I've been saying for months we're toe to toe with Juve. And last season from November to May we were. Even better at some points. But given the way they've strengthened while we've basically signed only Poli and their start to the competitive season it's pretty clear Juve are the strongest team in Serie A.
I always felt while we had a stronger first team they had a better squad. In theory I stand by the first comment but the squad wins you the league, not your best 11.
Going by our start to Serie A where we lose quite convincingly to HV while Juve travel to Genoa and their star striker scores the winner, Juve will be the ones to stop while we continue to have a soft centre.
That said, no Italian team will have a credible run in the CL. Whole league is far too far behind the best teams in Europe.
Juventus' squad had only one weakness (needing a WC striker), and all we had was just one WC striker in Balotelli (while we need quality midfielders, central defenders, goalkeeper). This season, they had Tevez, while we haven't really strengthened our squad.
I think you underestimated Juve, and still do. I think with small luck, they can be in the semifinal of UCL.
(08-25-2013, 03:57 PM)xudong Wrote: [ -> ]Juventus' squad had only one weakness (needing a WC striker), and all we had was just one WC striker in Balotelli (while we need quality midfielders, central defenders, goalkeeper). This season, they had Tevez, while we haven't really strengthened our squad.
I think you underestimated Juve, and still do. I think with small luck, they can be in the semifinal of UCL.
Juventus are far far far ahead of Serie A, but miles behind Bayern, Barca, Real and even the best in England.
They're better equipped for the CL than us but they will be happy with last 16 like us.
I don't agree that they are miles behinds Europe's best, and especially England's best. I think you are underestimating Juventus and overestimating (compared to Juve)the rest of Europe.
Juventus were in a group with Chelsea last year (one of England's best) and managed just fine. They can easily take care of English teams just fine. (so can we with the right 2 signings)
Like I said, I think you are overrating other teams. I think apart from Bayern, Barca and Real (this one is ?).....everyone else is beatable. Even those teams are beatable if you play your cards right. Just look at Bayern and how they took care of business, as until last year everyone thought that Barca is unbeatable. Until this summer, Spain was unbeatable......
This is a new season and many things will change during the course of it. People last year thought we would e mid table, yet look what happened. The most important part right now is to beat PSV, and then things will settle...especially if we get our creativity on the market.
Juve look like the best now, but they also did last year until we outperformed them in the spring. We will see what happens. I think with 2 signings we will be up there and able to compete with everyone.
(08-27-2013, 12:57 AM)nefremo Wrote: [ -> ]I don't agree that they are miles behinds Europe's best, and especially England's best. I think you are underestimating Juventus and overestimating (compared to Juve)the rest of Europe.
Really? Best in Europe - the bedrock of benchmarking is Bayern. Who destroyed them. tbh they didn't even convincingly beat the utterly rubbish Celtic from my understanding.
Quote:Juventus were in a group with Chelsea last year (one of England's best) and managed just fine. They can easily take care of English teams just fine. (so can we with the right 2 signings)
Did you actually WATCH Chelsea last year? They finished a distant third and they were absolutely horrendous, first under RDM, then slightly better under Benitez - enough to win the diddy cup that is the Europa League. Mainly because they got papped out of the CL at the group stage - the first EVER champion to go out. Even Shakhtar finished above them! What I'm saying is that group was weak. VERY weak.
But things change over the summer and while English teams sucked last season in Europe the main 3 have addressed it. And so on paper they look far stronger. So it's via that I'm judging - not last season.
Quote:Like I said, I think you are overrating other teams. I think apart from Bayern, Barca and Real (this one is ?).....everyone else is beatable.
In my view every team who got to the quarters can beat Juve. I'd also add a cluster of other teams to that.
They are stronger than anyone in Serie A but last 16 is their target imo.
Quote: Even those teams are beatable if you play your cards right. Just look at Bayern and how they took care of business, as until last year everyone thought that Barca is unbeatable. Until this summer, Spain was unbeatable......
Don't count me among the Barca fanboys. I knew when they came up against anyone with tactics to stop them they'd struggle. And they did.
Quote:This is a new season and many things will change during the course of it. People last year thought we would e mid table, yet look what happened. The most important part right now is to beat PSV, and then things will settle...especially if we get our creativity on the market.
Juve look like the best now, but they also did last year until we outperformed them in the spring. We will see what happens. I think with 2 signings we will be up there and able to compete with everyone.
It's curious how I'm saying Juve are better than I gave them credit for, and the disagreements I'm receiving are that they're better than I give them credit for
- yes, the benchmark is (was, as this is a new season....like I said, until last year the benchmark was Barca) Bayern. They also destroyed Barcelona though so I don't see how Juve losing to them is a problem.
- I did watch Chelsea last season. A LOT. You questioning that shows a lot of arrogance on your part. (No knock intended, just think you always write well constructed post so I didn't see why you would say that)) Chelsea is one of England's best...isn't that what you said in your first post?...that Juve is weaker then England's best? They looked great on paper last year too. So did City. So did Utd. Yet they all failed. Stop overrating them because they look great on paper. You shouldn't judge teams on paper.
- for someone like you that looks at the paper rosters, you shouldn't call Shaktar weak. That was not a weak group. On paper (since you look at things that way), it was supposed to be one of te best ones.
- I don't count you as a Barca fanboy :-)
- I'm not giving arguments that Juve is stronger then what you say they are. I'm saying that things change from September till May. Teams look great on paper and look unbeatable (barca) and then they are destroyed. That can very well be Bayern this season. Lets wait and see how teams click along the season. If Juventus does (like Bayern did last year for example) then they can surely beat those tams you talk about. That's my opinion. At this point, judging from last season....only Bayern and perhaps Barca seem ahead of the group. The others are beatable depending on form/tactics. That includes the English teams.
I must say I'm with nefremo on this one, I think Juve are a strong side that can compete at the highest level (I say this as someone who doesn't like to admit such things). I certainly don't think they're behind England's best, as I'd probably favour Juve over any English side at the moment.
As for against the best of the rest of Europe, I think it's difficult to gauge where Juve are at. Bayern, Barca, Real, Man Utd, Man City, Chelsea and PSG all have new managers and therefore we don't know how strong these teams actually are, even if they have some great players. Dortmund, who I consider mostly after their achievements last season, have lost some key players and it's hard to know if they're still as strong. On paper, these teams have bigger stars than Juve, but that really means nothing as far as I'm concerned.
Juve showed last season that while they simply weren't as good as Bayern, most teams failed to compete with Bayern. However, Bayern hit their peak last year after building this group over many, many years. Guardiola will have the same players, but we all know how difficult it is for new managers to take over a new team, especially one which has just had so much success.
As for us, I think we need to stick to our project. We're a good side despite what the press says. We're not up there to compete in Europe, but we can push in the league with what we have.
As long as we don't lose sight of what we began a year ago, we can and should get better over time, despite have to go through difficult periods like we're doing now.
As always I agree with Dev. One particularly good point is the continuity concern with almost all the major clubs. Coach wise, IMHO, MU is worse off (no one can compete with SAF), City is better off (it was Mancini, no?
), Bayern is worse off (yes, I do think so), Real Madrid is about the same (I love Carlo Ancelotti), Chelsea is better off (though I hate Mourinho), Barca is a big uncertainy, PSG is a small uncertainty, Inter seems better off (though they are not in CL), Napoli is better off (RB is good for CL). The above evaluation is based on coach change only.
A crazy summer, and I am afraid that just gave Juventus its golden chance to achieve something really big.
Exactly Xudong. Juve have a great opportunity this year to try and push for great things. However, if in their shoes I'd be annoyed at the comments recently made by Tevez who thinks they're a bit behind.
I'll make no further comment on this and will let the CL speak for itself. I'm either right or wrong. If I'm wrong I'll admit it. If I'm right I expect all of you naysayers to concede defeat
(08-27-2013, 05:04 PM)nefremo Wrote: [ -> ]- I did watch Chelsea last season. A LOT. You questioning that shows a lot of arrogance on your part. (No knock intended, just think you always write well constructed post so I didn't see why you would say that)) Chelsea is one of England's best...isn't that what you said in your first post?...that Juve is weaker then England's best? They looked great on paper last year too. So did City. So did Utd. Yet they all failed. Stop overrating them because they look great on paper. You shouldn't judge teams on paper.
Apologies for the arrogant tone in my post, not intentional - it was just disbelief that you'd consider last year's Chelsea as impressive. They went through 2 managers they were that bad. EPL was a bizarre league - Everton, who weren't anything impressive were 6th. And City, generally quite dire by the previous season's standards, were horrible yet still finished second.
EPL wasn't strong last year, YET I still believe this season's City, Utd, Chelsea and Arsenal are all far stronger than Juve. Yes, even Arsenal who never sign anyone decent. Yet last season's Arsenal went further than your Chelsea in the CL.
But, time will tell and I'll hold my hands up if Juve do as well as you all imply they will.