days, as not many conform to what the standard defintion may be.
albertini doesn't really play well during his last few years but the team is worse off without him. the whole midfield seem to run aound like headless chickens. that is until ancelotti decided to put a bit of magic in our midfield.
For a man who played more than 400 games in 10 over years at Milan, often starting most of them, and in the regista role, Albertini managed an incredible 30+ :eekani: assists throughout his Milan career. An average of less than THREE per season! Nuff said about the invisible man.
Pirlo in three over seasons alone easily matched Albertini's assists total in his Milan career.
zlatanov
03-12-2004, 00:06
capello is not a legend in my eyes. he did the team some serious damage and undermined one of the greatest players milan had - Dejan Savicevic. He could have won a a CL with Milan in the 1995 had his ego not had the better of him and played Savicevic who was at his peak. Remember, a goad coach leaves the club in good condition. He left Milan in a mess and we took several years to climb back to where we were. I respect Capello for what he did for Milan - but
1) he inherited a Sacchi Milan. Most coaches would have done well with this squad.
2) he inherited the best defence in the world.
3) he inherited arguably the best attack in the world in the form of MVB. if he DIDN'T do well, something was f....ing wrong with him cause most soccer mom's would have done well if they were given this milan to coach. haha.
Nadir, you are being a bit too quick in your dismissal of Capello. Your hatred for him blinds you for the obvious - he and Lippi are the most successful coaches of the last 10-15 years. You are right that he may have been a bit harsh on Il Genio Dejan but this is part of the game and is seen evrywhere all the time. If you are going to dismiss a coach for having problems with a player or two there will be no coaches left for us to declare legends. Look at what Ancellotti did with Albertini or even Rivaldo for example. Or look at Van Gall, another vry successful coach whose teams played some of the most devastating footbal of their time - he was hated/feared by virtually every player on the team he coached, all in all you will find it difficult to find a player who liked him.
Ok Capello had problems with Savicevic and a couple of others but does that mean he is not one of the best if not the best coach for the last 10-15 years.
As for your points above:
1)Yes he did inherit a Sacchi Milan but the world is full of examples when a coach inherits a great team and does nothing after that. It is not Capello's fault that Sacchi made a monster of a team but once Sacchi was gone, we ave to give credit to Capello for building onto that and not allwing it to crumble. This is the same argument as if you are saying that every one can make a winning team when he has great players - well, this is simply not true and there are numerous examples for this - Inter, Real, Barca, etc, etc, etc. Once Sacchi was gone he was gone and that was it - his influence on the team could still be felt 3-4 months later but beyond this point it was Capello's Milan and nothing less, Sacchi was just a namefrom the recent past.
2) The same goes for the defence - even if they were all great players if Capello didn't know what to do with them i.e. how to use them Milan's defence would have stayed the best in the world, actually under Capello our defensive record improved over that we had with Sacchi we set the record for the longest unbeaten run in European footbal, played a whole season without losing a game and won 4 scudetto's in 5 seasons along with playing 3 consecutive CL finals of which we won 1 CL and were unlucky not to have made it 2 at least. And for this Sacchi had nothing to do, it was all due to Capello and his methods.
Just look what he did to all the teams hewent to - Milan, Real, Roma, and now Juve - they are all destined to be champions, and after he leaves his successors find it virtually impossible to keep up with the standerts he set. Capello goes to a team and makes their defence rock-solid (Roma, Real) even if he didn't inherit anything even close to this.
Your argument that he inherited an already great difence simply has no ground under it - once Sacchi was gone, the great difence was gone with him. What stayed were great players with thepotential to make a great defence. Whether they would have achieved that potential or just remain great players in an incoherent defence depended heavily and ONLY on Capello.
There are a million axamples of how great defenders can't perform at the level they used to when the coach is changed. Yes, Capello inherited great material to work with but it was entirely up to him and not Sacchi how he was going to use it, and he built a palace with it.
3)He didn't inherit anything from Sacchi except for the great defenders who wre already in the team. MvB almost didn't play under Capello for he was already suffering from the injury that eventually cost him his career. MvB played for Capello only during Capelo's first season at Milan and after that he was constantly on the sidelines due to that ankle injury. Also it was Capello who brought Boban, Savicevic, and made great use of Simone and Massaro who virtually constituted Milan's attck during the long absences of van Basten. As we all know, Gullit didn't really play any role in Capello's Milan. Capello also rebuilt the backbone of our miflield, after Rijkard and Ancellotti were gone, by bringing Desailly and Albertini into the first team and thus creating the strongest midfield in the world.
Yes Capello did inherit great players but he did brough players of his own too - Panucci, not sure about Rossi, Desailly, Albertini, Simone, Massaro, Il Genio, Boban, etc. With that he had great material to work with but, again, it was entirely up to him what he was going to biuld with it and he created a masterpiece of his own, one that Sacchi had nothing to do with.
sorry. i disagree.
1) ancelotti inherited a crap milan. he turned it around. so did zacheroni and he won a scudetto with it.
2) so you're saying rossi is the world's greatest keeper? the defence had nothing to do with the fact that he kept so many clean sheets? admit it - capello inherited the best defence in the world. your grandma could have coached milan at the time and Milan would have still kept clean sheets.
i don't give a rat's butt what he did at all the other teams. the question someone brought is capello's legendary status at milan. i don't think capello is a milan legend at all.
3) it wasn't capello that brought savicevic my friend. it was berlusconi - savicevic's biggest fan. albertini was in milan since 1988-89, rossi was in milan too. so was massaro.
i didn't expect people here to accept the fact that i am criticising capello. he was a good coach but he hurt milan a good amount and his ego got the better of him. he left milan in bad terms and no matter how much he did for milan, i will never forget the fact that he would have rather lost the CL over letting il genio play.
zlatanov
03-12-2004, 03:56
sorry. i disagree.
1) ancelotti inherited a crap milan. he turned it around. so did zacheroni and he won a scudetto with it.
2) so you're saying rossi is the world's greatest keeper? the defence had nothing to do with the fact that he kept so many clean sheets? admit it - capello inherited the best defence in the world. your grandma could have coached milan at the time and Milan would have still kept clean sheets.
i don't give a rat's butt what he did at all the other teams. the question someone brought is capello's legendary status at milan. i don't think capello is a milan legend at all.
3) it wasn't capello that brought savicevic my friend. it was berlusconi - savicevic's biggest fan. albertini was in milan since 1988-89, rossi was in milan too. so was massaro.
i didn't expect people here to accept the fact that i am criticising capello. he was a good coach but he hurt milan a good amount and his ego got the better of him. he left milan in bad terms and no matter how much he did for milan, i will never forget the fact that he would have rather lost the CL over letting il genio play.
Nadir, you have simply allowed your haterd for Capello blind you for the facts. I for example can't say I like van Gaal but I do believe that he is a great coach who has achieved a lot one way or the other. Sometimes great coaches do have to take responsibility and make decisions that will not be accepted by every fan having his favourite player out of favour with that coach. To claim that Milan lost the CL final just because Savicevic was left out is very speculative and superficial. Capello had his vision of the game and I am sure he did what he thought was best for the team - every single match had to be tactically prepared depending on the opponent Milan was facing. I doubt that Capello left him out just because he didn't like his personality or something like that. There have been other players Capello didn't get along with in personal terms but when it came to playing them he never left them out of the squad for not being in love with him - Boban, Mijatovic, Cassano, and god knows how many more.
I am really surprised to see that you still stay behind statements like "my grandmother could have coached a team with players like those." First of all, I doubt your granny would be able to do it, but back to the point, there are so many examples around of teams with great players who don't achieve anything. Saying that every coach would have achieved with Milan after the Sacchi era what Capello did is rediculous at best. Risking to repeat myself, I have to say that he did inherit great building material but it was completely up to him to make a good use of it and build something to be remembered. And to say this I don't need to rely on speculations for there are facts to speak for it. Sacchi's influence on the team play of Milan could not last more than a couple of months after Capello took over, from then on it was Capello and only him we have to credit for the results. We were lucky, and maybe lucky to have a management like that, to see things clearly and appoint a coach who would not just take over from a great predecessor but will carry on his own winning scheme into another era of success for Milan. Usually when one team goes through a golden-age period what follows is a harsh period of identity search for that team had become too dipendent on the previous coach who brought all that success. With Milan it didn't happen that way and may be we have to thank luck for it. Well, it did happen with Milan after Capello because he had left too deep of a mark onto the team and once he was gone Milan couldn't find anybody until Ancelloti who could fill in for him - I really doubt that we could refer to Zac's Milan as a serious trophy-winning machine for they were a one-season wonder and nothing more than that - Zac couldn't establish a new dynasti like those of Rocco, Sacchi, Capello, and now Ancellotti.
As for who he really brought to Milan or not, I guess you missed my point - Massaro and Albertini may have been in Milan already but the former was just a thrid line violin who would play only when MvB's subtitute was injured too and hardly could be mentioned as a Sacchi revelation. Albertini, on the other hand, was just a young prospect who was warming the bench and hopping that his time would come, one day, mush like Ambro 5-6 seasons ago when he was even off loaded to Vicenza. It was Capello who introduced these two players and discovered their true potential for Milan. Savicevic was brought in by Berlusconi but Capello did play him in most of the games, and had some very successful seasons together after all, so it doesn't really matter whether it was Capello or Silvio who brought him singlehandeddly to Milan - the point is that Il Genio was a fresh face in the Milan line up and was not a remainder of the Sacchi era.
In the end, I don't think I have ever refered to Rossi as the greatest keeper of all time or whatever you attributed to me but I don't think he was too far from being that and we have the facts that speak for themsleves, whether you like it or not. Just because he had such a strong defence infront of him it doesn't mean that everyone could have done the same or even better and cannot take away the credit that it is due to him. As for whether he was in Milan, yes he was but was warming up the bench for Sacchi's Milan so can't really say that he was much of a lucrative find for Capello - it was Capello who trusted him and discovered him for the big football scene not Sacchi making him yet another fresh face who left a deep mark in the after-Sacchi Milan.
Although it's true what ACMILAN1983 said - it's not always easy to differentiate roles - if you accept that Pirlo is the playmaker of the current Milan side (last season Pirlo had an average of 90 balls played per game in Serie A and held possession for 4 minutes per game, those were the highest numbers in those specific categories in Serie A, as the survey compiled by Digital Soccer Project reported), you have to accept Albertini as the playmaker as well. You may like Pirlo better but the fact is he holds the exact same role in the team as Deme did. It's not a coincidence that Pirlo, when he started playing in the position in front of the defence, would mention people like Albertini and Guardiola as his role models.
P.S. though this is a dispute about definition, I'd just like to emphasize that Carlo Ancelotti's on a number of occasions has named Pirlo the playmaker of his side, not necessarily to mistake for the creative force in midfield (such as a Boban or a Kaka'), as mentioned, the conductor of play, the metronome.
Btw. Great posting, zlatanov :)
zlatanov, good post and you have a right to your opinion. i disagree and i guess you'll have to accept it. btw, i don't hate capello as you started both your posts claiming. it doesn't "blind" me to anything. i just say it as i see it. perhaps your over-enthusiasm for capello blinds you to reality? first you claim capello bought massaro and albertini and now you withdraw that claim? i could adjust every other claim you made with a fine tooth comb but i don't have time for it :)
again, read the most important line of my posting
"i will never forget the fact that he would have rather lost the CL over letting il genio play."
are you saying MIlan's midfield revolved around albertini? you've got to be kidding! the fact that milan's midfield ran around like headless chickens during the poor run that started with kluivert signing for us, was not because albertini was not present - cus he was!
Milan knew the value of costacurta and maldini, which is why they were never released. as for demitrio - even christian brocchi is better than him.
yes, the whole milan midfield work around him. he didn't play well at all but somehow the midfield start to play even worse without him. if you dig up all the old thread then i am sure you can find a lot of comments on that aspect. he may not play well but he is the centre of that milan team. just like how pirlo is now the centre of this milan team. is it such a coincidence that milan play so poorly when pirlo is not on form? a on form pirlo would boost the whole team play. it as simple as that.
you must be talking about some bizarro milan which revolved around albertini hahah. trust me - i have been watching milan since i was a kid and i have been watching every game closely. i am sorry but you've got to be joking when you say that the team formation was selected around albertini and that he was the central figure at milan that tactics revolved around. Maybe you didn't know, but during Albertini's presence at Milan, Milan had a few players like Gullit, Virdis, Ancelotti, Savicevic, Boban, Papin, Rijkaard and Donadoni.
Don't dare compare Pirlo with Albertini.
you say here that, "he may not play well but he is the centre of that milan team" about albertini. HAHAH. So Milan's successes in the 90's revolved around an Albertini who DIDN'T play well. GOD!! thanks for the laugh :D That's some miracle Milan! Imagine if Albertini actually DID play well.
I don't mean to roast Demitrio here. He was a faithful milan servant and I respect that. But in today's Milan he would never break into the first team, and at best I can classify him as Serie A worthy - but absolutely not Milan worthy. Even back in 1994, when Milan had one killer season, I remember talking to a friend on the phone who asked me what Albertini gives the team. I thought and thought and thought and the best I could come up with was, he tries to win balls back.
zlatanov
05-12-2004, 12:36
As you said, Nadir, everyone is entitled to an opinion so I am not sure what are these reactions of yours to other's opinions. As for your opinions, keep them and express them, but when the facts speek against them maybe, just maybe, you'd better give it a better thought and stop seeing yourself as the messiah of football you are NOT.
Good luck on your long quest of waking up and finally coming to reality.
you must be talking about some bizarro milan which revolved around albertini hahah. trust me - i have been watching milan since i was a kid and i have been watching every game closely. i am sorry but you've got to be joking when you say that the team formation was selected around albertini and that he was the central figure at milan that tactics revolved around. Maybe you didn't know, but during Albertini's presence at Milan, Milan had a few players like Gullit, Virdis, Ancelotti, Savicevic, Boban, Papin, Rijkaard and Donadoni.
Don't dare compare Pirlo with Albertini.
you say here that, "he may not play well but he is the centre of that milan team" about albertini. HAHAH. So Milan's successes in the 90's revolved around an Albertini who DIDN'T play well. GOD!! thanks for the laugh :D That's some miracle Milan! Imagine if Albertini actually DID play well.
I don't mean to roast Demitrio here. He was a faithful milan servant and I respect that. But in today's Milan he would never break into the first team, and at best I can classify him as Serie A worthy - but absolutely not Milan worthy. Even back in 1994, when Milan had one killer season, I remember talking to a friend on the phone who asked me what Albertini gives the team. I thought and thought and thought and the best I could come up with was, he tries to win balls back.
friend, you totally misunderstood what i said. read again from my first post. i said albertini in his last few years, meaning after capello have left. all the great players you have mentioned are no longer around. i don't see how wrong i was. milan during that few years are really bad and albertini whether you like it or not is the leader during that time. he sux and milan also sux. but the worse part is if he didn't play, milan play even worse. that's how bad milan was during that time. you totally miss the time period i was talking about. or is it you tried to erase that unhappy time period. :sagrin:
As you said, Nadir, everyone is entitled to an opinion so I am not sure what are these reactions of yours to other's opinions. As for your opinions, keep them and express them, but when the facts speek against them maybe, just maybe, you'd better give it a better thought and stop seeing yourself as the messiah of football you are NOT.
Good luck on your long quest of waking up and finally coming to reality.
if criticism of your hero capello hurts, don't kill the messenger who brought the painful reality to you. i never said i was a messiah of football. please quote where i said that or even suggested it.
i have no time for people who decide on personal criticisms when they have no facts to resort to :) any more "Facts" you would like to talk about - like albertini being bought by capello? haha. oh wait, you withdrew that didn't you?
again, as i said, you have a right to your opinions. i just don't agree with them. no need to throw a hissy fit cus of that.
friend, you totally misunderstood what i said. read again from my first post. i said albertini in his last few years, meaning after capello have left. all the great players you have mentioned are no longer around. i don't see how wrong i was. milan during that few years are really bad and albertini whether you like it or not is the leader during that time. he sux and milan also sux. but the worse part is if he didn't play, milan play even worse. that's how bad milan was during that time. you totally miss the time period i was talking about. or is it you tried to erase that unhappy time period. :sagrin:
lol ok. i remember that time well and you are right the whole team sucked. but sorry if i don't share your enthusiasm for albertini during this period :D
A few seconds was what turned it.
Cast your minds back to March 2003, the quarter finals of the Champions League, San Siro, Milan v. Ajax. It's 2-2 and the last minute of injury time. Milan are going out as things stand. Pippo Inzaghi gets a touch on a Shevchenko cross, and John Dahl Tomasson touches the ball into the net, before reeling away to celebrate the winner. However, the assistant referee has flagged, and the goal is ruled out. Milan go out of the Champions League to Ajax on away goals, and the tournament is eventually won by Inter, their first for 38 years. At the end of the season Milan finish third and Carlo Ancelotti, having presided over two years of failure as coach, is relieved of his duties and replaced by the up and coming Claudio Prandelli.
That didn't happen, right.
But it could have.
I know I'm dealing in the fantastical here, but have we all forgotten that 18 months ago everyone was calling for Ancelotti's head. The bright early season form had petered out into mediocrity, his brave experiment of playing Andrea Pirlo in front of the defence had been worked out by opposing coaches and the big names (Shevchenko, Rui Costa et al) had been disappointing all year. Had that last minute winner against Ajax not gone in (I know it wasn't offside by the way, just using that as a possibility), then there is no way in my mind that Ancelotti would be coach right now, much less referred to as a legend. The Champions League victory saved his job, and it is to his ultimate credit that he went on to cement his place as a leading coach by winning the Scudetto last season. However, I still have my doubts about whether he will be regarded as a true legend in a few years, for simple reasons.
1. Coaches are only as good as their last results. Very few coaches finish their careers with particular clubs on truly good terms, no matter how successful they have been. Just look at how Vicente Del Bosque was dealt with at Real despite winning two Champions League titles. Or Klaus Toppmoeller, who took Bayer Leverkusen to the Champions League final but has since been sacked twice. Or Marcello Lippi twice at Juventus. Reputations of coaches can rise and fall based on what happened most recently. The very fact that some posters here are heavily criticising Capello who won far more than Ancelotti (don't count silly trophies like the Super Cups as real career defining achievements) during his time at Milan shows how clearly this can be exemplified. A far better example is Arrigo Sacchi, who won the Scudetto and two European Cups with Milan between 1988 and 1990. Would you define him as a legend? His later years with Italy, Milan, Atletico Madrid and Parma stripped him of that status and led to him becoming one of the most maligned figures in calcio. Who is to say that Ancelotti's results will not desert him, and at a club like Milan where there is always pressure to deliver success (ie two things; Scudettos and European Cups) the potential for failure is huge. Juve are already six points clear at the top of Serie A, (I know teams, particularly those coached by Ancelotti, have blown far bigger leads, but this is not my point) and if they carry on to victory, that leaves the European Cup this season. What happens if Milan are eliminated in the next round? It has happened bigger clubs before. Questions will no doubt be asked. But before anyone assumes I am suggesting Ancelotti's dismissal, I am merely examining future circumstances which are directly relevent to his "legendary" status. If, over this season and next, he fails to deliver at least one of either the Scudetto or the Champions League to Milanello then I suspect he will be replaced. Zaccheroni won the Scudetto in his first season and less than two years later his cases were packed.
2. He may get itchy feet. How many clubs have regarded coaches as legendary, only for them to be castigated when they quit and take over at a rival. The example this summer past of Fabio Capello deserting Roma for their hated enemies Juventus is pertinent. What if Ancelotti walks out on Milan to take over at Real Madrid? Or Manchester United? Or Inter? Coaches would often seem willing to take any job which pays the highest wages, so who is to say he might not jump ship given the oppurtunity in a couple of seasons. That would certainly damage his claims to be regarded as a "legend".
As for the diversion this thread took, Capello deserves to be regarded as the outstanding Italian coach of his generation. Four Scudettos in five years with three European Cup finals including one victory with Milan, a Primera Liga title with Real Madrid, a further Scudetto with Roma of all teams and now likely further success with Juventus. I'd say he will, once he retires, be regarded as a true legend of calcio.
1. Coaches are only as good as their last results.
sacchi's last results at milan were horrible. i am referring to his second coming. he is still remembered as a legend at milan.
A few seconds was what turned it.
Cast your minds back to March 2003, the quarter finals of the Champions League, San Siro, Milan v. Ajax. It's 2-2 and the last minute of injury time. Milan are going out as things stand. Pippo Inzaghi gets a touch on a Shevchenko cross, and John Dahl Tomasson touches the ball into the net, before reeling away to celebrate the winner. However, the assistant referee has flagged, and the goal is ruled out. Milan go out of the Champions League to Ajax on away goals, and the tournament is eventually won by Inter, their first for 38 years. At the end of the season Milan finish third and Carlo Ancelotti, having presided over two years of failure as coach, is relieved of his duties and replaced by the up and coming Claudio Prandelli.
That didn't happen, right.
But it could have.
I know I'm dealing in the fantastical here, but have we all forgotten that 18 months ago everyone was calling for Ancelotti's head. The bright early season form had petered out into mediocrity, his brave experiment of playing Andrea Pirlo in front of the defence had been worked out by opposing coaches and the big names (Shevchenko, Rui Costa et al) had been disappointing all year. Had that last minute winner against Ajax not gone in (I know it wasn't offside by the way, just using that as a possibility), then there is no way in my mind that Ancelotti would be coach right now, much less referred to as a legend. The Champions League victory saved his job, and it is to his ultimate credit that he went on to cement his place as a leading coach by winning the Scudetto last season. However, I still have my doubts about whether he will be regarded as a true legend in a few years, for simple reasons.
1. Coaches are only as good as their last results. Very few coaches finish their careers with particular clubs on truly good terms, no matter how successful they have been. Just look at how Vicente Del Bosque was dealt with at Real despite winning two Champions League titles. Or Klaus Toppmoeller, who took Bayer Leverkusen to the Champions League final but has since been sacked twice. Or Marcello Lippi twice at Juventus. Reputations of coaches can rise and fall based on what happened most recently. The very fact that some posters here are heavily criticising Capello who won far more than Ancelotti (don't count silly trophies like the Super Cups as real career defining achievements) during his time at Milan shows how clearly this can be exemplified. A far better example is Arrigo Sacchi, who won the Scudetto and two European Cups with Milan between 1988 and 1990. Would you define him as a legend? His later years with Italy, Milan, Atletico Madrid and Parma stripped him of that status and led to him becoming one of the most maligned figures in calcio. Who is to say that Ancelotti's results will not desert him, and at a club like Milan where there is always pressure to deliver success (ie two things; Scudettos and European Cups) the potential for failure is huge. Juve are already six points clear at the top of Serie A, (I know teams, particularly those coached by Ancelotti, have blown far bigger leads, but this is not my point) and if they carry on to victory, that leaves the European Cup this season. What happens if Milan are eliminated in the next round? It has happened bigger clubs before. Questions will no doubt be asked. But before anyone assumes I am suggesting Ancelotti's dismissal, I am merely examining future circumstances which are directly relevent to his "legendary" status. If, over this season and next, he fails to deliver at least one of either the Scudetto or the Champions League to Milanello then I suspect he will be replaced. Zaccheroni won the Scudetto in his first season and less than two years later his cases were packed.
2. He may get itchy feet. How many clubs have regarded coaches as legendary, only for them to be castigated when they quit and take over at a rival. The example this summer past of Fabio Capello deserting Roma for their hated enemies Juventus is pertinent. What if Ancelotti walks out on Milan to take over at Real Madrid? Or Manchester United? Or Inter? Coaches would often seem willing to take any job which pays the highest wages, so who is to say he might not jump ship given the oppurtunity in a couple of seasons. That would certainly damage his claims to be regarded as a "legend".
As for the diversion this thread took, Capello deserves to be regarded as the outstanding Italian coach of his generation. Four Scudettos in five years with three European Cup finals including one victory with Milan, a Primera Liga title with Real Madrid, a further Scudetto with Roma of all teams and now likely further success with Juventus. I'd say he will, once he retires, be regarded as a true legend of calcio.
excellent post. you are right on many points. but it's a matter of what matters most to fans. for example, for me, no matter how much capello did for Milan, his betrayal of the team (who in turn betrayed him) by chosing his ego over success for Milan was too much for me and many Milan fans. By this I mean, how he didn't play Savicevic (who was at his peak) in two IMPORTANT finals - the Intercontinental Cup, by claiming Il Genio was sick and the 1995 CL final, by claiming he was injured. In both instances, Il Genio said he was fit to play. His hatred for him was well known and it is only because Berlusconi loved him so much, that Capello was unable to transfer list Savicevic. I am not a HUGE savicevic fan - but I am a fan of Milan before I am a fan of Fabio Capello or whatever coach comes to the red and black team. To me, what capello did is unforgivable and rightly he is coaching one Milan's biggest rivals now - Juve. It would be sheer pleasure for me (again) seeing Milan beat a team that Capello is coaching - like they did last year with Roma.
you must be talking about some bizarro milan which revolved around albertini hahah. trust me - i have been watching milan since i was a kid and i have been watching every game closely. i am sorry but you've got to be joking when you say that the team formation was selected around albertini and that he was the central figure at milan that tactics revolved around. Maybe you didn't know, but during Albertini's presence at Milan, Milan had a few players like Gullit, Virdis, Ancelotti, Savicevic, Boban, Papin, Rijkaard and Donadoni.
Don't dare compare Pirlo with Albertini.
You really are clueless :)
As for the topic it have a big problem, you can't distinguish a coachs player career for a club with their managerial one. both MUST be taken into account when we talk about them getting a legend status. Anything else will just be silly speculation until the end of time as the reality will be a judgement of both, moreso since he was hired on basis of his playing time with us...
I know I'm dealing in the fantastical here, but have we all forgotten that 18 months ago everyone was calling for Ancelotti's head. The bright early season form had petered out into mediocrity, his brave experiment of playing Andrea Pirlo in front of the defence had been worked out by opposing coaches and the big names (Shevchenko, Rui Costa et al) had been disappointing all year. Had that last minute winner against Ajax not gone in (I know it wasn't offside by the way, just using that as a possibility), then there is no way in my mind that Ancelotti would be coach right now, much less referred to as a legend. The Champions League victory saved his job, and it is to his ultimate credit that he went on to cement his place as a leading coach by winning the Scudetto last season.
1. Everyone was not calling for his head at that point, the season was already better than everyone since 1995/96. I surerly was not.
2. I doubt he would be sacked even if we lost that game, things where not that bad and Galliani have quite some faith in him. Zaccheroni was given much more time with less results...
3. Of course he would not be considered a coach legend with us if he had been sacked, however unlikely that was.
You really are clueless :)
What particular part of his post was clueless and in what way? the only part I could pick on was his last line as Pirlo and Albertini surerly is compareable.
It should not be a topic for discussion whether or not the midfield revolved around Albertini, it’s a fact and so it’s irrelevant whether you think he’s a quality player, it’s a question of his position on the field and the role he’s filling out in the center of midfield . Moreever it’s incomprehensible to me why you’d mention attacking players like Virdis (by the way a man who quit Milan long before Albertini ever got a regular spot in the team), Gullit, Savicevic, Boban, Papin and Donadoni.
Finally, as mentioned, if it ever makes sense to compare players, which comparison is more likely to make than Pirlo vs. Albertini - the current Milan playmaker (spilopbygger) and his predecessor.
kris, you think Ancelotti wasn't under pressure that season? The team was listless for ages, and failure in the Champions League could very well have been a step too far. I admit I was rash in suggesting Ancelotti would have been sacked immediately if Milan hadn't won the Champions League, but what sort of a situation would Milan have been in with a quarter final exit and third in Serie A? Most likely, he'd have been given another season, and failure then would have been the final straw. But you do see my point.
As for fan criticism, I would say it was at quite a high level before the Ajax game. I remember Ancelotti's first season, which was abysmal after he took over from Terim. There certainly was a degree of criticism then, and it began to reemerge the following season once our Scudetto challenge petered out.
I agree Zaccheroni was given far more time, but he got that because he won the Scudetto at the first attempt. Arguably that fluke of a title was the worst thing that ever happened to Milan, because it gave Galliani and Berlusconi the belief they could win trophies on the cheap, wrecking completely Milan's next two seasons. It also left us stuck with a coach completely out of his depth in European competition, whoever he's been with. I'm certainly no great admirer of Zac, and see Ancelotti as a far superior coach. I'm just hesitant about declaring him as having achieved the same level as Lippi or Capello. As for the Capello/Savicevic feud, who is to say he was wrong. Savicevic was perhaps one of the most inconsistent players ever to play in Serie A. If he had played against Ajax in 1995, who is to say he wouldn't have been absolutely awful. As for the Super Cup, wasn't that the one where Billy Costacurta had an absolute nightmare? Coaches are historically indifferent to players of the Savicevic mould- outrageously gifted but gloriously inconsistent. Berlusconi is a fan as well as president, of course he wanted Il Genio to play. Capello was right more often than he was wrong in that respect. As for his subsequent standing, Capello's biggest mistake was ever returning to Milan. The old saying "you should never go back" was ignored by him on that occasion, and it is the only blight on his otherwise excellent record.
kris, you think Ancelotti wasn't under pressure that season? The team was listless for ages, and failure in the Champions League could very well have been a step too far. I admit I was rash in suggesting Ancelotti would have been sacked immediately if Milan hadn't won the Champions League, but what sort of a situation would Milan have been in with a quarter final exit and third in Serie A? Most likely, he'd have been given another season, and failure then would have been the final straw. But you do see my point.
As for fan criticism, I would say it was at quite a high level before the Ajax game. I remember Ancelotti's first season, which was abysmal after he took over from Terim. There certainly was a degree of criticism then, and it began to reemerge the following season once our Scudetto challenge petered out.
I agree Zaccheroni was given far more time, but he got that because he won the Scudetto at the first attempt. Arguably that fluke of a title was the worst thing that ever happened to Milan, because it gave Galliani and Berlusconi the belief they could win trophies on the cheap, wrecking completely Milan's next two seasons. It also left us stuck with a coach completely out of his depth in European competition, whoever he's been with. I'm certainly no great admirer of Zac, and see Ancelotti as a far superior coach. I'm just hesitant about declaring him as having achieved the same level as Lippi or Capello. As for the Capello/Savicevic feud, who is to say he was wrong. Savicevic was perhaps one of the most inconsistent players ever to play in Serie A. If he had played against Ajax in 1995, who is to say he wouldn't have been absolutely awful. As for the Super Cup, wasn't that the one where Billy Costacurta had an absolute nightmare? Coaches are historically indifferent to players of the Savicevic mould- outrageously gifted but gloriously inconsistent. Berlusconi is a fan as well as president, of course he wanted Il Genio to play. Capello was right more often than he was wrong in that respect. As for his subsequent standing, Capello's biggest mistake was ever returning to Milan. The old saying "you should never go back" was ignored by him on that occasion, and it is the only blight on his otherwise excellent record.
ancelotti certainly didn't do too bad coming in the middle of a season and drag milan back into CL for the next season. terim's milan was absolutely crazy. entertaining to watch but super inconsistent and unable to dig in their heels for the results.
without spending much money, ancelotti have transform a pathetic milan to one of the best in europe. if that is not good then i don't know what is.
It should not be a topic for discussion whether or not the midfield revolved around Albertini, it’s a fact and so it’s irrelevant whether you think he’s a quality player, it’s a question of his position on the field and the role he’s filling out in the center of midfield . Moreever it’s incomprehensible to me why you’d mention attacking players like Virdis (by the way a man who quit Milan long before Albertini ever got a regular spot in the team), Gullit, Savicevic, Boban, Papin and Donadoni.
He didn't talk about Milans midfield being build around Albertini, he said that our tactics was not built around him. Quite a difference here. As for about midfield it could be said that it revolved a lot around him up until Boban under Zaccheroni became main man. After that he lost a bit of his dominance there.
kris, you think Ancelotti wasn't under pressure that season? The team was listless for ages, and failure in the Champions League could very well have been a step too far. I admit I was rash in suggesting Ancelotti would have been sacked immediately if Milan hadn't won the Champions League, but what sort of a situation would Milan have been in with a quarter final exit and third in Serie A? Most likely, he'd have been given another season, and failure then would have been the final straw. But you do see my point.
As for fan criticism, I would say it was at quite a high level before the Ajax game. I remember Ancelotti's first season, which was abysmal after he took over from Terim. There certainly was a degree of criticism then, and it began to reemerge the following season once our Scudetto challenge petered out.
We agree, I just contested your points where it looked like you claimed that he would have been sacked (as more of a certainty) and that all Milans fans wanted his head. As for fans remember that the nay-sayers is always the most load group that always looks to be more numerical than they are.
He didn't talk about Milans midfield being build around Albertini, he said that our tactics was not built around him. Quite a difference here.
That's the point, he was replying to the following part:
he may not play well but he is the centre of that milan team. just like how pirlo is now the centre of this milan team
- which is true.
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