A concession

[nefremo]

It's no problem Danny. I enjoy debating this game.

I agree though, there is no point going back and forth as time will tell itself.

About Chelsea, I think you misunderstood. I don't think they were impressive last year. On the contrary, I agree with you that they were terrible.....which is the point I was trying to make. Every year they (and other big teams, especially English since we were debating about them mainly) enter the season as supposed favorites. It was the case last year as it is the case this year. So my whole point was that we can't know whether they'll be stronger ten Juve until the season is well under way. After all...they were supposed to be stronger last yer but turned out to be terrible...all the English teams.

In any case, like you said, lets wait and see. I will come back at the end of the season and admit defeat if Juve doesn't get past the rd if 16. Or if try are unable to beat the English teams or any other top team in Europe. :-)

[Danny]

Well we'll see how they get on v Real Madrid. It's an otherwise fairly simple group for them that they should qualify from, but I'd be surprised and reluctantly impressed if they can beat the Galacticos either home or away.

[WCmilan]

Chelsea was rubbish last season, they are strong on paper but fact is they were a crumbling squad last season who couldn't even put coaching matters in place. Imagine having to switch tactics every 4 months while bringing in and out new players.

Maybe this year Chelsea will be a team to beat, they have a coach in place (mind you a very good coach) who also has a successful history with Chelsea and Abramovich's full backing (for once). Now is the time that the 'paper' strength Chelsea has will be shown on the pitch. Last season there was too much going on to even bother arguing that matter right now.

But I'll say this, Juve is no push over team. Actually, I think if they came up against Bayern/Madrid or Barca they'd give a fair fight. Let's not forget Bayern may have beat Rubentus and for the most part outplayed them, but Barca got pounded 7-0 on aggregate. I think Bayern's simply too strong, but if Rubentus can avoid them and possibly Madrid and Barca then I see no reason why they can't win the entire thing.

Sorry but, EPL clubs are overrated and I believe Juve, actually even Milan would stand a fair match against any of them.

[Danny]

I think the EPL as a league has deteriorated big time in years. It's not got the clout in Europe it used to have but its top clubs I'd still say are far ahead of Italy's.

But hey, Napoli have Arsenal so we'll see how the second best in Italy fare against the 4th best in England. Going by what you guys say Napoli will have no problem competing with them.

As for Juve, their results V Real will make for intriguing conversation in here.

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I think Bayern's simply too strong, but if Rubentus can avoid them and possibly Madrid and Barca then I see no reason why they can't win the entire thing.

So basically if Juve can avoid the best teams in Europe they'll win the CL?

I think you may have slightly missed the point of this tournament

[ACM2023]

I think Bayern's simply too strong, but if Rubentus can avoid them and possibly Madrid and Barca then I see no reason why they can't win the entire thing.

So basically if Juve can avoid the best teams in Europe they'll win the CL?

I think you may have slightly missed the point of this tournament

What he meant was that Juventus can go really far unless they are drawn against Bayern early like last year. If they don't have to play Bayern early, they may not need to play them at all. Football has a lot of luck involved - Bayern may be eliminated by some odd teams for some strange reasons (getting cocky, bad refereeing, volcano eruption ). Remember UCL 2003-2004, when all the "strong" teams were eliminated like crazy before semi-finals?

[WCmilan]

Thanks Xu, and Danny I think you have missed the point of CL because anything is possible in it so its not fair to write Juve off. Sure it would be better they avoid madrid barca and bayern but even if they do get them it doesnt mean they wont go through because they arent favorites.

Its contradictory that you bring up Celtic in how theyll be practically impossoble to beat at home (even thougg they are much weaker than us) you just further point out my premise in that luck plays a big factor in CL. If celtic can beat Milan,or you believe they can then why cant Juve who are 10x celtic beat bayern or barca? You should look to previous cls like Xu mentioned where these teams were eliminated by complete underdogs.

Take WC2006 as a prime example, an even stronger competition. Italy avoided strong teams early on until Germany and France in the semis and final, while brazil and argentina etc. were eliminated by other teams, then they put out two hard fought games and won the whole thing.

[Danny]

Because Celtic have the best home record in the group stage of the CL in the competition's history. They're a freak and normal logic and comparison doesn't apply to them. Whether it's luck, their stadium, or the claustrophobia of the atmosphere they have SOMETHING there and there's no contradiction here.

I know them a lot better than possibly anyone else on here. I don't mean that cockily or arrogantly. Trust me on this.

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What he meant was that Juventus can go really far unless they are drawn against Bayern early like last year. If they don't have to play Bayern early, they may not need to play them at all. Football has a lot of luck involved - Bayern may be eliminated by some odd teams for some strange reasons (getting cocky, bad refereeing, volcano eruption ).

Come on, you're bringing in erroneous unpredictable variables which validate MILAN winning it as much as Juve. Which validate ANYONE winning it. I'm not looking at crazy chance, I'm keeping it to the quality of the teams which is usually what shines through.

Like last season - the last 4 teams in it were Europe's 4 strongest teams.

That is usually how it works.

Remember UCL 2003-2004, when all the "strong" teams were eliminated like crazy before semi-finals?

Yes I do, and do you not remember Porto had to BEAT one of them themselves in the last 16? Man Utd?

Mind you, Monaco had Real Madrid in the quarters.

My point is it's simply invalid to say any finalist or semi finalist or winner of the CL can ever do it via an easy or lucky draw.

That's plain wrong. Sorry. Never has happened, never will.

[ACM2023]

Porto eliminated Man United thanks to referee mistakes - of course Mourinho never brought it up. Inter Milan defeated Barcelona thanks to their admirable determination, but not without enormous amount of luck (volcano, fatigue, arrogance, referee mistakes). Of course Mourinho only talks about Busquets' faking injury. Inter Milan defeated Bayern Munich. They were the better team in that match, but Bayern should have got two penalties.

Football is full of unpredictability; while unpredictability alone may not suffice taking one team to the very end, any team would certainly benefit greatly through easy or lucky draw. Was Real Madrid a strong team in UCL 2011-12? Of course, they beat CSKA at round of 16 (1-1, 4-1), then APOEL at QF (3-0, 5-2). Would Real Madrid still have reached SF without such lucky draw? Probably yes. Was AC Milan a strong team in UCL 2011-12? Not so much. Would Milan reach SF if they were scheduled to play CSKA at round of 16 and APOEL at QF? Probably yes; perhaps not winning at as comfortable margins as RM would, but it would be very likely that we would be in SF. To claim that there has never been a team reaching SF via easy/lucky draw is wrong; to claim that there will never be a team reaching SF via easy/lucky draw is wrong.

My point is it's simply invalid to say any finalist or semi finalist or winner of the CL can ever do it via an easy or lucky draw.

That's plain wrong. Sorry. Never has happened, never will.

[ZvonimirBoban]

Milan never got an easy draw because of its own fault. Seeded in pot 2 will more likely ends in 2nd place so we have to face 1st fron another group.

[ACM2023]

When we were in pot 1, we got Real Madrid from pot 2; when we were in pot 2, we got Barcelona from pot 1; and finally when we were in pot 1 again and got a "weak" team in Malaga, everyone (myself included) was so happy and relieved. Then Malaga kicked our ass and almost beat the eventual runners-up Dortmund too.