View Full Version : Ancelotti announces change in midfield...
ANCELOTTI: 'Don't worry, Milan have not stopped'
7/18/2005
MILAN - The talk in Corriere della Sera is of Carlo Ancelotti. The
Rossoneri coach focused on the upcoming season and said: 'I've
swallowed the game against Liverpool. I've catalogued it among the
misadventures that can happen in a job as mine. I must say that I
received great demonstration of sympathy, especially from those
working in football. [Christian] Vieri, for instance, the day after
Istanbul sent me an sms, I can't remember the precise words, but it
was warm. What will be our style of play this season? In certain
circumstances we could play with two men wide a bit more forward, as
we did last year with Serginho and Cafu, and with three defenders.
However, this is an alternative solution, the basic system will not
change. Because I find it difficult to do without a man in the middle
of the pitch.'
ancelotti has apparently suggested that one of the midfielders will adopt a new role for the coming season (last paragraph of article)
http://www.channel4.com/sport/football_italia/jul19i.html
so 2 questions...
1) which midfielder will it be?
2) what is the new role for this player?
:devs:
Max will play RB, that's what came to my mind.
ancelotti has apparently suggested that one of the midfielders will adopt a new role for the coming season (last paragraph of article)
http://www.channel4.com/sport/football_italia/jul19i.html
so 2 questions...
1) which midfielder will it be?
2) what is the new role for this player?
:devs:
I saw this, and still can't work it out! It can't really be pirlo, nor gattuso. Kaka does well sitting behind the strikers, it must be seedorf? But where? And where does that leave Jankulovski.
ACMILAN1983
19-07-2005, 10:14
My personal opinion is its either Seedorf or Kaka (Assuming its a first team player). Basically, I have a feeling Carlo is looking at our weaknesses in our current set up and will likely ask one of these guys to change their role tactically a little to strengthen up. However, I do think that this may not be easily noticeable at first glance and will only really be seen if you look at the way the team is playing carefully.
I saw this, and still can't work it out! It can't really be pirlo, nor gattuso. Kaka does well sitting behind the strikers, it must be seedorf? But where? And where does that leave Jankulovski.
you could be right.
if janku plays at left back he may ask seedorf to play more of a holding midfield role and to restrict his forrays in attack when janku is bombing forward.
however it all depends if janku is playing left back or i could be completely wrong!!! LOL
I think Gatusso will play a more central role.
According to acmilan.com english version, Ancelotti was quoted to "invent" a new role in midfield. When it comes to my mind, I think new task would be given to Kaka and Pirlo... I think they might switch position from time to time in the game to enhance the creativity of the team. Or given up the diamond formation and get Seedorf, gattuso, Pirlo in central midfield and Gattuso becomes a liberal defensive midfield to clear up anything down the flank when either LB or RB goes down the flank. Anyway, pure speculation indeed...
hitmannq8
19-07-2005, 12:46
No, it is not speculation..
ANCELOTTI: 'Meditating on something new'
7/19/2005
MILANELLO - Carlo Ancelotti announced that one of the players could be fielded in a new position: 'I have been thinking for some time and meditating over the possibility of inventing a new position for one out players. I could be a midfielder but I have spoken to him yet. I will do it soon, everything will naturally depend on whether he wants to do it.'
I think gattuso will be pushed more central and Cafu upwards..
No, it is not speculation..
ANCELOTTI: 'Meditating on something new'
7/19/2005
MILANELLO - Carlo Ancelotti announced that one of the players could be fielded in a new position: 'I have been thinking for some time and meditating over the possibility of inventing a new position for one out players. I could be a midfielder but I have spoken to him yet. I will do it soon, everything will naturally depend on whether he wants to do it.'
I think gattuso will be pushed more central and Cafu upwards..
doesnt this already happen though?
im sure this was already noted by ancelotti when he announced cafu was joining the club a couple of years back, i remember him saying it would involve gattuso filling in for cafu when he bombed forward.
Hitman...read your post wrong (thought it read that gattuso would fill cafus position)... ou could be right, gattuso may be pushed more centrally.
Gio-mania
19-07-2005, 14:07
i believe its got to do with seedorf...... he played poorly the end of last season-
either gives him a more playmaking role, a more defensive position, or maybe the flanks?
I'm sure we'll find out soon enough in the many pre-season friendlies we have.
On similar lines, when we are short of central defenders for whatever reason, do we ever play Kaladze at CB ? This is a make or break season for him. If he has a good season he will surely stay, but if it's anything like last season then he'll go in the summer.
He might use the 4-4-2 formation, sending Kaka and Janku to the flanks and Pirlo and Gattuso in the center.
or
he might use both Pirlo and Kaka in the centre moving Gattuso/Seerdorf to the right.
I guess it depends how DIFFERENT the new role will be.. :) I doubt it is a small adjustment, as he has been doing that all the time. Like moving Sheva and Rui to the flanks to support Pippo, that should not be what he was referring to. He was talking about something big. Like Dida becoming an attacker or something. :D
Nobody seems to agree with me on Ambrosini's being vice-Cafu? :nasty: I say that's mostly he is talking about, remember quite a decent job he (Ambro) has done for us in Manchester? This should put out all the rumors of us looking for Oddo or Mesto or Cassetti or Cicinho. :d33:
But I honestly don't mind seeing that move at all, if it is true after all. After seeing off Abbiati, Brocchi, JDT (don't get me wrong, I appreciate their work and loyalty and totally understand them), my admiration towards Max is only growing. I just want to see him stay and get more time. :5schal:
Nobody seems to agree with me on Ambrosini's being vice-Cafu? :nasty: I say that's mostly he is talking about, remember quite a decent job he (Ambro) has done for us in Manchester? This should put out all the rumors of us looking for Oddo or Mesto or Cassetti or Cicinho. :d33:
But I honestly don't mind seeing that move at all, if it is true after all. After seeing off Abbiati, Brocchi, JDT (don't get me wrong, I appreciate their work and loyalty and totally understand them), my admiration towards Max is only growing. I just want to see him stay and get more time. :5schal:
I agree with you and I feel that max should be given the same amount of playing time as gattuso.
I agree with you and I feel that max should be given the same amount of playing time as gattuso.
yeah but not at right back as Xudong thinks?
I agree with you and I feel that max should be given the same amount of playing time as gattuso.
People seem to like Gattuso a lot more than Max. I may be a strange one, but I will pick Max over Rino without much hesitation. I have always like him, and I still kind of hope that he will take over the captain armband one day Maldini retires (that should be very unlikely now). Rino is not handsome enough to be our captain. :u56:
yeah but not at right back as Xudong thinks?
LOL no, but only Ancelotti knows what Ancelotti is cooking, he must be mind fu(ked after the C.L defeat, he must still be having nightmares about that match inrespective of what he says.
yeah but not at right back as Xudong thinks?
Why not? Never say never. He used to play RB. Besides the most significant one (2003, Manchester), Ancelotti is reported to have fielded him in that position in MANY training games. Somehow, there were no follow-ups.
Remember that reading from somewhere (no source, sorry), that Ambrosini is even our No.1 emergency goalie! :fright: Never got a chance to see that (wish we don't have to), but wouldn't that be so cool that he is such a versatile player? :rock3: :rock3:
agreed his versaitle.. whats got me thinking is the fact that we signed another defensive midfielder in vogel.
we have gattuso, vogel and max.
considering berlusconi wants to play with two strikers i get the feeling that we will see milan playing 3-5-2 more often next season.
agreed his versaitle.. whats got me thinking is the fact that we signed another defensive midfielder in vogel.
Vogel is to take the place of Brocchi. We sell one and buy one (not necessarily in that order. :) ).
we have gattuso, vogel and max.
considering berlusconi wants to play with two strikers i get the feeling that we will see milan playing 3-5-2 more often next season.
That's a statement already made in public. With Janku and Cafu, it will be a crime if we don't even think of taking that advantage. However, as Ancelotti claimed, 4-man defense will still be our major one. :rolleyes:
Southernsun
19-07-2005, 19:10
i hope its a spot for ambrosini. man.....does he deserve a spot, even over ringhio.
triniman
19-07-2005, 20:20
The key word is invent...thus means sometihng new.......
i think it has to do with the 3-5-2 formation...
just my dumb opinion...but i think it has to do with a deeper midfeilder...
just a hunch, but we might see max filling in more a central defender role when defending...thus allowing maldini and stam to become more wingback during this period........
lemme see if i can clear this up for some ..
in attack:
--------striker 1--------------striker 2--------
-------------------attacking midfielder-----------------
------- midfielder 1---------------midfielder2------------
attacking wingback-----------------------------attacking wingback
------def 1---------------def 2--------------------def 3----------
but now in defnese..it may look like
--------striker 1--------------striker 2--------
-------------------attacking midfielder-----------------
attacking wingback-------midfielder1----------attacking wingback
def 1---------------def 2-----midfielder2-------------------def 3
thus allowing us to maintain a back 4 while leaving areas for the counter wide and in the center.....
like i said it is just a hunch, but something i have thought about with our team....
Christopher
19-07-2005, 22:02
I think Gatusso will play a more central role.
if that happens you can kiss any kind of offense good bye . . . except if you are going to use two central midfielders teaming he and Pirlo up in the middle . . . but then you would have to use a wing back such as Cafu to make runs up the sidline and basically play a three man defense . . .? what? who ? :rocky:
I merged the "Ancelotti : Don't worry, Milan have not stopped" thread into this one as no discussion took place there. :)
I think it's Seedorf who will have to adjust and work more centrally when Jankulowski plays as a LB in the 4-3-1-2 formation. When the 3-4-1-2 formation is used, everbody will have to adjust, so I doubt that that is what Ancelotti was referring to.
i am sorry if most of u might disagree... i think gattuso is a big obstacle to attacking football! he can not pass,cross,shoot,keep possession and he is... short.. i think we dont take full advantage of the best strike force that we have if we play gattuso. actually now i start to worry that ancelotti will keep using gattuso in starting eleven.
i am sorry if most of u might disagree... i think gattuso is a big obstacle to attacking football!
1.The topic for this discussion is what change we THINK Ancelotti will make, not hat change we WANT Ancelotti will make.
2. I disagree with you on Gattuso, in a 4 man midfield with 3 creative midfielders with limited defending abilities, Gattuso is the best option around. But that is really for discussion in another thread.
I think there are some games that are just made for Gattuso, whilst others where he just seems to hinder the teams progress. That's not to say that I think he's a bad player, I would just like to see a slightly more creative player take his place against teams that are likely to play for a draw.
But getting rid of him completely is a big mistake in my opinion. His grit, determination and defensive qualities make him an excellent holding midfielder. Wasn't he the player with the most tackles made during the last CL campaign?
As for him being the next captain, I wouldn't really like to say. He certainly has many of the qualities necessary for such an honor, but then I could say the same for a few others as well.
He was the Best player for Milan when we won the CL not too long ago. Gattuso that is.
i am sorry if most of u might disagree... i think gattuso is a big obstacle to attacking football!
I agree that Gattuso is a BIG obstacle to OUR OPPONENTS' attacking football. :musk: Isn't that sweet for us? :wave:
Southernsun
20-07-2005, 11:58
i am sorry if most of u might disagree... i think gattuso is a big obstacle to attacking football! he can not pass,cross,shoot,keep possession and he is... short.. i think we dont take full advantage of the best strike force that we have if we play gattuso. actually now i start to worry that ancelotti will keep using gattuso in starting eleven.
i agree with you. although ringhio is great for milan. we have ambrosini who can attack, and defend, and score goals. gattuso is very limited, where as.......ambrosini is more complete. lets leave this alone for another thread, ciao.
I agree that Gattuso is a BIG obstacle to OUR OPPONENTS' attacking football. :musk: Isn't that sweet for us? :wave:
:D sweet indeed :5ok:
Maldinista
20-07-2005, 13:23
I agree with Xudong and Triniman, I think Ancelotti's working on converting Ambro to a defensive role. Could be right back, but I would rate centre back as more likely, given that he is not the most mobile player.
He has done well there before, and it would provide more grit in midfield and more cover at the back, at the same time as keeping our offensive momentum.
Warro Bantan
20-07-2005, 13:26
The statement by Carlo has given me much food for thought in the aftermath of the Gila signing. Because he has been so vague as to who will be asked to change, and where in the midfield this change will occur, it is most difficult to speculate as to what he intends.
A look at our usual formation and players may give some clues however. Triniman´s post best describes the lay out of our team, and though he maintains it is what Carlo possibly intends, it seems more indicative of what it is we currently do:
Posted by Triniman
--------striker 1--------------striker 2--------
-------------------attacking midfielder-----------------
------- midfielder 1---------------midfielder2------------
attacking wingback-----------------------------attacking wingback
------def 1---------------def 2--------------------def 3----------
but now in defense..it may look like
--------striker 1--------------striker 2--------
-------------------attacking midfielder-----------------
attacking wingback-------midfielder1----------attacking wingback
def 1---------------def 2-----midfielder2-------------------def 3
Arguably, the "attacking wingback" may not bomb forward as often in our current set up, and based on my observations, while one attacks up one flank, the opposite back tends to stay to support the defense, and obviously, our midfield is a diamond, rather than the pyramid/triangle shown above.
Knowing Carlo, IMO he is looking at defensive options, as has been mentioned before, he must still be recovering from the Insanity in Istanbul, and I am sure he has reverted to the defensive midfielder mentality that tended to characterize his tactics early into his Milan tenure.
My theory is that he will be asking Seedorf to play less of an attacking role, dropping back to allow Pirlo to get closer to the box. Clarence tends to tackle well, while being able to hold the ball, and make good short to medium range passes. Add to that his composure, and this firms up for me, whom Carlo is seeking, someone who wont get flustered when under pressure from opposing midfielders or forwards, and allow Pirlo to play more of a role in the attack...Andrea tends to have a better shot and final pass than Clarence, and isnt a bad dribbler either...
So.....based on my theory..this would be the result on the pitch:
Defense
--------striker 1--------------striker 2--------
-------------attacking midfielder--------------
----- Seedorf---------------midfielder2------
-----------------Pirlo-----------------------
RB-----def 1---------------def 2----------LB
Switches to:
Attack:
--------striker 1--------------striker 2--------
----------------Kaka------Pirlo---------------
------------Seedorf-----------midfielder2------
RB--------def 1---------------def 2----------LB
So its a move from 4-3-1-2 to a 4-2-2-2 (aka 4-2-4..but minus the outright wingers of that formation) This tactic affords us attacking presence, allows for the RB or LB to go forward, without the loss of defensive cover, when Seedorf and midfielder 2 drops back.
Just my thoughts..approx 1.5 cents worth :D :nana:
there are fools on this msg board who think gattuso shouldn`t be in the first 11!!
every team needs a gattuso...you look at the likes of utd with keane, chelsea with makelele, juve with emerson etc.... the only team who didnt have one for a while was real madrid and look what has happened to them.
we need a battler in the midfield because the rest of those players are too soft and afraid of putting their body on the line. the reason why gattuso is as good as he is, is probably due to the time he spent at gers under walter smith, you can see that british passion in gattuso and i`m sure he got it from his time in scotland.
if some of the other milan and italy players had the passion like gattuso i`m sure we`d be a much better team. i often wish that italy would show some "bulldog" spirit to go with there fancy hair and flicks, we`d do alot more better than we have been doing.
I believe it will be Ambrosini as central defender.
Sandro Nesta is the only one under 30 right now. Ancelloti is thinking about
the future. This is also linked to the other discussion about our new captain
after Paolo ... can't say it, but you know...
Captain? Gattuso, the heart but too much emotion. Pirlo, the mind, but not enough presence. Sheva, the star, but needs to concentrate in looking to the other goal, not our team. Kaka, too young. Nesta, everything OK, except he was Lazio's captain still two years ago.
Ambro could be a good central defender, he already played there when he was younger. He can score goals. I can see him playing there.
[QUOTE=MATNAT]there are fools on this msg board who think gattuso shouldn`t be in the first 11!!
every team needs a gattuso...you look at the likes of utd with keane, chelsea with makelele, juve with emerson etc.... the only team who didnt have one for a while was real madrid and look what has happened to them.
QUOTE]
I agree completely that every team should have a battler like Gattuso in their line-up...but all those players you mentioned are also able to pass, counter, make creative plays and score once in a while. Gattuso is so one-dimensional it's ridiculous. I agree we need a battler and a fighter in midfield, but let's get one that could also help our team in the attacking zone once in a while. If Gattuso were a player in a smaller club he would be a nobody..people wouldn't even pay attention to him, but because he's at Milan he gets exposure. There are millions of players like gattuso in the world, the smaller clubs that have less talent are filled with battlers and fighters. Gattuso's importance is so overrated..I love him and his heart but no questions about it, he should definately be a sub. If he doesn't wanna be a sub, fine..he's very replaceable.
Warro Bantan
20-07-2005, 13:52
Well MATNAT, my only response to you is this:
Are they fools because they differ in opinion from yourself? But later for that, and back to the Gattuso issue...and because I disagree with you re Rino starting, I must be a fool as well... :dontkn:
While I agree that every team needs a ballwinner in central midfield, my problem with Rino, (and I think this is shared by many here) is his inability to contribute to the attack in any positive way..when he does, its more the exception than the rule, actually, its the exception that proves the rule.
Let us also examine the other players you are comparing him to, all of whom are excellent ballwinners:
Graveson: No slouch on the ball, can beat players, and make a good pass (usually short range)
Makelele: Excellent tackling ability, can beat players, and good short and long range passer
Keane: Not bad with the ball at his feet, can win balls 6 times out of 10, and can make a final pass, and score to top it off...usually when Man U need a goal...in clutch matches (Maldini made him look like a school boy in one of the UCL qtr final legs though, I openly admit)
IMO, all of these players are better on the ball than Gattuso, but what he has over them is, and I agree with you 100%, is his passion, his willingness to chase from one end of the pitch to the other, yes, his heart.
But as was blatantly obvious in the penalty he gave up vs Liverpool in Istanbul :moan: he is sometimes tactically niave...he should have fouled Gerrard outside the box, even at the top of the "D".
As much as I dislike Ambro, based on recent matches (ie the last few in last season) I think Max would be my starter over Rino, simply because Max contributes more to the attack...
yeah but we need a ball winner, thats the whole point of the arguement.(fools may have been a bit strong warro) ;)
gattuso is not in that team to attack. the team needs to have balance otherwise you end up being like real madrid.
regardless, gattuso is a better ball winner than ambro. ambro maybe be technically better, but he won`t run and fight till the very end. in a team full of fancy "dans" (i mean no di-respect to pirlo, kaka etc..) gattuso is needed, his inclusion also ablances the team..remember we were all moaning at how we don`t keep leads..we need at least one gattuso type player in that team and as a bal winner he`s better than ambro.
with gattuso you know he`ll fight to the very end, like carragher of liverpool or keane of man utd.. they never give up, always scrapping and fighting..oppostion players hat them because of there never say die attitude.
how many times have you seen gattusos passion explode on the pitch? we`ve all seen it many times, its uplifting for the players and uplifting for the fans to see someone who is so passionate, someone with a "never say die" attitude...thats what gattuso brings to this team.
he is probably the most under-rated player in that team, he doesn`t get the respect in italy as he would probably do in england alex ferguson knows a thing or too about football and they were citing gattuso as a repalcement for keane.
keane, gravesen etc..are not in the team to attack. there in there to defend and win the ball.
every team in the world needs a gattuso and we should be very lucky that we have him.
gattuso not a starter??:haha::haha::haha:
ok if gattuso is a big obstacle in our attaking football
we should play something like this:
-----------dida-----------
---------nesta------------
-pirlo---seedorf--rui--kaka--serginho
--pippo--bobo--sheva--gila---
this is a geat formation so that noone(except nesta & dida of course}
could be an obstacle
for our attaking football...:hammer::v46::5130::wallbang:
GIVE ME A BREAK!!!
-----------dida-----------
---------nesta------------
-pirlo---seedorf--rui--kaka--serginho
--pippo--bobo--sheva--gila---
That looks suspiciously much like a Real Madrid formation... :delol:
freddydaddy7
21-07-2005, 01:10
i have feeling it will be Ambro having him on CB postion he has done that few times but he needs to get used to that postion for while knowing Ambro is pretty good defensive he can surely handle that postion remebr Maldini how long he took to get used to it he was not happy about it at first but look at him now he has done amazing there.
so about Gattsuo the problem is not him the main thing is seein how badly Seedorf i like him but at times he is too careless and too over confidnet in him self if he could be have of what Veron or Cambiasso does it would be prefect but he could dissapre for while and come back and back in.
Gattsuo is figther brings his team back in and figths for every ball and i love that in him makes his team mates work harder and i believe we need him to work on his passing skills and his shooting or else he doesnt go so far up.
other then that its all fine
Southernsun
21-07-2005, 06:40
well......as of last nights tim cup. the "change" in midfield was: playing a 3 man defence (against inter) with ambrosini dropping back to help and making the defence becoming 4 man. i kinda like the idea, sort of reminds me what lippi did with zambrotta.
Southernsun,
I agree with you. I think Ambro should start getting some minutes as CB.
Problem is that Ancelloti created the best pair of CB in the world: Nesta and Maldini.
Then, when Stam played so well in Champions League agains Man. Utd. he left him in,
and moved Paolo back to the left... if we had Kaladze or Billy play left in Istambul, and Maldini back in the middle, we could have__________
So realistically, what would our line up be?
And Ambro was never a starter last year, whos he gonna bench if it all happens.
I think the change that will happen is only that Carlo will ask Ambro to permanently be a centre back so that Milan dont need to splash the cash. I think he'll be a good player there IF he can control his reckless tackles and avoid being booked to damn many times.
If Carlo is talking about "inventing" something new altogether, I have a feeling it will be as famous as Pirlo's transformation where now everybody calls his position "The Pirlo".
Next, "The Ambro"? Haha :D
I don't think Ancelloti will make that many changes... of course it will have variations, but basically, I'd say:
Dida, Cafu, Nesta, Maldini, Jankulovsky, Pirlo, Gattuso, Seedorf, Kaka, Sheva, Gilardino.
I am glad this topic does not stir up the same kind of debate as on XT ;)
ACMILAN1983
22-07-2005, 17:15
This has turned out to be an interesting thread actually and I must admit some good points have been made.
Although I agree with trini that Ambro could be used in a role where he moves into the defence to make it kind of like a four man defence. However, I don't think this will happen for two reasons. The first is if Ambro is playing and moves back into defence and he's the only holding midfielder on the pitch, then the defensive structure of the midfield suffers as we have no real ball winners. However, if there is another ball winner (i.e. Gattuso) on the pitch, the team lacks a key element to the game, which is controlling possession, as these two together usually result in us allowing the opponents attack us without holding the ball (or should I say without being able to).
Now Warro also has some interesting points too. I like the idea of Pirlo moving forward more and Seedorf being deeper, but I'm not quite sure how much it would benefit us from the current setup. You see, while Pirlo may be able to get us some good play in attacking areas, he will need to use a lot of energy to perform the role and move forward and backwards like that, which I fear him doing as it doesn't suit him too well. Seedorf can pass well and has good composure and control, but I don't think he will be as effective as Pirlo at building attacks and controlling play, which he'll have to be able to do if Pirlo is expected to move higher up the pitch when we attack.
Personally, I would like Kaka to change his role. Whilst atm he plays as a part of the attacking trident, I would like to see him move into a deeper and wider role. With him playing a deeper role on one side and Seedorf on the other, we can try to solidify the defensive structure more. The aim would be to try and increase the pressure on opponents more and protect wide areas better (a weakness atm I believe).
Anyway, the team would look a bit like this...
----------Dida--------------
Cafu--Nesta-Maldini--Janku--
-------Gattuso-Pirlo---------
--Seedorf---------Kaka------
----------------Sheva-------
---------Gila----------------
Kaka and Seedorf would be given freedom to come central in attacking moves, but would be expected to play out wide too. When Janku or Cafu attack, it may be necessary for the to stay a little deeper to provide some cover. I moved Seedorf over to the right as it will allow Rino to stay more central, as Kaka is naturally more attacking than Seedorf, meaning situations may arise where the midfield may look like...
----------Rino--Pirlo
--Seedorf------------------
---------------Kaka--------
It may not seem it, but what I'm pretty much suggesting is Milan go to a formation similar to Sacchi's Milan.
Now, I was planning to move onto what I think Carlo is actually planning, but I'll leave that till next time as this post is longer than expected :D
That's the same line up I gave you... you really got into detail, we all expect the same.
Kaka' will remain trequartista, Ancelotti will not invent anything, maybe Ambro as CB only.
If everything works as well as it does, why change it? Just add a new level with Gila and Janko.
This has turned out to be an interesting thread actually and I must admit some good points have been made.
Although I agree with trini that Ambro could be used in a role where he moves into the defence to make it kind of like a four man defence. However, I don't think this will happen for two reasons. The first is if Ambro is playing and moves back into defence and he's the only holding midfielder on the pitch, then the defensive structure of the midfield suffers as we have no real ball winners. However, if there is another ball winner (i.e. Gattuso) on the pitch, the team lacks a key element to the game, which is controlling possession, as these two together usually result in us allowing the opponents attack us without holding the ball (or should I say without being able to).
Now Warro also has some interesting points too. I like the idea of Pirlo moving forward more and Seedorf being deeper, but I'm not quite sure how much it would benefit us from the current setup. You see, while Pirlo may be able to get us some good play in attacking areas, he will need to use a lot of energy to perform the role and move forward and backwards like that, which I fear him doing as it doesn't suit him too well. Seedorf can pass well and has good composure and control, but I don't think he will be as effective as Pirlo at building attacks and controlling play, which he'll have to be able to do if Pirlo is expected to move higher up the pitch when we attack.
Personally, I would like Kaka to change his role. Whilst atm he plays as a part of the attacking trident, I would like to see him move into a deeper and wider role. With him playing a deeper role on one side and Seedorf on the other, we can try to solidify the defensive structure more. The aim would be to try and increase the pressure on opponents more and protect wide areas better (a weakness atm I believe).
Anyway, the team would look a bit like this...
----------Dida--------------
Cafu--Nesta-Maldini--Janku--
-------Gattuso-Pirlo---------
--Seedorf---------Kaka------
----------------Sheva-------
---------Gila----------------
Kaka and Seedorf would be given freedom to come central in attacking moves, but would be expected to play out wide too. When Janku or Cafu attack, it may be necessary for the to stay a little deeper to provide some cover. I moved Seedorf over to the right as it will allow Rino to stay more central, as Kaka is naturally more attacking than Seedorf, meaning situations may arise where the midfield may look like...
----------Rino--Pirlo
--Seedorf------------------
---------------Kaka--------
It may not seem it, but what I'm pretty much suggesting is Milan go to a formation similar to Sacchi's Milan.
Now, I was planning to move onto what I think Carlo is actually planning, but I'll leave that till next time as this post is longer than expected :D
i like this idea too..kind of reminds me of brazil 1994.
yeah but we need a ball winner, thats the whole point of the arguement.(fools may have been a bit strong warro)
gattuso is not in that team to attack. the team needs to have balance otherwise you end up being like real madrid.
regardless, gattuso is a better ball winner than ambro. ambro maybe be technically better, but he won`t run and fight till the very end. in a team full of fancy "dans" (i mean no di-respect to pirlo, kaka etc..) gattuso is needed, his inclusion also ablances the team..remember we were all moaning at how we don`t keep leads..we need at least one gattuso type player in that team and as a bal winner he`s better than ambro.
with gattuso you know he`ll fight to the very end, like carragher of liverpool or keane of man utd.. they never give up, always scrapping and fighting..oppostion players hat them because of there never say die attitude.
how many times have you seen gattusos passion explode on the pitch? we`ve all seen it many times, its uplifting for the players and uplifting for the fans to see someone who is so passionate, someone with a "never say die" attitude...thats what gattuso brings to this team.
he is probably the most under-rated player in that team, he doesn`t get the respect in italy as he would probably do in england alex ferguson knows a thing or too about football and they were citing gattuso as a repalcement for keane.
keane, gravesen etc..are not in the team to attack. there in there to defend and win the ball.
every team in the world needs a gattuso and we should be very lucky that we have him.
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Last edited by MATNAT : 21-07-2005 at 05:31.
fools may have been a bit strong? who were u referring to? the answer is we will not know until the season starts..
i agree gattuso's main task is to win the ball not to attack, i dont expect him to score goals or dribble pass 2 or 3 players, my only problem with him is he can not pass or cross, which is the basic skills in football! u may only notice how many balls that he won, but have u counted how many balls that he lost as well? now we got the best strike force in the world, we must maximise this weapon! how often were the attacking build up that we lost? there are some players who can replace him who can contribute to both defence and attack, such as: ambrosini, vogel, seedorf. probably rino can emerge in starting 11 occasionally depending on the oppositions, but definitely not in majority of the games! overall, i think ambrosini(i dont have to explain what he can do) is underrated, gattuso is overrated!
yes the similarity among gattuso, carragher and keane is their passions and never say die attitude and i AGREE every team need such players, but the the difference between gattuso and carragher/keane is rino is awfully one dimensional and carragher/keane are versatile(i can elaborate this further if necessary).
actually i am more than happy to accept ferguson's offer for gattuso and use that money to buy julio baptista or maresca!
u mentioned that gattuso's explosion of emotion uplifts the teams.. unfortunately that did not happen in CL final in istanbul!
i respect your opinion, and i just express mine.. if there is disagreement , thats fine.. it makes the world goes around, doesnt it?
Rando, of course every opinnion deserves respect... no problem.
Just one question, did you really mean Maresca (as in Enzo Maresca, Juventus) to replace Gatusso?
That's like using a FIAT to replace a FERRARI...
fact is ambrosini has been at the club for almost 10 years now and he still cannot command a regular place for milan. even before gattuso came ambrosini was never considered a regular.
at best hes an average holding midfielder. he always seems like one of those players who looks busy if though he aint.
i also remember reading an article based on the milan labs mental and physical tests.
guess who was the best all rounder out of those tests? yes you guessed it folks it was gattuso.
some of you seem to forget how much gattuso has improved during his years at milan, that has been well documented.
imagine if gattuso wasn`t in that team do you really think that if his place was taken by ambrosini, they`d be where they are today?
and rando..you really want maresca? if ever there was a player who was over-rated he`d be one of the first names on the team sheet.
and as for baptista, whats he going to bring to that milanese midfield? more cover for the defence? stay back and protect us aginst counter attacks?
milan doesn`t need stratergies to build attacks what it needs is stratergies to defend and protect leads.
I.M.O sumed it up best when he suggested that there are people who think that the best team for milan would only consist of dida and nesta with the rest of the team made up of attacking midfielders and strikers...remember folks this AIN`T fantasy football. (despite what florentino perez and roman abramovic might tell you)
(now please let me get back to my knitting) :web:
Here is what I hope and think will happen. Milan will play with two different formations this season, 3-4-1-2 and 4-3-1-2 depending on opposition, injuries and and the individual form of each player.
3-4-1-2:
--------- Gila - Sheva
------------ Kaka
- Janky - Pirlo - Gattuso - Cafu
--- Maldini - Nesta - Stam
The 3-4-1-2 is likely our strongest formation on paper. 1) It allows for Maldini, Nesta and Stam to play at the same time 2) It allows for Jankulowski and Cafu to act as true wingers, not being as concerned with moving back to defend. It will definately allow the attack, which last year only came from the center and the right to broaden, forcing defences to cover both sides, hence also giving us more oppurtinities down the center 3) It allows Gattuso to play more centrally, where he really belongs. 4) Its a very flexible solution, it can easily be transferred into a 5-3-2 in a defending situation or a 3-2-3-2 in attack.
I don't agree with the notion that a DM should move down to defend as a CB. Good CB pairings need to evolve over time, thats why Nesta-Stam and Nesta-Maldini worked last year and not Maldini-Stam. Keep the three defenders together and move either one or both of the wingers down to cover a flank/flanks.
4-3-1-2
--------- Gila
---------------- Sheva
------------ Kaka
Janky/Seedorf
-------------------- Gattuso
------------ Pirlo
-------------------------Cafu
Maldini - Nesta - Stam
The formation that worked very well last year, but lacked on edge on the left side of the midfield. The formation is by nature assymetrical as Cafu is expected to venture higher up than the LB and Janky/Seedorf is expected to contribute more to the attack than Gattuso. Continuity should not easily be discarded, even if I personally prefer the 3-4-1-2
Honestly, this is what I want to see
--------------------Dida-------------------
Cafu-----------Nesta---Maldini---Jankulovski
------Gattuso--------Pirlo-------------------
-----------------------------Seedorf---
-------------------Kaká------------------
-------Shevchenko------Gilardino---------
So basically, no change to last season. This formation should be used againts the lesser teams. Teams hard to break. However, againts the big teams, Stam or Ambro will play instead of Janku and Pirlo.
I dont agree at all with a 3 man defense because if you take into account whos more important between Stam and Seedorf, I'd say Seedorf.
Given Jankulowskis natural tendency (and skills) to go forward, that is a pretty unbalanced formation Shevchenko7, that risks a lot in defence IMO. If we are to play with two attacking wingbacks, I would play Max in Seedorfs position.
The alternative being great cordination between the left and the right wingback, so that only one of them venture forward at the same time. But I would prefer to let them both go forward from a midfield position, being backed by a 3-man defense.
Given Jankulowskis natural tendency (and skills) to go forward, that is a pretty unbalanced formation Shevchenko7, that risks a lot in defence IMO. If we are to play with two attacking wingbacks, I would play Max in Seedorfs position.
The alternative being great cordination between the left and the right wingback, so that only one of them venture forward at the same time. But I would prefer to let them both go forward from a midfield position, being backed by a 3-man defense.
Yeah Seedorf isnt in the equation anymore. He shouldnt be when Jankulowski is playing.
Maybe if Kaladze is at left back... ok Seedorf plays.
here is food for thought... how about using shevchenko7 formation with 2 adjustments.
1. kaladze replaces seedorf
2. kaladze withdraws his role basically becoming the gattuso of the left hand side.
this would permit janku free license to bomb up the left hand flank, he wouldnt have to worry with being caught out of position because first of all there is kaladze there and secondly kaladze is comfortable playing at left back.
the formation would provide prtoection in front of the defence because both gattuso and kaladze are work horses and are strong physically. kaladze has a good first touch and has played in midfield before, he never looks uncomfortble when in possession of the ball.
it would permit the fullbacks to get forward as much as possible.
it would provide the balance and and the stability this milan team needs without changing too much.
the beauty of this is that it doesnt restrict milan attacking potential or pirlo`s and kakas creativness. pirlo is still able to play in his deep role this time being supported by kaladze and gattuso.
at any one time there could be cafu, janku, pirlo, kaka, gila and sheva attacking with gattuso, kaladze, nesta and maldini defending and providing cover.
what do you think?
why is everybody omitting Seedorf from the squad?
Of course he had a bad season but he is very, very important to us. He can do anything. Tackle, shoot, attack, defend, dribble, create.. ANYTHING.
And please read my post again, I said that formation should be used againts the lesser teams, like Inter etc...
:D
Gio-mania
23-07-2005, 13:34
seedorf is awesome- just not a great season...............
maybe seedorf could get a re-invented position.
but we'll see
ACMILAN1983
23-07-2005, 14:29
well, Seedorf is a great player, but imho, I think its his inconsistency that makes people have so many concerns about him. I'm just hoping that it doesn't turn out to be a problem this year.
Shevchenko-[7], I wouldn't place Stam and Ambro in the big games instead of Pirlo and Janku. There are two reasons for this, the first being that with Stam we will end up losing the balance in the side as the left will lose a lot of its attacking prowess, meaning there will be a reliability on the right to provide width to our play (something which has occured duing the past season or two). The other reason I wouldn't make these changes is because Pirlo is an integral figure in our midfield and performs a role which Ambro cannot do. With Ambro and Rino in midfield, we would actually risk inviting our opponents onto us as we wouldn't have the necessary qualities to hold the ball in the midfield, which would result in us losing control of our play and possession and, thus, we lose a key aspect of our game.
Right, yesterday I said I would actually give my thoughts on the changes I expect Ancelotti to make and here they are...
Firstly, I think Henrik's desires could be reality of a 3 man defence. Essentially, it will allow us to utilise wide areas with Janku and Cafu given more freedom, Gattuso will play more centrally and will therefore be able to protect us more easily against the opposisition attacks and the team will be well balanced.
However, an issue I have with this formation is one element but a key element, which is Nesta and more importantly Maldini. Though its possible both can form an incredible defence with Stam, I do hesitate about their ability to play in a three man defence. I can remember that neither seemed particularly happy when creating a 3 man defence with Italy, where Cannavaro was in place of Stam. I think positionally, both may get drawn out of their positions resulting in the defence being stretched and I'm unsure about Maldini commanding the defence from the left, as I think he struggles to organise when placed at the side of the defence rather than in the middle, where its easier to command those around him. However, I could be wrong and both may have improved on this aspect of their game.
Realistically, I think we'll be using a similar if not the same formation as previous years this coming year. As it has proven successful before, I believe Carlo may decide its reliable to use. The only change I can really see at this point is he may decide to utilise to left side more and probably will look to attempt to solidify the midfield in defensive areas with some changes (hence he said about "inventing" a new position in midfield). Personally, I won't complain if we were to use this system, but I do think we have better alternatives now. If there is one area I'd like us to specifically look at, it has to be our pressure play, which atm isn't particularly great and we defend deep when we have to defend. Personally, I'd like us to be a bit more aggressive and look to gain possession higher up the pitch.
hitmannq8
23-07-2005, 14:42
But you guys dont seem to be getting it, he said a new role will be ´invented´, ie. never been used before. Just like Pirlo, when he came to Milan, he was an attacking midfielder. Carlo invented for him a new defensive-playmaking role, and look how amazing he is in it. People now call that position "The Pirlo Role". Carlo is certainly a mathematician, a really smart one. I suggested at the beginning that the change will be pushing Gattuso into the centre, but that is not inventing, that is almost exactly what has been happening last year. Expect something wierd to happen. Im expecting it to be Seedorf, as it will be something to improve his consistency. Seedorf always mentioned that he didnt like that left-midfield role and always wanted a Trequartista role (never knew how is it spelt :P, and for any1 who doesnt know what that means, that is the Kaka/Totti/Rui role). Im certainly going to see the Chelsea game tomorrow as im expecting us to see the new role as soon as tomorrow!
fact is ambrosini has been at the club for almost 10 years now and he still cannot command a regular place for milan. even before gattuso came ambrosini was never considered a regular.
at best hes an average holding midfielder. he always seems like one of those players who looks busy if though he aint.
i also remember reading an article based on the milan labs mental and physical tests.
guess who was the best all rounder out of those tests? yes you guessed it folks it was gattuso.
some of you seem to forget how much gattuso has improved during his years at milan, that has been well documented.
imagine if gattuso wasn`t in that team do you really think that if his place was taken by ambrosini, they`d be where they are today?
and rando..you really want maresca? if ever there was a player who was over-rated he`d be one of the first names on the team sheet.
and as for baptista, whats he going to bring to that milanese midfield? more cover for the defence? stay back and protect us aginst counter attacks?
milan doesn`t need stratergies to build attacks what it needs is stratergies to defend and protect leads.
I.M.O sumed it up best when he suggested that there are people who think that the best team for milan would only consist of dida and nesta with the rest of the team made up of attacking midfielders and strikers...remember folks this AIN`T fantasy football. (despite what florentino perez and roman abramovic might tell you)
(now please let me get back to my knitting)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Last edited by MATNAT : 23-07-2005 at 10:53.
=======================================================
u certainly missed the plot. in ancelotti's defensive minded system and lack of attacking creativity, yes gattuso is fit into the system. as i said again and again NOW we have the squad built for attacking football!! what is the point buying vieri,gilardino,jankulovski if u r defensive? milan's success is not based on gattuso, well i couldnt prove that milan would be more successful without gattuso since gattuso played in most games.
u said milan dont need strategies to build attacks, what it needs is strategies to defend and protect leads??? where have u been in the last 2 years?? milan's embarrasing defeat vs deportivo and liverpool were caused mostly by your strategies to relax,defend and protect leads( i am sure gattuso was playing in both of these matches)!!! i am glad u r not a milan's coach!
probably i should criticise ancelotti's selection not gattuso. and if gattuso gets a starting 11, it should be in 3 men defence system, not in every system. if ancelotti does not win one of scudetto or CL next season, i think he can say goodbye.
in response to your last paragraph, i or anyone here NEVER said that we should play with ONLY dida and nesta at the back u fool! and no clubs in the world only use one defender!
fact is ambrosini has been at the club for almost 10 years now and he still cannot command a regular place for milan. even before gattuso came ambrosini was never considered a regular.
at best hes an average holding midfielder. he always seems like one of those players who looks busy if though he aint.
i also remember reading an article based on the milan labs mental and physical tests.
guess who was the best all rounder out of those tests? yes you guessed it folks it was gattuso.
some of you seem to forget how much gattuso has improved during his years at milan, that has been well documented.
imagine if gattuso wasn`t in that team do you really think that if his place was taken by ambrosini, they`d be where they are today?
and rando..you really want maresca? if ever there was a player who was over-rated he`d be one of the first names on the team sheet.
and as for baptista, whats he going to bring to that milanese midfield? more cover for the defence? stay back and protect us aginst counter attacks?
milan doesn`t need stratergies to build attacks what it needs is stratergies to defend and protect leads.
I.M.O sumed it up best when he suggested that there are people who think that the best team for milan would only consist of dida and nesta with the rest of the team made up of attacking midfielders and strikers...remember folks this AIN`T fantasy football. (despite what florentino perez and roman abramovic might tell you)
(now please let me get back to my knitting)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Last edited by MATNAT : 23-07-2005 at 10:53.
=======================================================
u certainly missed the plot. in ancelotti's defensive minded system and lack of attacking creativity, yes gattuso is fit into the system. as i said again and again NOW we have the squad built for attacking football!! what is the point buying vieri,gilardino,jankulovski if u r defensive? milan's success is not based on gattuso, well i couldnt prove that milan would be more successful without gattuso since gattuso played in most games.
u said milan dont need strategies to build attacks, what it needs is strategies to defend and protect leads??? where have u been in the last 2 years?? milan's embarrasing defeat vs deportivo and liverpool were caused mostly by your strategies to relax,defend and protect leads( i am sure gattuso was playing in both of these matches)!!! i am glad u r not a milan's coach!
probably i should criticise ancelotti's selection not gattuso. and if gattuso gets a starting 11, it should be in 3 men defence system, not in every system. if ancelotti does not win one of scudetto or CL next season, i think he can say goodbye.
in response to your last paragraph, i or anyone here NEVER said that we should play with ONLY dida and nesta at the back u fool! and no clubs in the world only use one defender!
Rando, i do have to say i`m enjoying this debate, however i think your being a little silly in suggesting that milan shouldn`t work on there defensive play.
i can see your quite clearly riled at my banter (that comes at no extra cost) and have overlooked the whole situation.
i shall now be gentle with you. :kotc:
if you look at milans play over the past 2 seasons milan have become more open and have focused most of the play on attacking. if you remember when we won the CL in 2003 we played a 4-4-2 formation. that was all to change the following season once we signed kaka and cafu. kakas influence and pirlos emergence as a deep lying playmaker forced the normally strict ancellotti (loves his 4-4-2 from his days as a player), into finding a system that benefited pirlo and kaka for the good of the team (whether this is TRULY BEST for the team remains inconclusive).
the problem with the new formation (4-3-1-2) is that its unbalanced and harder for players to get accustomed too. reason being is that the players in the midfield have to do so much more work, if you don`t have the players in the midfield then that system will not work (the defence is a standard back four with attacking fullbacks, whilst up front is the standard 2 man strike force).
what we have seen during the past 2 seasons and not just those defeats to liverpool and deportivo, but also against many of the minnows during the season is an inability to defend as a secure and tight unit. surely its plainy obvious to the most casual observer that milans inability to hold onto leads has seen them lose both the scudetto and the champions league via drawing and losing games.
to rectify this is simply not a case to abandon all methods and tactics of defending.
you want to attack all the time, well you can only attack when you have the ball, what happens when sheva and co don`t have the ball?
do we just say "ah well, never mind at least we can attack?"
the team has to work with and without the ball, in which case it would seem milan need to work on what to do when they don`t have the ball.
ancellotti should go back to the basics of his previous managers which had taught him so much when he was a player, to start defending as a secure and rugged unit in the style that would be loved by sacchi and capello.
adios amigo :smileani:
@RANDO
can you see the "quote" button on the bottom right of each post? you can press that and you could quote the person without using ur own =============== methods :)
However, an issue I have with this formation is one element but a key element, which is Nesta and more importantly Maldini. Though its possible both can form an incredible defence with Stam, I do hesitate about their ability to play in a three man defence. I can remember that neither seemed particularly happy when creating a 3 man defence with Italy, where Cannavaro was in place of Stam.
You got a point here Dev, and like you I tend to think that last years formation likely will be used in the majority of cases.
The 3 man defence is risky defensively, but what you gain by taking on that risk is the ability to attack down both flanks and thru the center, quite possible putting pressure in all these areas at the same time. This is something that is much harder to do in a 4 man defense solution, without exposing yourself too much. 3-4-1-2 is a more attacking formation, whether it is better or not will likely be explored this season. :)
humanTORCH
24-07-2005, 08:12
Basically why Milan is reinventing the midfield is that the opponent has found our main weakness which had been exploited in the matches against PSV. With the players that Milan posess now we have the wealth to change our formations depending on the opponent or during matches. I believe that no plaayers especially in midfield can confidently say that their place has been cemented in the starting eleven especially seedorf and pirlo.
Just my two cents thought.
ACMILAN1983
24-07-2005, 15:28
You got a point here Dev, and like you I tend to think that last years formation likely will be used in the majority of cases.
The 3 man defence is risky defensively, but what you gain by taking on that risk is the ability to attack down both flanks and thru the center, quite possible putting pressure in all these areas at the same time. This is something that is much harder to do in a 4 man defense solution, without exposing yourself too much. 3-4-1-2 is a more attacking formation, whether it is better or not will likely be explored this season. :)
It is more harder to do with a 4 four man defence, but I guess its how you view the teams style of play. Like you said, the 3 man defence would provide good balance and apply attacking pressure to all parts of the opposition at the same time if desired, which I would say is a more attacking look at the side.
Personally, my opinions arise from looking at the defensive structure of the side, so my ideas are based around preventing the opposition from mounting strong attacks and us holding the ball as much as we can. When referring to pressure, I was actually referring to team retaining the ball once its back more than applying pressure on the opposition when attacking. I think its differences like these that result in us all having different interpretations of how we want Milan to play this year.
humanTorch, although I agree with most of what you said, I must say I doubt Pirlo is one of those more likely to lose his position in the starting eleven. His role in the side is critical and he is definately the best at performing it. On top of this he has been quite possibly our most vital player for 3 seasons and was argubly our best midfielder last season, despite having such a hard summer last year.
I reckon Ancelotti must visit this forum as its the only place I've really found discussing Ambro being moved into defence, which he has come out today to say it won't happen :D
matnat, i think i should cease this particular debate with u because it leads to nowhere.
shevchenko-7, i know the quote button, but it doesnt display the comment when i am typing my reply and i cant remember what the quoted message is.
my formation: 3-4-1-2: dida- stam nesta maldini- cafu pirlo seedorf serginho-kaka- sheva gilardino
subs: eleftheropoulos, kaladze, jankulovski, vogel, ambrosini, ruicosta, vieri
:uhm: :tired:
freddydaddy7
25-07-2005, 07:19
I disagree Rando about ur lineup formation is great but u have no ball winners or someone that would fight back in the middle u picked the 2 of the slowest CM ahead of the Def and that’s pirlo and Seedorf every team would have party in middle when they are attacking us or on counter attack..
Its great but u need Gattsuo or Ambro next to pirlo doing the dirty work.
Did u see the game last night when we played Chelsea we really suffered in the middle even robbins goal came from the middle coz we gave him so much space we have to close the space in the middle its like rivers flow down there with ease.
The truth is when u play in certain formation the coach has to find to strong players to cover the back line like when Roma where playing the 3-5-2 having emersion and dicourt I know its bit defensive but its worth it having seedorf and Pirlo its pretty scary coz they tend to walk back not run Janku and Cafu would be busy flying on the flanks but the middle will be all up to Seedorf and Pirlo so its kind scary, depends on the other team.
humanTORCH
25-07-2005, 09:08
humanTorch, although I agree with most of what you said, I must say I doubt Pirlo is one of those more likely to lose his position in the starting eleven. His role in the side is critical and he is definately the best at performing it. On top of this he has been quite possibly our most vital player for 3 seasons and was argubly our best midfielder last season, despite having such a hard summer last year.
I don't deny it that pirlo was instrumental for us. He is the best in his role with his sublime passes and control but remember he could be the weakest link when opponent breath down his neck as his defensive qualities is questionable. I believe he is irreplaceable but we might see him moved to a new foward position or replaced by vogel when a defensive steel is needed.
Warro Bantan
25-07-2005, 10:42
From acmilan.com
ANCELOTTI: 'Ambrosini will never be a defender under me'
7/24/2005
BOSTON - Carlo Ancelotti has shed some light on his midfield changes: 'I did not refer to Ambrosini. It's true Massimo could cover the defensive role either in the centre, left or right, he has the quality to do so but as long as I am on the Milan bench Ambro will only be a midfielder.'
Warro Bantan
25-07-2005, 11:15
This has turned out to be an interesting thread actually and I must admit some good points have been made.
Quite intresting indeed!
Now Warro also has some interesting points too. I like the idea of Pirlo moving forward more and Seedorf being deeper, but I'm not quite sure how much it would benefit us from the current setup. You see, while Pirlo may be able to get us some good play in attacking areas, he will need to use a lot of energy to perform the role and move forward and backwards like that, which I fear him doing as it doesn't suit him too well. Seedorf can pass well and has good composure and control, but I don't think he will be as effective as Pirlo at building attacks and controlling play, which he'll have to be able to do if Pirlo is expected to move higher up the pitch when we attack.
In defense of my approach, I will say this:
Pirlo, IMO, wouldnt get too tired, if he doesnt have to break his neck running back to cover the defense when and if we lose the ball during the course of an attacking move...Seedorf would be replacing him there..so he could jog back, getting into his place in time to help out the next build up/attack.
Personally, I would like Kaka to change his role. Whilst atm he plays as a part of the attacking trident, I would like to see him move into a deeper and wider role. With him playing a deeper role on one side and Seedorf on the other, we can try to solidify the defensive structure more. The aim would be to try and increase the pressure on opponents more and protect wide areas better (a weakness atm I believe).
Anyway, the team would look a bit like this...
----------Dida--------------
Cafu--Nesta-Maldini--Janku--
-------Gattuso-Pirlo---------
--Seedorf---------Kaka------
----------------Sheva-------
---------Gila----------------
Kaka and Seedorf would be given freedom to come central in attacking moves, but would be expected to play out wide too. When Janku or Cafu attack, it may be necessary for the to stay a little deeper to provide some cover. I moved Seedorf over to the right as it will allow Rino to stay more central, as Kaka is naturally more attacking than Seedorf, meaning situations may arise where the midfield may look like...
----------Rino--Pirlo
--Seedorf------------------
---------------Kaka--------
It may not seem it, but what I'm pretty much suggesting is Milan go to a formation similar to Sacchi's Milan.
Now, I was planning to move onto what I think Carlo is actually planning, but I'll leave that till next time as this post is longer than expected :D
Ok ACMILAN1983, I take your point about Kaka, but it will be very difficult to have him refrain from attacking when the wing backs press forward..he is a natural attacker, while Seedorf, though he considers himself personally also an attacking player, is a good enough ball winner to drop into the defensive third, allowing Pirlo to pivot into the attack on occasion.
I reckon Ancelotti must visit this forum as its the only place I've really found discussing Ambro being moved into defence, which he has come out today to say it won't happen Yes, and his posting name is DrMilano. :delol:
ACMILAN1983
25-07-2005, 16:20
I don't deny it that pirlo was instrumental for us. He is the best in his role with his sublime passes and control but remember he could be the weakest link when opponent breath down his neck as his defensive qualities is questionable. I believe he is irreplaceable but we might see him moved to a new foward position or replaced by vogel when a defensive steel is needed.
Much of that is true, though I believe Pirlo is defensively quite stable now and its up to other midfielders to defend too (something which is lacking at times). Point about Vogel is a good one.
Warro, I can see where your coming from about Pirlo not needing to always come back and I think this is where some of our ideas a differing. Personally, I would like to see a more protective midfield this year, meaning I want to see the players in position as fast as they can. Pirlo jogging back would be similar to how Seedorf jogged back the last couple of seasons at times, which I think damaged us more than desired.
I know its difficult to stop Kaka attacking too much, but I think its best to try and build him on his "all-round" game, as it can prove vital to adding to pressure play. I can't say I'm expecting him to stay back too much though, which is why I suggested the side also move into the Seedorf dropping a little deep and Pirlo moving slightly further to the left temporarily.
However, I do think its possible to adjust Kaka to defend a bit more as he's still young and still quite versatile. Last season he did develop his defensive abilities quite a bit and this was acknowledged a lot by the training staff, which has led me to such conclusions.
Yes, and his posting name is DrMilano. :delol:
Master of deception ;)
Warro Bantan
25-07-2005, 16:54
Good points ACMILAN1983...cant argue with you on those...I accede to your greater wisdom...
hitmannq8
25-07-2005, 17:52
You know, I was thinking the same. How on EARTH did Carlotti get the idea of moving Max to defence from? This is the only place that that has been discussed! **** GUYS THIS IS AWESOME. But does Carlotti speak English?
Hey Carlotti if ur reading this, PLEASE KICK GATTUSO OUT OF THE TEAM AND GET BALLACK
i think it is not too harsh to say ancelotti has to go if milan do not win at least one big title next season. milan got the players to win it, and most of them are versatile too. yeah i agree with the idea that pirlo's defensive quality is questionable, he lacks physical stature in defending. i would like to see seedorf or vogel in that position and move pirlo a bit forward or seedorf/vogel partnering pirlo in defensive midfield position.
how about this formation: 3-1-3-1-2
dida
stam nesta maldini
seedorf
cafu pirlo serginho
kaka
gilardino shevchenko
seedorf's main duty is to defend, so it takes off some of pirlo's defensive burden. now we are alive on the wings with cafu and serginho, but they should not forget to help the defence. With this line up, our strikers will receive plenty of quality crosses or passes from all part of the fields: centre, wings.. ancelotti is stupid if not maximising the aerial power of gilardino and vieri by locating players like: cafu,serginho or jankulovski on the wings , instead of using seedorf and gattuso on the wings!
freddydaddy7
26-07-2005, 03:46
That’s good line up Rando and the formation is pretty good but having Seedorf or Vogel at this point I ant really trust them 2 in front of the Def maybe if we could have Ambro and see how well Vogel plays there if he is capable of cuttin out all the balls and winning them back and workin 120% of his life that could work.
And then need more of Kaka and Sheva to come back and bring the ball up front Janku and Serghino are the best on the LM and they could both do pretty good there only thing is now who can cover for cafu and how long talk about it.
But will see what Milan comes up with in the next couple of weeks.
ACMILAN1983
26-07-2005, 06:37
Good points ACMILAN1983...cant argue with you on those...I accede to your greater wisdom...
errrm...thanks :confused:
ps - feel free to call me Dev
Warro Bantan
26-07-2005, 09:08
errrm...thanks :confused:
ps - feel free to call me Dev
thanks DEv...what I mean was that, though I may disagree with some of the things in your post, I cant find any fault in your logic, and as such, I dont see the point in arguing for arguments´s sake...:respect:
ACMILAN1983
26-07-2005, 09:13
thanks DEv...what I mean was that, though I may disagree with some of the things in your post, I cant find any fault in your logic, and as such, I dont see the point in arguing for arguments´s sake...:respect:
lol, thats ok, I understood what you meant, but just didn't expect at first :D
Christopher
26-07-2005, 09:40
i think it is not too harsh to say ancelotti has to go if milan do not win at least one big title next season. milan got the players to win it, and most of them are versatile too. yeah i agree with the idea that pirlo's defensive quality is questionable, he lacks physical stature in defending. i would like to see seedorf or vogel in that position and move pirlo a bit forward or seedorf/vogel partnering pirlo in defensive midfield position.
how about this formation: 3-1-3-1-2
dida
stam nesta maldini
seedorf
cafu pirlo serginho
kaka
gilardino shevchenko
seedorf's main duty is to defend, so it takes off some of pirlo's defensive burden. now we are alive on the wings with cafu and serginho, but they should not forget to help the defence. With this line up, our strikers will receive plenty of quality crosses or passes from all part of the fields: centre, wings.. ancelotti is stupid if not maximising the aerial power of gilardino and vieri by locating players like: cafu,serginho or jankulovski on the wings , instead of using seedorf and gattuso on the wings!
I don't think the placement of Seedorf plays to his strength . . . Seedorf is a guy who can feed the ball and create offense when the attack runs through him and allows him to funnel the ball forward is when he is most effective . . . . with that formation he won't have that ability . . . not to mention he does have a great shot. :musk:
yeah u might be right philly chris, i think vogel/ambrosini are the best players in DM position. i have no hesitation putting ambro there. on the wings, seedorf/jankulovski can alternate with cafu/serginho. while ruicosta can alternate with pirlo or kaka.
i think the important key is do not put pirlo on DM(defensive midfield) position by himself! he can play as DM with one player partnering him there or play as MC(midfield centre).
freddydaddy7
27-07-2005, 06:46
thats true having someone like Vogel and Ambro u missed out on Gattsuo they would be good next to him some even coverin for him but we dont wana give so much space in the middle
I cant find any fault in your logic, and as such, I dont see the point in arguing for arguments´s sake...:respect:
:star: Classy! :star:
Christopher
27-07-2005, 08:52
yeah u might be right philly chris, i think vogel/ambrosini are the best players in DM position. i have no hesitation putting ambro there. on the wings, seedorf/jankulovski can alternate with cafu/serginho. while ruicosta can alternate with pirlo or kaka.
i think the important key is do not put pirlo on DM(defensive midfield) position by himself! he can play as DM with one player partnering him there or play as MC(midfield centre).
What we are really seeking is something this team doesn't currently have . . . which is a defensive midfielder that can also move the ball forward to the attacking midfielders or even the strikers . . . . the only guy who I think could do it would be Maldini since he is tough defensively and can really move the ball. I guess Makelele (spelling) is another guy of this mold . . .
freddydaddy7
28-07-2005, 00:57
The best out the Daira of Lyon that i can think of him now that is pretty good and young and will be big time like Desilly he was remarkable when he was for milan was strong wall front of the Def
i like randos formation though i prefer to use my players
-------------------------------------dida-------------------------------------------
--------------stam----------------nesta------------------maldini--------------------
----------------------------------gattuso-----------------------------------------
------cafu-----------------------------------------------------jankulovski---------
----------------------------------pirlo--------------------------------------------
---------------------------------kaka---------------------------------------------
------------shevchenko------------------------gilardino---------------------------
What we are really seeking is something this team doesn't currently have . . . which is a defensive midfielder that can also move the ball forward to the attacking midfielders or even the strikers . . . . the only guy who I think could do it would be Maldini since he is tough defensively and can really move the ball. I guess Makelele (spelling) is another guy of this mold . . .
u also have van bommel, and emerson, vieira but i dont like him, theres also sissoko and lampard, and maybe gravesen
freddydaddy7
28-07-2005, 01:57
u also have van bommel, and emerson, vieira but i dont like him, theres also sissoko and lampard, and maybe gravesen
------------
they will never leave their clubs for now and there should be other players that would be on the look out yaa gravesen will be ok depends if they let him go
and makelele will???
i think we shouldve got sissoko when we had the chance
philly chris, i think maldini will never play as DM. mk18, putting gattuso on dm by himself is a nightmare, he is short and can not pass or cross.
i am glad that milan's formation vs chicago fire is the same as mine and gattuso is not there! i hope milan make new philosophy in the wake of istanbul defeat:
1.always play with 3 defenders and 2 strikers, play attacking football and enjoy yourselves, let your imagination run free! no fear!
2. encourage rotation by trusting all the players.
3. non italian players must not exceed half of the squad.
thats my ideal team.. hehe i am sure many people disagree with me.. i dont want to argue, i just express my idea. :pr115: :w155: :gun:
Southernsun
28-07-2005, 06:18
all i can say is.............serginho must play!
philly chris, i think maldini will never play as DM. mk18, putting gattuso on dm by himself is a nightmare, he is short and can not pass or cross.
i am glad that milan's formation vs chicago fire is the same as mine and gattuso is not there! i hope milan make new philosophy in the wake of istanbul defeat:
1.always play with 3 defenders and 2 strikers, play attacking football and enjoy yourselves, let your imagination run free! no fear!
2. encourage rotation by trusting all the players.
3. non italian players must not exceed half of the squad.
thats my ideal team.. hehe i am sure many people disagree with me.. i dont want to argue, i just express my idea. :pr115: :w155: :gun:
i don`t know if you watched the game but i did and the legendary Roy Hudson said that when gattuso came on in the second half he made a considerable differnce and was one of the reasons why we got back into the game.
you should really give credit where credit is due instead of slagging him off all the time and it wasn`t me who was talking up rino it was the commentator.
p.s if you don`t believe me then watch it yourself and you`ll see the difference he made
matnat, i believe that commentator, but for me gattuso is not good enough to be in starting eleven for a club like milan, i know u disagree about that.
he is good enough to come in as a substitute player to close down the game and give some players a rest.
seems to me milan players are a bit lazy in defending and gaining possession when gattuso is around. thats a big big mistake!
forza milan!!!
matnat, i believe that commentator, but for me gattuso is not good enough to be in starting eleven for a club like milan, i know u disagree about that.
he is good enough to come in as a substitute player to close down the game and give some players a rest.
seems to me milan players are a bit lazy in defending and gaining possession when gattuso is around. thats a big big mistake!
forza milan!!!
you could be right there rando (not about gattuso but about the team). ;)
i think the team needs to work far harder when then don`t have posession of the ball. i think its been said many times on here the way the midfielders "trot" back into position, when in actual fact they should run their asses off to get back into position.
from what ive seen of this 3-5-2 formation i aint a fan, although it is pre-season i know and we should give it a chance.
i`m never comfortable when any team play with 3 defenders because all it requires is a little pace from any of the oppostion, to run down into the channels and cause us problems.
we saw it against "the fire" and when faced with our european counterparts i`m sure they`ll expose us even more and considering how great we are at keeping clean sheets i some how think our achilles will again be the defence this year.
hitmannq8
02-08-2005, 14:45
the change will be moving Marek Jankulovski to the right..
We will be using the 3 man defence in most occasions next year. Its on acmilan.com
shevagol_7
02-08-2005, 15:33
the change will be moving Marek Jankulovski to the right..
We will be using the 3 man defence in most occasions next year. Its on acmilan.com
I don't really understand why Jankulovski needs to move to the right. Cafu can be our right winger with Jankulovski on the left. I guess it will be useful when Cafu needs a rest, otherwise I still think we are strongest with Jankulovski on the left. I like the switch to the 3-5-2. With Cafu bombing forward on the right it was pretty much 5 men in midfield. But with a designated left winger we have given our attack a new dimension. We can continue attacking in the middle through Pirlo and Kaka' as well as using the flanks with Cafu, Jankulovski, and Serginho. I guess with the 3 man midfield Seedorf will be on the bench for at least part of the season. I think he can still be effective but doesn't need to be an automatic selection. Lets hope this means Rui Costa can get a few games he proved to me in preseason that he is more than ready to contribute to the team.
My formation for next season:
-----Shevchenko------Gilardino
Jankulovski-----Kaka'--------Cafu
---------Pirlo--------Gattuso----
---Maldini-----Nesta-----Stam
--------------Dida-------------
I like our prospects! :delol:
ACMILAN1983
02-08-2005, 16:41
I'm surprised nobody mentioned Carlo's statement recently of playing Jankulovski on the right of midfield ;)
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