Liverno Milan post game comments [Archive]

almilan

23-01-2005, 11:39

This is going to be a depressing thread but here goes anyway

report from www.channel4.com

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Serie A Week 20 - 23/1/05 (15.00)
Livorno 1 - 0 Milan
Colombo 28 (L)
Stadio Armando Picchi

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Corrado Colombo has sealed Milan's first away defeat of the season and left them five points adrift of leaders Juventus.

Two former Rossoneri teammates face off on the sidelines, as Carlo Ancelotti and Roberto Donadoni were key to the 'Grande Milan' of the 1980's and 90's. He had started his Serie A Coaching career with last week's 3-1 win over Messina, but Milan were eager for a victory to further close the gap on leaders Juventus.

Massimo Ambrosini stepped in for the suspended Andrea Pirlo in the Milan midfield, while Vikash Dhorasoo was chosen ahead of Clarence Seedorf. Surprisingly, Igor Protti was again left on the Livorno bench in favour of Corrado Colombo.

The visitors had a strong start with a save on Kaka, but Jaap Stam was called into a crucial intervention as Colombo came sliding in from close range. The conditions weren't too conducive to attractive play as there was heavy rainfall on the Stadio Picchi.

There was controversy on 16 minutes when Cristiano Lucarelli dribbled past Alessandro Nesta, then fell under Dida's challenge. With the goalkeeper down two shots were charged down by defenders, but replays suggest Dida did not make contact with the ball.

Milan were having the better of the early play and Dhorasoo set Kaka moving for the Brazilian to run past three defenders and his low drive thumped the base of the upright.

However, it was Livorno who took the lead after 28 minutes. The Milan defence was caught ball-watching as Dida saved a Jose Luis Vidigal header from Passoni's free kick, but could do nothing on Colombo's follow-up from six yards.

Crespo had the opportunity to draw level less than a minute later when he sprung the offside trap, but he tried to cut back on to his favoured foot and the chance went begging.

The referee got on the wrong side of both teams, as Milan were livid that Crespo was not awarded a penalty for Fabio Galante's shirt-tug.

Livorno nearly doubled their lead with an identical move to the goal, but this time Dida was ready with a brilliant fingertip reaction save on Galante's header.

The Tuscans had an even clearer opportunity within a minute of the restart as Stam was keeping Vigiani on side, but he somehow drilled wide of the target with only Dida to beat.

It was an extremely tense encounter and after 51 minutes Andriy Shevchenko and Alessandro Lucarelli were both booked for their scuffle. The Ukrainian appeared to be nudged as he watched a cross come in and got back up to push his marker away.

Vigiani wasted another golden opportunity on the counter-attack and Crespo's headed goal was disallowed for a push on Alessandro Lucarelli.

Igor Protti came on and nearly made it 2-0 for Livorno as Cristiano Lucarelli held up the ball for the veteran, but his low drive was smothered by Dida.

Milan's Brazilian goalkeeper was again forced into a splendid reaction save on Cristiano Lucarelli's deflected angled drive and protected the loose ball from Protti.

Moments later the Rossoneri were furious with the referee as Shevchenko was brought down by goalkeeper Marco Amelia and their penalty appeals were waved away. He had lifted Seedorf's pass over the 'keeper and Amelia did not make contact with the ball.

Milan's day was made even worse in stoppages when Alessandro Nesta was sent off for a second bookable offence as he brought down Protti. From the position Dida fingertipped Cristiano Lucarelli's free kick on to the crossbar.

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Milan: Dida; Cafu, Stam, Nesta, Maldini; Gattuso (Seedorf 46), Ambrosini (Rui Costa 75), Dhorasoo; Kakà; Shevchenko, Crespo (Tomasson 65)

Livorno: Amelia; Galante, Vargas, A Lucarelli; Balleri, Doga, Vigiani (Grauso 69), Passoni, Vidigal; Colombo (Protti 61), C Lucarelli

Ref: Farina

Sent off: Nesta 93 (M)

Laudrup

23-01-2005, 11:50

Our strikers were being pushed around all game inside Livorno's penalty area (2 clear penalties the ref failed to call) and the minute Crespo won a challenge it was Livorno's freekick and the goal didn't stand. Also, Nesta's 2nd yellow card was simply ridiculous.

Crap :frustrat:

Giovanni

23-01-2005, 11:53

Come on Tyge we didn't play well, simple as that

We tremendously missed Pirlo, and in the next two months i will feel free to slag off Bayman if he says Pirlo's useless

Lombardia

23-01-2005, 11:56

the loss is ancelotti's fault, simple as that, when his a-plan goes wrong, he cleary doesn't know what to do, his changes were useless and too late, and plus he doesn't know how to risk things, this is the one area where he really lacks as a manager.

this defeat has seriously p!ssed me off, everytime we get close to juve we slip up over a small team.

in the 2 games agaisnt livorno, 1 pt :(( thats unacceptable, we need to improve agaisnt these types of teams, or before long we'll just be left with the cl to play for.

almilan

23-01-2005, 11:57

by the report it seems the Farina maybe could have done a better job as ref!
for anyone who saw the match were the penalty appeals valid and should crespos goal have been disallowed, also sandros red card?

Bayman

23-01-2005, 11:59

Come on Tyge we didn't play well, simple as that

We tremendously missed Pirlo, and in the next two months i will feel free to slag off Bayman if he says Pirlo's useless

When you play a player like Ambrosini instead of Pirlo it is a big step down. Why not trying Seedorf - Dhorasoo - gattuso, Carlo?

Jeff

23-01-2005, 12:01

When you play a player like Ambrosini instead of Pirlo it is a big step down. Why not trying Seedorf - Dhorasoo - gattuso, Carlo?

And what if Dhorasoo doesn't play well? Or seedorf? Are you going to make another statement:

"When you play a plyaer like Dhorasoo instead of Pirlo it's a HUGE step down. WHy not try... say... Vicente?"

Bleep, bleep, bleep, bleep said Henrik the human cencur.

At the same time:

Jeff, in a bad mood? :D

We'll bounce back soon, I'm sure of it ;)

I'm sure of it too, but I"m sick of people who pound on all the possibilities to bash the team, without looking at himself in the mirror what he has posted before and now blame someone else.

I'm just so sick of him.

Lombardia

23-01-2005, 12:01

it should have been rui-costa-dhorasso-seedorf-kaka in midfield

ariel

23-01-2005, 12:02

sandro`s red card is simply simply funny and it is outrageous,that was the last drop.imo amelia did faul sheva and it should`ve been a penalty kick,as for crespo`s `goal` i didn`t see it really well so i can`t claim anything for sure. btw totally agreed with gio on pirlo matter.
hopefully we`ll make up fpr this and catch up with dopentus again
Forza Milan

Jeff

23-01-2005, 12:02

Losing is ok.
But looking at Bayman bashing players once lost is just so freaking SICKENING.

Go and dip yourself in chocolate (yummy!) and everything will be better here.
Don't just make stupid post can you?

I don't know the access to all your previous post on Pirlo, but I'm sure the mods. here are more happy to help me out on this :)

J

Warro Bantan

23-01-2005, 12:04

Another chance to keep pace with Juve lost, another opportunity to integrate players that have languished on the bench wasted, another scudetto title given Juve on a platter?

This may be an early premature suggestion, but Juve IMO did not really impress, yet they won, and that is the hall mark of a champion, grinding out results even when you are not playing well.

How much of this loss do I attribute to Carlo? I give him about 80% responsibility.

Why you ask? When he never took the pitch...? He selected the players, indeed, he chose the tactics that would dictate how those players selected played...and the results speak for themselves.

Rui Costa, IMHO, should have started for Pirlo, who was suspended, and I would even say that Ambro could have played in Rino's place, but not on the same pitch, at the same time. That is a recipe for disaster.

We have effectively written off our chances for this year's scudetto, as we have very little hope of catching Juve if we keep up this policy of dropping points just when it seems that we are gaining on the leaders. And these are not just a Roma or a Lazio who will fold under pressure...this is Juve, and they usually dont falter...unless coached by Carlo..hmmmmm see any connection here?

Some may say its still early, and we still have many matches to go. Well, I would love to be proven wrong. This result for me, was the "writing on the wall" as far as our season will go.

We will always come up just a little short.

almilan

23-01-2005, 12:06

When you play a player like Ambrosini instead of Pirlo it is a big step down. Why not trying Seedorf - Dhorasoo - gattuso, Carlo?

i agree that ambrosini was not the best choice, maybe pirlo's absence would not have been noticed as much if rui costa took his place but Bayman I think you should realise that Pirlo is key for us. He is a focal point in our team, everything pretty much goes through him.

He is in my opinion one of the best midfielders around
real madrid and probably many more top clubs want him, we are lucky to have him

Bayman

23-01-2005, 12:08

And what if Dhorasoo doesn't play well? Or seedorf? Are you going to make another statement:

"When you play a plyaer like Dhorasoo instead of Pirlo it's a HUGE step down. WHy not try... say... Vicente?"

F*Ck off.
I'm just so sick of him.

Thing is I'm saying this for 2 years. About Ambro (and Abbiati too). I never said a bad word on Seedorf, Kaka, Sheva. If they have a bad game, they still cariied us through for long enough.

Jeff

23-01-2005, 12:18

Thing is I'm saying this for 2 years. About Ambro (and Abbiati too). I never said a bad word on Seedorf, Kaka, Sheva. If they have a bad game, they still cariied us through for long enough.

Thing is you are saying Pirlo is crap for 2 years. I don't care if you say Amro and Abbiati is bad. Your very first argument is against Pirlo and your final argument is still against Pirlo.

And this is the thing you pissed me off. How the hell do you expect people to believe your so-called 'I-hv-sticked-to-this-idea-for-2-years' attitude when your cricticism of our team is against the brain, the creative mind?

Huh?

Can you be a doctor when you know how to treat hands and legs but don't know a s*it about the brain?

Come on. Wake up. It's not a time for you to celebrate your idea of Vicante or whoever... or to bash players. They have just played one bad game (and is it really bad, I don't really think it's REAL bad, but that's not in the argument here) and now you jump out like a sniper shooting at scapegoat.

I mean, can't you just sing a jule-time song and be self-conscious of your god-damn past postS?

Jeff

23-01-2005, 12:20

meanwhile, let me comment on how crap the referee is.

Shame on Ancelotti saying that Italian's referees are best in the world.
FAR FAR FROM it.

Crespo has been pulled so many f*cking times. Sheva has a clear header denied before he can even jump. On the other side of the pitch, players pulled shirt and tackled from behind without a card.

I tell u... tons of evidence showing the referee sucks in this game. Really bad.
Ancelotti actually went to the referee in the 1st half complaining Crespo being pulled shirt and nothing happend.

the MOST AWFUL refereeing I have seen.

Franco6

23-01-2005, 12:29

We really played bad. FULL STOP.

Ok the ref, made some decisions agianst us but we did nothing to win. They had more clear goal chances and we took a silly goal.

How on earth did Kaka missed that first half chance?????????

Giovanni

23-01-2005, 12:32

Jeff now cut it, Bayman is not offending you and it's a credit to him to keep his head cool even when insulted.

I know he can piss off people like that, but now the message has been received.

Xudong

23-01-2005, 12:42

easy there, jeff. let's keep our chins up. :cool: we are milan, and we will come back. :beer: milan will prevail. doper will fade away. in 4 weeks, i can see that happen. 4 weeks from now.

Xudong

23-01-2005, 12:47

i really like that referee, trefioni or something like that. the young guy who was in our last game with udinese. he always brought us victory. victory against big sides, and big victory against small sides. 3-1 udinese, 5-2 lecce, (2 seasons ago: 2-1 doper, 3-1 bologna). I can't think of any more, but he is so good with us. :v103: when i see him, i know we are safe. :smileani: serious. :tong:

Sylvia

23-01-2005, 13:48

We lost, that's bad, but it can happen, lets just look forward to the next match. I think it's nobody's fault, with a team like this we should be able to beat everybody, it simply doesn't happen all the time, that's football. Next week we will probably win again and everybody will say how good our coach is and how good the players are. It's always funny to read some comments after a lost match.We also must not forget that these so called 'small' teams are terrible to play against! And maybe next time Juve will lose, because Nedved is injured. And I must say the ref was crap, but that's nothing new in Italy! :depress:

But lets not lose hope, there are still many matches to come! :hopefull:

Lombardia

23-01-2005, 14:07

Jeff now cut it, Bayman is not offending you and it's a credit to him to keep his head cool even when insulted.

I know he can piss off people like that, but now the message has been received.

i agree, we may all disagre with his opinion but he's entitled to it, we can totally rip holes inhis arguements but we insulting him personally is totally unacceptable

Dave

23-01-2005, 14:35

I agree that Milan played f... football today! And the penalty was not given to Livorno! :1whis:

Jeff

23-01-2005, 14:35

I don't need this telling me that he is entitled to his opinion.
Everyone is entitled to his opinion and I thought I AM entitled to my opinion about him.

It's a wonder to me you give credit to him for his behavior when I was told to shut up because I don't repsect him.

Dont' forget I'm always the FIRST one to say 'don't just ask him to shut up' because we have really never proved that he is wrong.

And I thought I said I would be the first one to haunt him if what he says is not true PROVEN finally.

And I did.

Jeff

23-01-2005, 14:37

Ok... whatever
it's as simple as that. We'll just buy Vicante (or whatever his name is).

Laudrup

23-01-2005, 14:39

Gio, of course we didn't play very well, except for parts of the first half. After their goal against the run of play they made it very, very difficult for us, pressing us everywhere on the field while they were dangerous on the counter attack. I think it was a question of willingness to make sacrifices, Livorno's players seemed as if they were willing to die for the cause, unfortunately same thing can't be said for our players.

That said, the ref still was a disgrace.

Jeff

23-01-2005, 14:44

I think it was a question of willingness to make sacrifices, Livorno's players seemed as if they were willing to die for the cause, unfortunately same thing can't be said for our players.

That said, the ref still was a disgrace.

Does it mean all the other teams that are playing against Juve are not 'willing to die for the cause'? *wonder*

And of course. I reall still don't understand why Nesta is sent off for dissent. It's an absolute wonder to me.

Crappy indeed.

Reza

23-01-2005, 15:15

I guess if I had to miss a game (TV channel couldn't get the game because of technical issues) this was the one.

Please do not let your frustrations about the team or ref make you insult others, we'll be back next game and Carlo and the players will be motivated.

In a couple of weeks til the end of the season the schedule is gonna be a very tough and full one. FORZA MILAN

Laudrup

23-01-2005, 15:38

Does it mean all the other teams that are playing against Juve are not 'willing to die for the cause'? *wonder*

:confused:

It means that Milan could've done better today.

Gipson

23-01-2005, 15:59

Worst game of the season, Livorno deserved to win by even bigger margin, Thank You Dida. First half-not bad. Second half-absolutely pathetic!!! If only Kaka scored...
We missed Pirlo.
About ref :yuck: Milan should have been awarded a penaty but Livorno should have had a penaty too, and red card for Nesta??? What is wrong with referees in Italy???
Juve won and it will be very hard to catch them, even without Nedved.
OK We lost but We are still in Scudetto race so...FORZA MILAN!!!
:firedev:

Grande-Milan-DK

23-01-2005, 17:39

Ambrosini did play OK in this position. He is not Pirlo, and the one thing he can do is tackle and work for the team, which he did. If Ancelotti wanted a creative midfielder he should have opted for Rui.

We played well until they scored - had we taken the lead it of course would been a total different match. Ater the goal Milan seemed suddenly total frustrated even there was much time left. What simply was the worst to look at was the stupid freekicks Milan gave away. I think Stam did make 5 or 6 freekicks without any really reason - this is really harsh to look at !

In the match there could easily where given 4 penalty kicks .. especially as Amelia nearly "killed" Sheva with this crazy tackle... but Farina ?.

The one who played absolutly best was Dhorasoo - he is in the last month been the most important player for Milan - and also today. Everytime Milan was creating something he was the brain behind. As for Crespo I think he have had his chance and now Tomasson must have a chance from start as we don`t have much other to field in attack until Pippo is back.

We are 5 points behind Juve and for some weeks we where 4 points behind, and people keept saying it is not much. 5 or 4 points doesn´t really matter .. it is still two games that Juve have to miss, but of course Milan can not afford to lose any more points in the comming weeks - or at least if Juve keep winning.

martin

23-01-2005, 18:12

awful refereeing!! this year we seem to be doin the opposite of last year. last year we had lil problems with small teams n no problems with big teams. this year we have tied n lost to a couple of small teams n we tied the games with juve, inter, n roma. We r lucky to still be in the hunt n im positive in the end we will succeed like alwais . imo todai we didn win becuz the ref n our mid was too defensive with ambro n gattuso. i wud have prefered rui to ambro. on a positive note dida was awesome, kutuzov n borrielo scored todai. do we still own them?

Haroon

23-01-2005, 19:19

Hmmmm .... this away game thing is getting a tad bit repetitive now. A loss can take place for any team anywhere but our loss came on the back of a similar pattern. We didn't score. A 2-1 defeat is rarer than a 1-0 for us. Ancelotti has some work to do to sort out this miserly scoring record in the away games. If we don't sort it out then it will harm us in every competition and make life extremely difficult for us.

Luckily for us, things are still within reach. We are down to Juve by 5 points and play Utd. in the knock-out of the UCL. As this is the final half of the season there will be a limit to where I can continue to say that things are still within reach. Time is on our side for now but after 40 days it won't be hence it would be nice to start fixing these small problems before it is too late.

We have time to solve this away game lack of scoring problem before the United game which arrives in a month. Our big players are the ones who have to rise in the away games. A more focused approach in the final third is required to get the goals.

I am disappointed with today's result. Juve gave us chances to cut into their lead and maintain that small difference but we backfire and not keep the pace.

Jeff

23-01-2005, 20:22

Christopher

23-01-2005, 21:33

the question is (I am fairly new to the following Series A) is the five point lead Juve currently holds too much . . . or will they slip up at some point too? As I understand it there are 3 months left? This team needs to be better on the road in terms of scoring

Warro Bantan

23-01-2005, 21:42

philly chris, Juve doesnt usually slip up in the Serie A, in fact, I am amazed that the bookies in Italy havent decided to stop taking bets on Juve winning the scudetto like their British counterparts have done with Chelsea.

While the Livorno's and the Brescia's of the serie A will complain that Juve and Milan both get their unfair share of ref decisions, most Rosseneri will claim that Juve gets the bulk load of ref calls.(dont even ask an Inter fan, as they hate the stranglehold Juve seem to have on refs and their decisions even more than we do)

Combine the unfair advantage provided Juve by the refs, their genius of a coach, and the depth of their squad (the injury to Nedved notwithstanding) and you get a package that hardly loses, and worse, hardly loses key games.

The injury to Nedved I think will only result in a renaissance for Del Piero, who I am quite sure will leap at any opportunity to integrate himself back into a starting role for his club.

So there you have it, from one of the most pessimistic (I prefer pragmatic) fans around....the rationale a la Bantan, for why I think Juve will run away with the title this trip, failing some act of God.

BaggioForever

23-01-2005, 21:48

still have faith in milan~ go go go~

Jeff

24-01-2005, 00:24

Arrrr.. but you never know... I thought we won 7/7 one year and won the schudetto? :)

sergiu

24-01-2005, 02:04

When I wrote smooth pitch is essential to Milan (25% better play), I was laughed at. Now we discover rain is against Milan scoring... Milan's normal fashion is many passes at ground level. Yesterday, almost everything got ruined in front of Livorno's penalty area. When we decided to shoot from the distance is was too late. Also, I thought Stam would come for headers at our corners; I didn't see much of that. The trouble was that I didn't see much of Stam in defence either...
Maybe everything would have ended better had Milan scored in the first 10' or at Kaka's occasion, just maybe. We must admit that, further, the Livorno men were more determined, they payed simpler, with fewer passes and it seems to me that, all in all, they ran more.
The refferee- contradictory. Crespo was pulled in the first half, but he could have also awarded Livorno a penalty, when Dida made that contact, away from the ball in the penalty area. Nesta? He must have cursed the ref after fouling, otherwise I don't see why he was sent off!?!. In the second half, it seemed to me that Crespo also pushed his man when scoring.

All in all, let's not blame the defeat on the ref. He had his share, the rain also, but the truth is that we were mediocre. Remember how few real goal opportunities we had!! AND WE MISSED PIRLO!
From yesterday on juve has become difficult to reach, BUT WE ARE MILAN!!

FORZA MILAN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Bayman

24-01-2005, 03:51

The perfect team should play
1 goalkeeper
4 defenders
2 defensive/central mids
3 offensive creative players who score regularly
1 pure goalscorer

Very much like Chelsea, the actual system 442/451/4231 you put it is irrelevant.
Chelsea have 2-3-1
Thiago Makelele
Robben Lampard Duff
Drogba

Milan 94 final was similar though played 4-4-2 on paper
Albertini Desailly
Savicevic Boban Donadoni
Massaro

Same goes for the best Real Madrid team of the past
Makelele Helguera
Figo Zidane Raul
R9/Morientes

And for table toppers Juventus (though played as 4-4-2 on paper, but Zlatan is no way a pure striker)
Emerson Blasi
Camoranesi Ibrahimovic Nedved
Trezeguet

That way you pose a constant threat, totally control the midfield and are very unpredictable.
And imo we lack the middle part as Kaka is our only player fitting into that category or central mids with a much bigger goal threat.
Too many central/defensive mids who lack goal threat and against defensive teams the 2 strikers are useless as they are completely cut off of the rest of the team.

PirloDaBest

24-01-2005, 04:14

Inferno

24-01-2005, 04:27

Milan did not played well yesterday, that is a fact.

but on the refs...

After Zola and president of Cagliari, also Carlo Ancelotti and Paolo Berlusconi(vp & brother of..) are claiming that the referees in Italy are not straight, or in other word "fixed". Milan is finally not sitting in quiet and comes out against the referees(most of them) that they are simply "working" for JuveBLAT! P.Berlu even greatly described it in a cynical way when he said that Juve will need a significant reinforcement at summer, since a great number of the refs will retire at the end of the current season...

There is NO DOUBT that f*cking Juve are winning scudettos thanks to referees. I said it long way back... referees in italia are a DISGRACE/CORRUPTS
:frustrat:
:d55:
:fero:

Kui

24-01-2005, 04:36

Well as unfortunate as the results were and at how bad the officiating was, I still think the games that Milan play have a sense of integrity to it. Listen... we played against a team who is coached by a Milan great. Roby Donadoni did not compromise his integrity or ours by throwing the game away so that we could be still two points behind Juve.
Now I dont really know if Juve gets the so called "edge" on refereeing calls to their favor. I tend to not believe in conspiracy theories. It's not good for the body and spirit to rationalize in that kind of way.
But! I do know that when MILAN play our wins draws and defeats are "clean" regardless of the bad calls from the officials. That bad refereeing is a total different issue. When we play bad we lose.
This result as bad as it was today should kinda also bring us comfort in knowing that we didnt get or need special favors from the refs or ex-players turned coach to help us win any titles.
Congrats to coach Roberto. Savor the moment while it's yours. Hopefully next year Livorno will still be in Serie A so we can vindicate the errors done.

FORZA MILAN!

Bayman

24-01-2005, 04:45

Listen Bayman, I dont really understand what you are going on about to be honest and I mean that in the nicest possible way. Teams have won many trophies NOT using that set-up you mentioned so that has nothing to do with it. The 4-3-1-2 is a perfect formation. Pirlo is one of the most gifted players in the world that is a fact whether you like it or not. If you dont agree with me and think I am wrong go and have a chat with Johan Cruyff! Though Pirlo's role does require the flair that he has and I do think Rui Costa may have given that but Ambrosini was there to protect the defence as he is a little more defensive.

One thing I will admit though is that the league is going to Juve this season.

ManUtd 99 is maybe the only team playing a different setup that won CL in the last few years.

Problem is that we are always linked to player we don't need (Gilardino) or are overrated ( Bonera) while our biggest rivals are constantly linked to players we would need (Cassano, Mascherano, Barzagli, Pablo Ibanez).

PirloDaBest

24-01-2005, 05:18

Listen man Gilardino is amazing! He is playing for Parma who are not very good this season but he is scoring goals. Tell me how this happens?
Yes, I agree we need a creative forward. But we also need a good goalscorer as Inzaghi does not have many years left and Tomasson is not my idea of a Milan player. Also Bonera is better than Ibanez and Barzagli. Furthermore, I do not want Cassano at Milan. He is too much of a baby for our team.

One thing I must say is that I am glad to have found this site where I can liase with fellow Milan fans as today I am sat at work and in a very sad state because of the results yesterday. We really need to go on a run now. I mean 4-5 wins in a row and hope Juve can drop some points. They are playing Atalanta next weekend and I am hoping Atalanta will be inspired by what they did to them in the Coppa Italia, though I doubt it!

Giovanni

24-01-2005, 06:05

If Kakà plays badly we're in troubles, if you add Pirlo's absence that's why we didn't create any decent ball in the second half.

I think we're paying the unsolved problem of finding a real replacement for Pirlo on the market. We don't have any alternative and every try has failed (Rui, Seddorf, Brocchi, Ambro) in that position.

If we add they blocked us on the flanks, esp Cafu that's why we were stopped.

Our playmaking sources are: Pirlo's passes, Kakà inventions and Cafu crosses. If you stop us here, the job is half done

Ps. I think Bayman has a point saying we lack creativite playmaker. We have creative players, but lack a creative playmaker as a possible subs for Pirlo.

Hitman

24-01-2005, 06:16

Giovanni

24-01-2005, 06:22

I don't think there is a reason to make a drama out of this. Livorno played better than us yesterday, period. That is football. It happens sometimes. We have totally played 29 official matches this season, and lost 2 - and that is not that poor is it ?...

But I don't think this will be out year in the Serie A. Juve has taken the lead from the beginning and every week we are trying to catch them. 5 points is not impossible, but very diffcult...

Regarding performances yesterday, I think you cannot blame one single player (read Ambrosini). We played bad as a team. Maldini were very poor technically, Kaka and Sheva were not to be seen (although had Kaka scored on his 110% chance, the game could have been another).. We win as a team and lose as team - and that was also the case yesterday.
Milan is not a society where you can say: OK, we'll try next time.
No reason for a drama, but the situation of multiple missed chance to bite Juve have all been missed. There's a problem with long high balls and crosses, and dead balls, it's clear, and it can be our weak point in Champions League as well. There's a Pirlo sub problem, and it's clear, because our creativity starts from behind and we need to do something.

It's not the case to make a drama but it's the case to point out some problems and do something concrete to solve them-

Bayman

24-01-2005, 06:25

The first thing we should do is going back to single striker solution. We played best in early 02/03 and when Pippo ws injured in second half last season.

What worries me most is that Juve is constantly linked with mascherano. A Amscherano - Emerson defensive mid combo would guarantee them further Scudetti.

PirloDaBest

24-01-2005, 06:26

Yep, I agree but we need to win the trophies to prove this. We need to remain at least 2-3 points behind Juve at the most between now and the match against them at the San Siro. If we can arrive at that date with that match meaning something then we have a good chance. If that does not happen then I dont know what the outcome will be...

As Hitman said, we cannot blame ONE player. Though from what I am reading Ambrosini was terrible (FORTUNATELY, I missed the match!!!). I knew already that there is no good replacement for Pirlo. This is why I believe when he is not available we either need to use 4-4-2 or go to a 4-3-2-1 (replace on of the forwards with Rui Costa).

Has anyone heard how long Nedved is going to be out for?

Bayman

24-01-2005, 06:34

Problem with Rui is that he looks quite a finfished player.
Big signing in the summer should be a creative player, able to hold the ball and being dynamic.

4 defender backline
2 central mids (Gattuso, Seedorf)
3 creative players (Kaka, Pirlo, someone else)
1 striker (sheva, Pippo sub)
like the '94 final team....
Dida
Cafu Nesta Maldini Jankulovski
gattuso Seedorf
(Desailly)(Albertini)
Kaka Pirlo Aimar/Vicente
(Savicevic)(Boban)(Donadoni)
Shevchenko
(Massaro)

Giovanni

24-01-2005, 06:48

I have confidence we'll get back to Juve again but cannot waste further chances

PirloDaBest

24-01-2005, 07:03

Seedorf should be classified as one of the creative midfielders. He is not a central/defensive midfielder like Gattuso.

At the end of the day 4-3-1-2 is the formation for Milan when everyone is fit and having a good team is not all about packing it with superstars!!! We need to have alternatives that is all. We will see how many alternatives Juve have if Nedved is out for a bit.

Giovanni

24-01-2005, 07:41

Yes, but he isn't a deep playmaker.

We have creative players upfront such as Rui and Clarence but nobody can play in Pirlo's role.

PirloDaBest

24-01-2005, 07:50

This is why when he is not available we should change to a 4-4-2 or a 4-3-2-1 as in these formation the deep-lying playmaker is not the integral part of them team.

Haroon

24-01-2005, 09:04

I thought these two games that we didn't score have one similarity.. and is that it is rainy. Do you think it may make things harder for Milan? Just a thought.

But it's only 2 games Haroon, that wedidn't score away . Right?

We scored a thumping 0-6 win in the 2002-3 Serie A season away from home in the Serie A. We trashed Depor 0-4, won after 40 years in Munich with a 1-2 win, defeated Dortmund 0-1 and didn't lose to a big gun except that 2-1 win for Juve in Turin due to the first 20 horrible mins.

We are not convincing away from home this season. It is a repetitive pattern I am afraid to say. In Barcelona we looked clueless and gutless.

If we are to win competitions then the harsh reality is that great sides don't make away games look different. We are a jeckyll and hyde team who are superb and indestructible at home and struggle away from home.

It reminds me of the sucky United side of old who just couldn't get results away from home i.e. wins. They always struggled against big name opposition away from home except Juve who are their *****.

Our possession counts for NADA if we can't score away from home. We are great at defending away from home but it can f*ck things up when we concede.

I am not going to hide behind excuses because I can see the storm coming IF THINGS ARE NOT FIXED. We are risking winning "nothing" if we don't solve this away game problem. Real is in the same boat but they are a mess while we aren't. That is the fine line that separates us.

A world class squad doesn't rely on a Pirlo's presence or good weather to win games. It makes things happen for itself. We have the time but it is running out and there is yet to be a single convincing away performance.

We better not turn up in SUNNY MANCHESTER then if we can't play in the rain.

Haroon

24-01-2005, 09:06

Bayman has valid points. He is right. We should always play 4-3-2-1 away from home whereas we can play 4-1-2-1-2 at home. Away games is the problem not the home games. Goals needed in away games.

PirloDaBest

24-01-2005, 09:29

Ok, ok, ok I bring some interesting news :firedev:

Nedved is out for 2-3 weeks. He will miss the following games for Juve: Atalanta (a), Sampdoria (h), Palermo (a) and Udinese (h). Also there is a possibility that he may not be ready for the Messina (a) tie. He will be ready for the CL though.
Also Juve will play there first match in Serie A this season against Atalanta without Emerson in the team. Problems in midfield as Blasi is banned and Nedved out. Also Tacchinardi is not fit.

Ok, so does everyone agree that Milan must look to make up the difference with Juve over the next 4-5 matches? This is the chance to do it man.

We need to remain focused, forget about Livorno and move on.

Haroon

24-01-2005, 09:39

The next 40 days ... we can really make waves. We should get on with the job now and not look back.

Hitman

24-01-2005, 09:58

I agree that Milan is not a society club, and it seems there is a problem when we play away - or is there?. I think Carlo will be able to sort it out with the players... To say we do not have any players to replace Pirlo is wrong. Ambrosini is NOT the player to replace, he and Gattuso cannot play in the same starting lineup. Seedorf is a good replacement I think. We have not scored in 3 away matches, correct. However remember the Juve match? we had the chances and should have won.. Palermo.. tough away match, but we had the chances... Kaka centimeter from the win. The game yesterday is, as I see it, just an off-day, on a difficult picth against a team which wanted the win more than we did.

PirloDaBest

24-01-2005, 10:13

Haroon

24-01-2005, 10:54

Guys, do any of you know of any Milan fans in here that live in Milan?
I am trying to get tickets for the match between Milan and Manchester United at Old Trafford but need to get the tickets from Milan.

You won't be able to get them. Try the agencies who are selling it for an astronomical figure of £170-£200! :eekani:

You'll be able to get it from touts outside Old Trafford. The FA Cup final tickets sold for £100 on the black market. This one should be available for £50 at most. You'll have to try your luck in Manchester and won't be the only one. Getting a ticket in Milan's section will be hard to get. Keep that in mind.

Rapierist

24-01-2005, 10:54

Stop cribbing, the lot of you.
Its only January and Juve are just five points clear. They still have to play us at home. If we win that (which we definitely can), and Juve draw with another team, that is five points dropped right there.

Be patient. The season isn't over yet.

PirloDaBest

24-01-2005, 11:21

Haroon, that is for the game at San Siro. Not at Old Trafford. The tickets only go on sale in Italy for AWAY CL ties 7-10 days before the match. I just cant be bothered to go all the way to Milan myself and I feel bad asking my family in Bergamo as it is still quite a drive. I have been talking to Milan box office everyday this week and I even called Old Trafford who told me the same thing. It looks like I will have to go there to buy the tickets anyway. The flight to Milan is only £70 so I can do that. There will be tickets for sure as there always are in the AWAY games.

Franco6

24-01-2005, 11:59

I'm confident because our phisical preparation is better than that of Juve i.e. I expect Juve to slow down in March because we have a larger and better squad, plus that Capello always plays the same 11 which can be an advantage for us in the long run.

Let's hope that we can be more lucky in our bad days. For example Juve deseved a loss against us and Cagliari but managed 2 points that stole vs Bologna to get 3 points. We have to finalise more our chances like the Kaka chance vs Livorno, the chances vs Juve, Roma etc.

WE ARE BETTER THAN THE GOBBI

RIO

24-01-2005, 12:28

This may have been because of the early hour (@6.00 AM) I was watching the match, but I just never felt Milan played all that well. They just seemed a tad bit slow to react, not into the game. The Livornese, on the other hand, were giving their all, and sometimes that will compensate for lesser talent. You've got to hand that to them. Sure the referree was dicey (note that the match was played in Livorno, so they would usually get the 50/50 calls anyway...he was giving them everything and more though), but in the end the game plan was flawed and the execution poor. When that happens, even a little provinical Toscano side can beat you. That happened. Kaka played poorly, was Rui Costa even there? Still, we could have conceivably won, had the ball bounced our way. These things happen. Nobody likes it when they do, but they do. It had better stop happening away from home, or we won't catch Juve though. They never ever let down in domestic competition (and the rare times they do, they seem to get a little push from the man in black), so they shopuld not be allowed to forge ahead so cheaply.

Giovanni

24-01-2005, 12:34

Pippo is coming back..keep the faith

hitmannq8

24-01-2005, 12:48

Has anyone noticed that almost every time we close the gap between us and Juve, the week after we blow it? It has happened at least 3 times, we are not taking our chances quite well. It is true, it is only a game at Livorno, but what kept me thinking is that, we didn't manage to beat Livorno in both our ties :/. Another negative thing, is that I really can't see the Cafu-Nesta-Stam-Maldini defense line do what most people expected. They still haven't kept a clean sheet and they played 2 games (Udinese, Livorno). I didn't see in the highlights any positive notes from the defense.

We have quite a tight schedule coming up before the Man U game, I hope I see some squad rotation, and I hope we find our MAXIMUM form. "Spring" that every1 at Milan talked about since summer, is almost here. They kept saying we will find our form on spring. So far, i've seen an inconsistent Milan side. Hope the lads get their heads together and fix their prob.

Good news is that Pippo scored 2 in practice! :)

almilan

24-01-2005, 14:19

5 points is not much we have only played 20 games out of 38, if we win our head to head with them in May and they draw one game thats 5 points for you. they have palemero away soon without nedved, wouldnt rule out a palemero win.

P.S. Pirlo is back for the next game!

Jeff

24-01-2005, 15:28

ac_milan_foreva

24-01-2005, 16:19

we cant blame the referee. we brought this upon ourselfs. we played bad and we cant deny that. i dont think ancelotti is to blame so much it was just a bad game we have to put behind us. lets hope we can play like we did last game.

this is a record to consider

last 3 away games- juve-milan 0-0 palermo- milan 0-0 livorno- milan 1-0

I think we gonna do well on our next home game but we gotta work on scoring away from home

Edmando

24-01-2005, 16:26

Jeff, what's up with your anger and frustration man? It's good that you stick up for Pirlo 'cause of Bayman's constant bashing at him. Once a while, just let it go man... sometimes you need arguments to make your life more interesting -D

anyway... I haven't watched the game and what can I say? THe only thing as a milan supporter is to keep faith and NOT be patient... well i should say the team shouldn't be patient to wait for Juve's downfall. All the players should fire up all the cylinders and win it all the way until the end. Play like there is no tomorrow. I also think it's time to rest Crespo and Kaka for the next game.

About Cafu-Nesta-Stam-Maldini lineup... I don't know, I think they did a'ight. However, I do worry aobut they go head-to-head against young fast forwards, such as Martins. But hey, what do i know?

Peace yo...

Bayman

24-01-2005, 16:47

I'm glad that Pirlo is finally considered as 1 of the solid starting XI in your formation.
But you haven't still admitted for 2 years you have been accusing him.

Nevermind. Who cares. After all, people will ask me to shut up and be respectful to others.

_____________________________________________________________

I don't think going back to 1 striker will do us any good. Probably in some good matches, but not THE solution. Remember the game when we were trailing 2 goals behind after 1st half against Inter last season? There were numerous examples when MIlan played with 1 striker and did poorly. It's as much as Milan playing poorly with 2 strikers. I just don't think the problem, if there is one, lays over there.

1.Played as an attacking mid Pirlo is OK especially in Serie A, but against English/Spanish world clas midfields (barca, Depor) we need physical presence + class (which rules out Ambrosini, who imo is very average) in centre mid. And if he plays we need more pace and dynamics play from other players (one of Vicente, Aimar). If Pirlo becomes a constant goal threat (10+ goals all season excluding penalties) played further upfront it is ok. But we need more scoring midfielders.
2. One game doesn't change the fact that we played most of our best games (Bayern, Depor in 02/03) with a single true striker. Against roma 03/04 Sheva was our only real target man too.

Knowing Galliani's unwillingness to spend on dynamic creative offensive players, I'd be even happy if we pick up Figo on the cheap next summer. Solari is the better option, though.

ACMILAN1983

24-01-2005, 17:48

What the he!! is up at this forum!!!!!

We lost 2 matches this year, are ONLY 5 points behind Juve and are yet to face them knowing we a FAR superior!

This on top of the fact the halfway point of a VERY LONG season has only just passed!!!!!!!!!!!!

YET, people are saying this league is already gone!

Haroon, you know I respect you as a poster! BUT, your talk about away form is quite ridiculous! This season, our away form is equalling our home. Were not scoring as much, but we get the job done with solidarity. As for the past three matches, LOOK at who we faced! Juve, Palermo and Livorno. Juve are the most solid team in Serie A with Palermo 3rd (or at least they were when we faced them). Livorno on the other hand are on an incredible resurgence under Donadoni!!! You mention Barca match too, a match that we didn't have to win, but they did! At the time we were far from our best whilst they were at their peak! IS ANYONE HERE GOING TO DOUBT WE HAVE IMPROVED SINCE THEN!!!???

More generally, during this period we've also faced Palermo again (COPPA), LECCE and UDINESE!!! These are three of the most impressive sides in Serie A this year and we beat each of them convincingly!!!

All the talk about inconsistency is insane too! We've just gone through probably the hardest 2 months of our season so far and were still close to Juve, who are doing no better than us bar the fact they have an easier schedule!!!

The Livorno match was bad!!! BUT, we know we are capable of more. The players know this, Ancelotti knows this and the whole of MILAN knows this! The season is far from over and will only hot up once CL starts up again, thats when the best will show their WORTH!!! Ancelotti did make mistakes against Livorno and imo gave them more respect than he should have. We should have been far more aggressively set up, but we weren't and deserved to lose! However, this match won't end our season

Bayman, stop with the cr@p already! We don't need any new players, we have the best squad in Europe if not the world. Pirlo showed his importance as did others. You talk about Pirlo being physically ok for Serie A but not La Liga or Premiership!!?? Serie A is one of the most physical games around, how on earth did you come up with that statement!!!??????????

Tactically, we can't always rely on 4-3-2-1. We need to adjust our system and play accordingly rather than try and ALWAYS impose ourselves! Everytime we lose, we try to play our game against sides who are completely prepared for it and we never change our style and try to force things! I'm hoping Ancelotti understands that as well as imposing ourselves in matches, we sometimes need to adapt our system to counter the opponents!

THIS SEASON IS FAR FROM OVER!! JUVE HAVE NOTHING AT THIS POINT!!!

I'M SICK OF JUVE FANS ACTING SMUG, AT THE END WE'LL SHOW OUR SUPERIORITY!!!!!!! :mad:

WE ARE FROM FROM OVER!!

BRING IT ON!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

:firedev: :firedev: FORZA MILAN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :firedev: :firedev:

Jeff

24-01-2005, 18:07

Thanks ACMILAN 1983, I don't want to get into this argument with Bayman anymore because it's just so pointless.

He is just SO quick in jumping to buying a new player that whenever our team lost, he comes. It's just plain weird. I wonder where he is when the team won.

And the team won most of the time. We have a fantastic year be4 when we have 1 striker, but he doesnt want to see that our team, so far, has won MOST OF THE TIME.

Bayman

24-01-2005, 18:25

Well I say the same things even if we win...actually all the time.
Thing is I somehow smell big trouble against Manchester United. If we beat them convincingly over 2 legs everything is fine, but I somehow doubt that.
All the game until then to me are mostly preparation and we shouldn't get more than 5 behind Juve. More important is to convince...and I'm not talking about crushing offensive playing mediocrity (Fiorentina) 6-0, but cracking down tight defenses regularly.

Jeff

24-01-2005, 18:43

No nono bayman
what I mean is, yes I know that you are saying the same things all the time, even if we win
but why don't you say it when we ACTUALLY win? Did you make a post in a post or things like that.... or you shall open up a threada saying "this is what I think".

I think it speaks bad of you if you just pound in when the team loses. Boy it's not convincing.

And btw, you chould have smelled trouble against Liverno too.

And we didn't.

I can only smell the fish I"m cooking has been burnt.

Haroon

24-01-2005, 20:06

Haroon, you know I respect you as a poster! BUT, your talk about away form is quite ridiculous! This season, our away form is equalling our home. Were not scoring as much, but we get the job done with solidarity. As for the past three matches, LOOK at who we faced! Juve, Palermo and Livorno. Juve are the most solid team in Serie A with Palermo 3rd (or at least they were when we faced them). Livorno on the other hand are on an incredible resurgence under Donadoni!!! You mention Barca match too, a match that we didn't have to win, but they did! At the time we were far from our best whilst they were at their peak! IS ANYONE HERE GOING TO DOUBT WE HAVE IMPROVED SINCE THEN!!!???

Our defence has been very good in the away games and that has bailed us out on numerous occasions. However our scoring record is poor in the away games and the figures are there to prove it. Possession and creating chances doesn't win you matches. Scoring goals does. I am not even worried about the home games as yet. It is the away games that worry me.

United have been like this over the years in the UCL. So strong at home and yet wobbly away from home. Guess what happened since '99.

2000 - Real knocked them out in OT
2001 - Bayern beat them 0-1 in OT and went on to win the 2nd leg
2002 - Bayer knocked them out in OT
2003 - Real knocked them out in OT
2004 - Porto knocked them out in OT

And all these seasons Utd. was a force at home. One bad game at home can occur any time. Hence we shouldn't over-rely on our home form to bail us out every time coz you never know when Murphy's Law kicks into motion. It is game over. We haven't been able to put in the goals in the away games. Before January it was said that the team is conserving its energy and will get into full flow after the Winter Break when the real season starts. January is ending and Juve is leading by 5 pts. Now it is ok and within reach but in a month we are playing our most crucial away game to United. If we can't score goals there then we are facing the barrel in the San Siro. It will be rainy, it will be slippery and it will be away.

We must revert to the 4-3-2-1 for away games because we are in control with that formation.

I'm not worried and I'm not angry with the team but I am concerned with our away form. Under Carlo's reign this is the first season that we show signs of struggle away from home except for that Depor game last season. We have been pretty good away from home under Carlo's reign but this season it is just not there as yet.

ACMILAN1983

24-01-2005, 20:31

Our defence has been very good in the away games and that has bailed us out on numerous occasions. However our scoring record is poor in the away games and the figures are there to prove it. Possession and creating chances doesn't win you matches. Scoring goals does. I am not even worried about the home games as yet. It is the away games that worry me.

United have been like this over the years in the UCL. So strong at home and yet wobbly away from home. Guess what happened since '99.

2000 - Real knocked them out in OT
2001 - Bayern beat them 0-1 in OT and went on to win the 2nd leg
2002 - Bayer knocked them out in OT
2003 - Real knocked them out in OT
2004 - Porto knocked them out in OT

And all these seasons Utd. was a force at home. One bad game at home can occur any time. Hence we shouldn't over-rely on our home form to bail us out every time coz you never know when Murphy's Law kicks into motion. It is game over. We haven't been able to put in the goals in the away games. Before January it was said that the team is conserving its energy and will get into full flow after the Winter Break when the real season starts. January is ending and Juve is leading by 5 pts. Now it is ok and within reach but in a month we are playing our most crucial away game to United. If we can't score goals there then we are facing the barrel in the San Siro. It will be rainy, it will be slippery and it will be away.

We must revert to the 4-3-2-1 for away games because we are in control with that formation.

I'm not worried and I'm not angry with the team but I am concerned with our away form. Under Carlo's reign this is the first season that we show signs of struggle away from home except for that Depor game last season. We have been pretty good away from home under Carlo's reign but this season it is just not there as yet.

I don't buy it I'm afraid. There has been no proof our away form has been poor other than perhaps we haven't got a great number of goals away. This area can be improved, but its far from a big problem as is being suggested.

As far as I remember, many people at the start of the season (or much of the first half) were saying our form away was better than at home.

Again, I want to emphasise, the only dip in away form has been in the last three matches, all of which were possibly the hardest matches we've had this season in Serie A.

Also please don't compare us to Man U, as they are a far cry from the current Milan now, in 2004, 2003, 2002, '01, '00 and imo '99.

I can understand your concern about our away form, but I need far more convincing to believe something is wrong.

hitmannq8

25-01-2005, 02:04

Ya'all know why every1 complains when we lose?

It's because we expect so high from this Milan side, to win everything so convincingly. We expect this Milan side to be soooo perfect, that after every bad game, every1 says we need to sell him, we need to buy him, we have to change formation, we have to drop him etc etc.. ya'all should calm down a bit..

its true i was extremely mad when i saw the score, but its alright, i still have no doubts in our milan side conquering Champions League again.. the only tiny thing that annoys me is that, Milan have had problems in scoring goals (for a few games) even while having Crespo-Sheva-Kaka..I am sure Carlotti will do something about it, and we got a tight schedule coming up..ya'all should check out how we play in the next month, you will see an excellent if not perfect Milan side, lets just hope no one gets injured..i hope carlo rotates the squad well so players dont hurt them selves..

I want to see a 3 goal difference vs Man Utd at least, we certainly are capable of it! I just hope we find our top form real soon.. and im confident we will..

Bayman, I can't believe you dislike Pirlo.. Pirlo's like the Anchor of the squad, he is so important, especially in the big games.. he is the one who always cuts their counter attacks, he is the one who sends those inch-perfect 30+ metres passes, he's the one who holds the ball when necessary.. only bad thing i think about Pirlo is his free-kicks, I think Sheva's are way better.. his speed isn't that bad either..

Can't wait for Pippo to score his super-hatrick, and possibly Carrol scoring a hat-trick for us as well! :P

Sheva7_Evo

25-01-2005, 04:10

Kui

25-01-2005, 04:23

Well of any game to lose, I'm glad we lost this one. It kind of brings the team back down to earth from the winning "high" that can happen. Remember last year when everything was going so well in the League and then from 4-1 up on the first leg of the CL we collapsed at Deportivo. Better yet Milan at latter half of 02/03 we were losing to Empoli and Piacenza and was able to regain our focus to beat Inter and Juve to lift the Copa Campioni. So losing here and there isnt so bad. So maybe in Italy the talk may be that Juve gets the Scudetto handed to them on a silver platter. But that crap doesnt help them much when it comes to Europe. Maybe that's why they dont have much to show for it after winning so many domestic titles. If my math is correct Milan has a better victory ratio of the Champion's League/Domestic title wins than even Real Madrid. 17 Seria A/6 Champion's league titels. That's almost one in three.

FORZAA MILAN!

Haroon

25-01-2005, 06:59

I don't buy it I'm afraid. There has been no proof our away form has been poor other than perhaps we haven't got a great number of goals away. This area can be improved, but its far from a big problem as is being suggested.

As far as I remember, many people at the start of the season (or much of the first half) were saying our form away was better than at home.

Again, I want to emphasise, the only dip in away form has been in the last three matches, all of which were possibly the hardest matches we've had this season in Serie A.

Also please don't compare us to Man U, as they are a far cry from the current Milan now, in 2004, 2003, 2002, '01, '00 and imo '99.

I can understand your concern about our away form, but I need far more convincing to believe something is wrong.

In short I will say that this away form will not win us the UCL. If we can't deal with Palermo and Livorno then Chelsea, Barcelona, Utd. is a totally different cup of tea.

ACMILAN1983

25-01-2005, 10:52

In short I will say that this away form will not win us the UCL. If we can't deal with Palermo and Livorno then Chelsea, Barcelona, Utd. is a totally different cup of tea.

how do you come to this decision?

look at the sides that have won CL in recent years, none have been truly spectacular when in the knockout stages, but all are tactically good and very, VERY solid (like us in 2003 and Porto last year).

We have this element in spades this season, where as last season, we began losing such solidarity during the second half of the season.

Lets look at Chelsea, their success this season isn't from playing spectacular attacking football, its from the base of the side, where players like Terry and Carvalho, as well as Makalele and Parker (who Maurinho stated being of major importance) are making sacrifices to stop the opposition.

Even in other cups, its that element that plays argubly the biggest part. Valencia won the UEFA cup with Ayala and co. providing a solid backline to the side.

How about International cups? Lets look at the WC...Brazil in 2002 won, at the start of the tournament they were all out attack, but no defence. They get to the knockout stages to England and guess what, they play a far more solid game where keeping possession became a must. If they had played a game similar to the group stages, England would have slaughtered them. Brazil stayed solid and guess what, they defeated some tough opposition for the cup.

How about Euro 2000 and France '98? France(the greatest French side ever too) won both these cups with absoloutly top class defences. I'm sure many will remember that in '98 France didn't have a brilliant attack, but their solidarity at the back made it tough for the opposition to get an advantage. Also, Brazil in 98 didn't have solidarity and always ran the risk of being beaten badly, which happened against France (Don't use Ronaldo as an excuse either, I'm sure they would have lost even if fully fit).

Now onto Euro 2004. GREECE!! How did they win? we all know they didn't play spectacular football, so what elements did they have that others didn't? Well, it was again due to their solidarity at the back and good tactical organisation.

I can almost certainly guarantee that most cup winning sides in the history of football had these elements in their game, which played a massive part in their success. I'll admit that some teams go against this, but its a rare occurance.

All the great attacking sides over the years have more often than not failed in cups too. Brazil '98 was mentioned, Czech 2004 (they had a fair defence tbh) and a couple of the Dutch sides too failed. Lets not even mention Arsenal and Real.

Lets look at this Milan. Its a solid side which is tactically quite good. I say quite good as tactically I think it can improve a fair amount still. However, this Milan side has extra elements (dominant midfield and great attack) to be considered strong contenders for any competition.

Our away form has been solid and I for one am more glad to see a solid Milan than a spectacular Milan that is all attack.

Don't get me wrong, we need goals to win games and competitions, but to win cups solidarity is more important, to make sure you give the opposition no advantage. Also, this does not mean doing Trap Italy style where you score and just defend, this invites unnecessary pressure building up on the side and eventually the pressure becomes to much.

As for struggling against Livorno and Palermo, they got the better of us tactically (which I've mentioned about how we could improve above) and like I said, we try to force our game (rather than adapt) onto opposition even though they are dealing with it comfortably. Hopefully, Carlo will learn from mistakes made and will not make them again.

Henrik

25-01-2005, 20:06

Good debate going here, keep it up! :)

ACMILAN1983

25-01-2005, 20:45

Good debate going here, keep it up! :)

haha, you said that last time I was in a debate.

Admittedly, my original post was in anger, but I've calmed down now ;)

PirloDaBest

26-01-2005, 07:06

I think the Palermo games was a totally different kettle of fish altogether. Palermo have obtained draws against Milan, Roma, Juventus and Inter this season. Guidolin already admitted that with that game he was alwats going to be playing for a draw as if the team were allowed to go out a play with adventure Milan would have come away with a win. I think sometimes we need to play with a 4-3-2-1 depending on the opponent. This formation gives mroe control in the midfield as the numbers have increased. This is a good formation to play away ties against the likes of Livorno and Palermo who would have planned to shut up shop from the blow of the first whistle. But in the CL we must use our 4-3-1-2. Unless we had Ronaldinho or Totti in our team then we cannot be so dependent on playing 2 'Kaka type' players all the time.

Henrik

26-01-2005, 08:12

haha, you said that last time I was in a debate.

Admittedly, my original post was in anger, but I've calmed down now ;)
Sometimes it is easier to critisize that to praise. This thread started off on a bad note, but has now changed as is providing some valuable contributions. I think that that should be acknowledged (especially as some of us landed on previous remarks) :)

Haroon

26-01-2005, 13:44

how do you come to this decision?

look at the sides that have won CL in recent years, none have been truly spectacular when in the knockout stages, but all are tactically good and very, VERY solid (like us in 2003 and Porto last year).

Milan in 2003? Away wins to La Coruna, Dortmund, Bayern and not to forget the Serie A sisters. That team was incredible home or away. We won 0-6 away from home in the Serie A. ;)

Porto? Porto had the best away record in the competition. They lost only one away game in the whole competition. It was something on those lines. :)

We have this element in spades this season, where as last season, we began losing such solidarity during the second half of the season.

Lets look at Chelsea, their success this season isn't from playing spectacular attacking football, its from the base of the side, where players like Terry and Carvalho, as well as Makalele and Parker (who Maurinho stated being of major importance) are making sacrifices to stop the opposition.

Even in other cups, its that element that plays argubly the biggest part. Valencia won the UEFA cup with Ayala and co. providing a solid backline to the side.

Who's talking about entertaining footie? Gimme a dull 0-2 away win and I will keep quiet. It should be solid gameplay where we know what we are doing. It shouldn't be like the game in Barcelona where we play at the mercy of our opposition. All I want is for us to have control in the matches and then convert the chances. We have shown that we can control the away games.

However we are yet to show that we can convert that control into solid wins. We have a goal drought in the away matches. Accepting it or not doesn't matter. It's a fact.

How about International cups? Lets look at the WC...Brazil in 2002 won, at the start of the tournament they were all out attack, but no defence. They get to the knockout stages to England and guess what, they play a far more solid game where keeping possession became a must. If they had played a game similar to the group stages, England would have slaughtered them. Brazil stayed solid and guess what, they defeated some tough opposition for the cup.

How about Euro 2000 and France '98? France(the greatest French side ever too) won both these cups with absoloutly top class defences. I'm sure many will remember that in '98 France didn't have a brilliant attack, but their solidarity at the back made it tough for the opposition to get an advantage. Also, Brazil in 98 didn't have solidarity and always ran the risk of being beaten badly, which happened against France (Don't use Ronaldo as an excuse either, I'm sure they would have lost even if fully fit).

Now onto Euro 2004. GREECE!! How did they win? we all know they didn't play spectacular football, so what elements did they have that others didn't? Well, it was again due to their solidarity at the back and good tactical organisation.

I feel you drifted in the above paragraphs as in International competitions every match is on a neutral ground and this discussion began with the lack of goals in away matches.

I can almost certainly guarantee that most cup winning sides in the history of football had these elements in their game, which played a massive part in their success. I'll admit that some teams go against this, but its a rare occurance.

You're correct. Add to that the fact that all championship winning sides played well away from home and got the away wins.

All the great attacking sides over the years have more often than not failed in cups too. Brazil '98 was mentioned, Czech 2004 (they had a fair defence tbh) and a couple of the Dutch sides too failed. Lets not even mention Arsenal and Real.

Drifting again ... question is not of attacking gameplay. The problem is the goal drought in away games.

Lets look at this Milan. Its a solid side which is tactically quite good. I say quite good as tactically I think it can improve a fair amount still. However, this Milan side has extra elements (dominant midfield and great attack) to be
considered strong contenders for any competition.

We are strong contenders for the UCL. I'm not denying that. However if we don't improve our away form we can kiss this competition goodbye. There will be a game where we don't do well in the home game. It is at that time when the away form comes into play. If we don't have it ... we've had it.

Our away form has been solid and I for one am more glad to see a solid Milan than a spectacular Milan that is all attack.

I would say I am 60% satisfied with our away form this season. Milan is a gigantic club in world football and you don't win 6 European Cups just reliant on the home form. We've been past masters of the away game and Ancelotti's side has been superb in the away matches except this season so far. I hope that it plays like it used to.

Don't get me wrong, we need goals to win games and competitions, but to win cups solidarity is more important, to make sure you give the opposition no advantage. Also, this does not mean doing Trap Italy style where you score and just defend, this invites unnecessary pressure building up on the side and eventually the pressure becomes to much.

Solidarity didn't win us the game in Turin where we were toying around with Juventus. We owned them and made them look like a Serie B side. If we don't improve our focus and attention in the final third to make the most of our chances then we may have to pay a price for that. The UCL is an unforgiving competition where ONE MISTAKE is enough to eliminate a side. I think I have repeated that over 10 times on forum boards now and it is true to the core. ;)

As for struggling against Livorno and Palermo, they got the better of us tactically (which I've mentioned about how we could improve above) and like I said, we try to force our game (rather than adapt) onto opposition even though they are dealing with it comfortably. Hopefully, Carlo will learn from mistakes made and will not make them again.

The team isn't making mistakes IMO. We are just under-utilizing our own self by not converting the chances enough. The only thing Carlo needs to do is make the players realize to remain more focused in the away games and put in the goals.

Milan loses 1-0 seven times more than it loses 2-1, 3-2 etc. It is much more relaxing for me personally when we score be it to equalize or score the first because even if we lose after that, it is manageable and within control.

e.g. Barcelona in the Nou Camp. We had a terrible game and yet it took a piece of Ronnie magic for them to get the win at the death. Even then we topped the group due to that away goal at the time. We MUST score at least 1.

ACMILAN1983

26-01-2005, 16:37

Sometimes it is easier to critisize that to praise. This thread started off on a bad note, but has now changed as is providing some valuable contributions. I think that that should be acknowledged (especially as some of us landed on previous remarks) :)

fair point

Milan in 2003? Away wins to La Coruna, Dortmund, Bayern and not to forget the Serie A sisters. That team was incredible home or away. We won 0-6 away from home in the Serie A. ;)

Porto? Porto had the best away record in the competition. They lost only one away game in the whole competition. It was something on those lines. :)

I never doubted away form is important, but I'm arguing that solidarity is the most important factor to winning cups.

Like Milan 2003, when the side was clearly burnt out, without our defence we would have failed in CL.

Who's talking about entertaining footie? Gimme a dull 0-2 away win and I will keep quiet. It should be solid gameplay where we know what we are doing. It shouldn't be like the game in Barcelona where we play at the mercy of our opposition. All I want is for us to have control in the matches and then convert the chances. We have shown that we can control the away games.

However we are yet to show that we can convert that control into solid wins. We have a goal drought in the away matches. Accepting it or not doesn't matter. It's a fact.

clearly this is where we disagree. You believe we have a drought in away games. I agree to the point that we've struggled lately, but I do think we are going through a tough period and that as we keep going, we'll improve. If we can score more goals then there are no complaints, however, that means improving our game and that I believe we are doing consistently and therefore we just need to keep patient a little so the team can find their feet. We have the solidarity which is of massive importance. The lack of goals won't last forever imo. Eventually we will score enough to win games, whether it be 0-4s or 0-1s, its the same either way as long as we win.

As for Barca owning us, like I said before, we weren't in top form, they NEEDED the win whilst at their best and if I remember correctly, we had other massive matches coming up ;)

I feel you drifted in the above paragraphs as in International competitions every match is on a neutral ground and this discussion began with the lack of goals in away matches.

true, but I want to stress the importance of a solid side

You're correct. Add to that the fact that all championship winning sides played well away from home and got the away wins.

yes, now let me say again...Our away record this season is equal to our home in the league. Add the fact the last 3 matches away (where we've had trouble and where we've had the most challenging matches this year) were the only time where we've really struggled, had we won our away form would better our home form.

I stress, in these three matches, the only time we've really wasted our opportunities was against Juve (where we should've scored really, but at times things just went against us). Admittedly, Palermo and Livorno nullified and got the better of us tactically. Therefore, its not the form thats the real complaint most times, but possibly the tactical setup of the side.

The so called goal drought

Drifting again ... question is not of attacking gameplay. The problem is the goal drought in away games.

Again, this was to stress my main point of solidarity. I've spoken about the goal drought above and that if there is a problem, its in our tactical game, but also that I believe goals will come.

We are strong contenders for the UCL. I'm not denying that. However if we don't improve our away form we can kiss this competition goodbye. There will be a game where we don't do well in the home game. It is at that time when the away form comes into play. If we don't have it ... we've had it.

well, I've already said I believe we'll improve. One thing to note...Milan in 2003 (not 2002!) wasn't scoring many away, but we still one.

Both the current side and that side share two common attributes, not scoring many away, but importantly, staying solid always. This factor was clinical to our success then and it could be again.

We can't say we've had it until were out of the competition. However, even with our current away form, I think we have a good chance.

I would say I am 60% satisfied with our away form this season. Milan is a gigantic club in world football and you don't win 6 European Cups just reliant on the home form. We've been past masters of the away game and Ancelotti's side has been superb in the away matches except this season so far. I hope that it plays like it used to.

We aren't just reliant on home form this season, that is clearly shown in the stats.

do I really have to point it again? Our away form this year is equalling our home, even if there aren't as many goals there. The only reason our away form is at all questioned is due to the past three matches and I won't repeat myself again about those three matches.

Your argument about our away form this season holds no substance, as I fail to see anything beyond the last three matches (which I've spoken about) to suggest otherwise.

Solidarity didn't win us the game in Turin where we were toying around with Juventus. We owned them and made them look like a Serie B side. If we don't improve our focus and attention in the final third to make the most of our chances then we may have to pay a price for that. The UCL is an unforgiving competition where ONE MISTAKE is enough to eliminate a side. I think I have repeated that over 10 times on forum boards now and it is true to the core. ;)

I can't disagree there, we were wasteful and didn't stay focused in front of goal. That unfortunately is a trait at times of this Milan. Ancelotti is working on this as much as possible (he says its a problem often offensively and defensively). We can't afford these mistakes, BUT its become less common as the season goes on.

Don't forget, we are still improving this season, as we keep going, we play better football.

The team isn't making mistakes IMO. We are just under-utilizing our own self by not converting the chances enough. The only thing Carlo needs to do is make the players realize to remain more focused in the away games and put in the goals.

Milan loses 1-0 seven times more than it loses 2-1, 3-2 etc. It is much more relaxing for me personally when we score be it to equalize or score the first because even if we lose after that, it is manageable and within control.

e.g. Barcelona in the Nou Camp. We had a terrible game and yet it took a piece of Ronnie magic for them to get the win at the death. Even then we topped the group due to that away goal at the time. We MUST score at least 1.

ok we both agree that the side can be wasteful and lose concentration. That is definately the priority.

However, I do think tactically the side could improve. I don't think I'm the only one who believes this as Sacchi stated that even though this Milan is technically superior to his, tactically his was better ;)

phew, these long posts are a killer :D

Giovanni

26-01-2005, 17:59

jeez are you writing novels in this thread? :eek:

Warro Bantan

26-01-2005, 19:32

The posts above are all quite excellent in their depth, insight, and historical refrences, but I would like to mayhap suggest a more simple analysis of our defeats/poor results.

Statistically I do believe that we have scored much less than when we play at home. The "smaller" teams, in front of their fans in their home stadia, will play for a draw, absorbing pressure and looking to counter...unless they are coached by Zeman of course. :D

The problem IMO is simple: Carlo´s refusal to field enough attacking players, namely Rui, and until recently, Vikash.

Ambrosini cannot start for Milan, and it is time Carlo realises this, and if he does, Gattuso cannot be on the field at the same time. This combination (Ambro plus Gattuso)results in poor passing in the midfield, which effectively destroys any attacking build up initiated from the middle.

Without Pirlo, or Rui in his stead, we look pedestrian and predictable, and I have said it before, and will say it again, Milan need to have one or the other on the field if we are to score goals, and thus win games.

4-3-2-1 is my preferred formation when playing against defensive, midfield packing teams, and 4-3-1-2 when we face attacking teams such as Man U, etc.

Carlo´s problem is that he refuses to field an attak oriented midfield until we are losing, and this my friends, IMHO, is the root of the problem.

ACMILAN1983

26-01-2005, 20:56

jeez are you writing novels in this thread? :eek:

:haha:

Its quite tiring matching Haroon in length of posts :D

anyway, I'm sure some of the posters like yourself will enjoy the healthy debates about the side here ;)

Some interesting points there Warro. I agree with most actually. I also think Carlo made the wrong choice with Ambro and Gattuso. The fact is, neither is an advantage in building momentum in attacks, which stunts our play. I didn't bother mentioning it before as many already pointed it out.

One point which caught my eye in your was about the team formation. The fact is, what you are saying is to make adjustments to the formation based on who we play. This is similar to what I said too, but personally I think the adjustments should be made based on the team we are facing every game, which should result in being tactically more specific.

Dave

27-01-2005, 05:51

I think yes Gio he is writing novels!

Warro Bantan

27-01-2005, 10:46

Some interesting points there Warro. I agree with most actually. I also think Carlo made the wrong choice with Ambro and Gattuso. The fact is, neither is an advantage in building momentum in attacks, which stunts our play. I didn't bother mentioning it before as many already pointed it out.

One point which caught my eye in your was about the team formation. The fact is, what you are saying is to make adjustments to the formation based on who we play. This is similar to what I said too, but personally I think the adjustments should be made based on the team we are facing every game, which should result in being tactically more specific.

ACMILAN1983....I must say that I agree with you totally, we need to place more emphasis on an analysis of our opponents, and it appears that we did not learn our lessons from the previous encounter, which was a shock 2-2 draw in the San Siro.

We should have expected a tough, battling encounter, and IMO Carlo decided to fight fire with fire, instead of fire with finesse....

This was always going to be a bruising encounter, one in which our skill players (look at Vikash´s performance) would excell, as any player of the game can tell you...when opponents are rushing in with hard tackles, the more skillfull the player, the easier it is to avoid the tackle, or draw a foul.

Having bruisers like Gattuso and Ambro forced us to play Livorno´s game, and in their home stadium....a sure fire recipie for a loss.(or lost points..either way, not a good result)

Add to this scenario the political overtones..AC Milan aka "Big Brother" vs Livorno aka "The People´s team"....players on the pitch and it was obvious, even to the most biased observer, were playing at different emotional levels...Sheva was one of the few Milan players who seemed to display "fight"...poor Nesta went overboard and got sent off...the Milan players looked for the most part like the spoilt rich kids who went to the poorer side of town and got beaten..not because they didnt have equal or better skill, but because they didnt have enough "fight" in them...they had nothing to prove, while Livorno´s players were playing with their hearts on their sleeves.

A midfield of Rui (in Pirlos role) Vikash and Seedorf to start with, then once we control the game, and have a 2 or 3 goal lead, we introduce our bruisers, :r14: Ivan and Ambro :w209: , to shut down their attacks while we defend the lead...

Hmmm though as they say, hind sight is 20:20....sometimes methinks I should be a coach.... :devs: :dielaugh: :d33:

ACMILAN1983

27-01-2005, 18:40

ACMILAN1983....I must say that I agree with you totally, we need to place more emphasis on an analysis of our opponents, and it appears that we did not learn our lessons from the previous encounter, which was a shock 2-2 draw in the San Siro.

We should have expected a tough, battling encounter, and IMO Carlo decided to fight fire with fire, instead of fire with finesse....

This was always going to be a bruising encounter, one in which our skill players (look at Vikash´s performance) would excell, as any player of the game can tell you...when opponents are rushing in with hard tackles, the more skillfull the player, the easier it is to avoid the tackle, or draw a foul.

Having bruisers like Gattuso and Ambro forced us to play Livorno´s game, and in their home stadium....a sure fire recipie for a loss.(or lost points..either way, not a good result)

Add to this scenario the political overtones..AC Milan aka "Big Brother" vs Livorno aka "The People´s team"....players on the pitch and it was obvious, even to the most biased observer, were playing at different emotional levels...Sheva was one of the few Milan players who seemed to display "fight"...poor Nesta went overboard and got sent off...the Milan players looked for the most part like the spoilt rich kids who went to the poorer side of town and got beaten..not because they didnt have equal or better skill, but because they didnt have enough "fight" in them...they had nothing to prove, while Livorno´s players were playing with their hearts on their sleeves.

A midfield of Rui (in Pirlos role) Vikash and Seedorf to start with, then once we control the game, and have a 2 or 3 goal lead, we introduce our bruisers, :r14: Ivan and Ambro :w209: , to shut down their attacks while we defend the lead...

Hmmm though as they say, hind sight is 20:20....sometimes methinks I should be a coach.... :devs: :dielaugh: :d33:

good post.

Anyway, I'm tired of writing "novels" in this thread, so I think I'll leave it there now :D

Time to look ahead and hope Ancelotti learns from the mistakes

FORZA MILAN!