SERIE A Season under threat?

[Warro Bantan]

From: http://football.guardian.co.uk/breakingnews/feedstory/0,14546,-5156497,00.html

Italy's Serie A faces a summer of discontent
By James Eve
ROME, July 22 (Reuters) - Italy's long-suffering soccer fans are used to their clubs losing huge amounts of money.
Fiorentina's slide into bankruptcy, the collapse of Parma's parent company Parmalat and the financial struggles of Lazio and AS Roma showed that no club was immune.
Even the most hardened fan, however, winced when the Italian Football Federation (FIGC) got tough last week.
On Friday, Messina and newly-promoted Torino were expelled from Serie A because of the state of their finances.
For years the federation had watched clubs totter towards ruin. A new zero tolerance policy had snared its first victims and, in all, 13 clubs were expelled from the top four divisions.
On Sunday, the FIGC landed its second blow - Serie B champions Genoa were charged with match-fixing, putting at risk their place in the top flight.
While the news of Messina and Torino's debts was greeted with a kind of weary acceptance, these new charges arrived like a bolt of lightning.
Last month Genoa fans had celebrated the end of a 10-year exile from Serie A after beating Venezia 3-2 in their final match of the season.
POLICE STOPPED
The party did not last long. A few days later Venezia's general manager Giuseppe Pagliara was stopped by police as he drove away from the business headquarters of Genoa president Enrico Preziosi near Milan.
Inside the car they found a suitcase containing 250,000 euros ($304,000) - a downpayment for the transfer of Venezia defender Ruben Maldonado, according to Pagliara.
Investigation of telephone calls between Preziosi, Preziosi's son Matteo and Venezia's director general Michele Dal Cin in the run-up to the last game of the season prompted the FIGC to launch its investigation.
Eight men - all of them officials or players at Genoa and Venezia - face charges of sporting fraud and Italian football looks set for a series of legal actions that could leave the make-up of next season's Serie A in doubt well into August.
Messina and Torino made their first appeal against FIGC's decision on Thursday in front of the Italian Olympic Committee. A verdict is not expected for some days.
Should this appeal fail, they will resort to the regional and state courts in the hope of being reinstated in Serie A.
The situation could grow even more complicated if other clubs enter the legal process.
Bologna were relegated to Serie B after losing a playoff against Parma at the end of last season.
Their president, Giuseppe Gazzoni, has already promised to launch legal action to have his club readmitted to the top flight in place of Messina.
As for the fans, their patience is wearing thin.
The streets of Messina have been thronged with demonstrators demanding the readmission of their side into Serie A and promising to march on FIGC headquarters in Rome if their wishes were not granted.
In Genoa, the mood is uglier as two banners unfurled at the weekend in the city's Luigi Ferraris stadium proved.
"Serie A or there will be violence," threatened one.
"Ready for anything, right down to the last arrest," read the other.

Why cant a Serie A season start on time for once? Why is it that there always seems to be something that delays the start of the season?

For a league rated as the best in the world, this is just the sort of situation the Italian FA should be seeking to avoid. Somehow, they (including the clubs to some extent) cant seem to get it right.

If the Italian FA makes a rule, every club in breach of same tries to wiggle its way out of paying the consequences.

It is unbelievable that a club could be found to be financially unsound, be expelled from the league, yet try legal means to get reinstated..while I can see their side, I would think that their efforts should be confined to getting back into the black, as opposed to diving deeper into the red to find money to fight a court battle, that they could very well end up losing.

It is very frustrating for me to see the season´s start delayed over things such as this...last year it was tv money (I think) now its money again, but moreso those who used it to cheat (Genoa) or those who dont have enough.

What this does to Milan, and other teams fighting for European glory, is to delay the player´s conditioning and match fitness, so they face their European counterparts usually with unfit players, due to...wait for it...another delayed Serie A start.

Yet, at the risk of offending my Italian friends, is it a cultural thing, as in Brazil, where a pseudo order exists just so as to fool FIFA into thinking that there are responsible people running football, when in reality, its just a bunch of spoiled brats, trying at all costs to have their way?

Maybe the late start wont affect Milan, but as a fan of Italian football, its leaving a bad taste in my mouth... :frustrat:

[Xudong]

I guess no country is immune. In Italy, there have been too many problems accumulated from the past, I don't think this shock therapy is going to solve this problem once and for good. It could even create more new problems, as football is almost all Italian's life.

I don't care for Messina, but I will like to see Torino and Genoa stay up. I always like Torino, as for Genoa, I dont' want to see Abbiati playing lower level games.

And I would like to see Serie A back to 18 teams, or even 16. I don't mind watching fewer games of my beloved team. A season of 38 or 42 games for a team simply sucks.

[killiegradge]

The problems arise simple because being in serie A means so much to teams that they either get themselves into debt or buy themselves points.I understand that FIFA have directives to all leagues to reduce the number of teams to 18.Surely this would be the perfect opportunity to reduce the team numbers rather than promote teams in 4th or 5th place or not relegate teams.is this a reason for the delay in producing the fixtures?

[sehnsucht79]

Not just FIGC... Even UEFA and FIFA are getting stricter with their financial rules and regulations. Take Man United for instance, the governing football bodies weren't joking when they told MU that if their debt situation doesnt get any better in the next few years, MU may well be disbanded.

[mk18]

id be happy if its postponed... when the season starts id be on my flight to the US for uni (inshallah) and i need time to get channels that view milan matches... by the way... US fans, does golTV show all milan matches? if not per season how much by percent? and how much are live?

[Kui]

id be happy if its postponed... when the season starts id be on my flight to the US for uni (inshallah) and i need time to get channels that view milan matches... by the way... US fans, does golTV show all milan matches? if not per season how much by percent? and how much are live?

I cant answer that. So sorry. Be ready to see virtually no Serie A games. It cost $$$ to watch soccer here. MLS is free. They'd probably pay you to watch their games. For me I have satellite tv so I can watch whatever. Most cable providers in the US arent too big in Serie A. It is possible though but as again limited and $$.

Very good MK! Where did you decide to study??? In Massachussetts? I thought you were contemplating Canada??

[zlatanov]

I think Rai International is your best shot for Serie A games, CL games of Italian teams and Coppa Italia matches. Other than that ESPN 2, Fox Soccer Channel, golTV, Setanta Sports will give you coverage of CL, Bundesliga, Primera, and Premiership games. You can also watch French, Scotish, Argentinian, Brazilian, and in general South American soccer on those above. Most of these games, however, would be replay for precedence is given to the 4 big European championships. If you choose to have RTPi it often shows games from the Portugese League, in case you are interested.


EDIT: Sat TV is the way to go, forget about cable unless you are into watching boring American Football and Baseball games.

[Kui]

Sorry.... complete edited post is right below. :rollani:

[Kui]

The problem with many of these clubs IMO is that they follow out of date business practices. They have to get out of their "mustache pete" kind of way of running the club. Football is a big business... always has been but the financial world has changed since the 70's. When touring Italy about a year and a half ago, I was appalled at the state so many of these clubs were in. Many had no business friendly or even customer friendly business or marketing offices. The only club that did have a respectabe headquarters was yours truly AC Milan. Even then... there can be improvements with the Via Turati office.
Ideally govt should stay out of the business affairs of the clubs. However in this case as Calcio is one of the vital fibres in Italian culture, it does become important for the Italian and European govts to establish financial rules and regulation to protect the game. Clubs habitually running themselves into the red are threatening the game so in this case I think the governing bodies are doing the right thing. Of course no one wants to see any more delay to any season so it does suck.
I have nothing against any appeals process by these clubs as long as the ruling arbitrarily says that the books MUST be in order for any chance to stay in Serie A. The sacrifice from these clubs must be made and not bargained for leniency.

[Kui]

EDIT: Sat TV is the way to go, forget about cable unless you are into watching boring American Football and Baseball games.

So true. I like those sports too. But compared to Calcio. :googly:
As a student though Zlat, what are his chances of getting good access to football. If he's living on campus that could be hard to do. No??

[Kui]

I think Rai International is your best shot for Serie A games, CL games of Italian teams and Coppa Italia matches. Other than that ESPN 2, Fox Soccer Channel, golTV, Setanta Sports will give you coverage of CL, Bundesliga, Primera, and Premiership games. You can also watch French, Scotish, Argentinian, Brazilian, and in general South American soccer on those above. Most of these games, however, would be replay for precedence is given to the 4 big European championships. If you choose to have RTPi it often shows games from the Portugese League, in case you are interested.


EDIT: Sat TV is the way to go, forget about cable unless you are into watching boring American Football and Baseball games.


BTW ZLAT. I'm a bit envious knowing you are there with AC Milan in town. :scream: Get to see em practice and all??? Also at what time is the game??? You going???

[zlatanov]

So true. I like those sports too. But compared to Calcio. :googly:
As a student though Zlat, what are his chances of getting good access to football. If he's living on campus that could be hard to do. No??
If he is on campus, it would really depend on the uni policy regarding installing sat TV dishes on you window or some other "good" spot. If they don't allow it, he will probably have access to cable TV from the uni which includes ESPN 2 - good but not great for CL games, and maybe if he is lucky some other channel - not sure about the name - showing EPL games.
If off campus, th options are much better - either DirectTV or Dish Network, I would recommend the latter - they have much more international channels, and even Jordanian TV stations :).
Another option would be if he has friends living off campus. In that case even if MK18 lives on campus, several people could team up and have sat TV installed at an off campus residence. That way, you can watch games with friends and pay much less than one normally would.

[zlatanov]

BTW ZLAT. I'm a bit envious knowing you are there with AC Milan in town. :scream: Get to see em practice and all??? Also at what time is the game??? You going???
Oh, yeah. I was there for both of the practice sessions and watched them VERY carefully who was trying to sneek out between the excercises and who gave it all :delol: . The training sessions were on the Boston College Campus from 10.00 am and 6.00 pm local time. The second session was scheduled for 5.00 - this was on the official website - so I was there at 4.30 and had to wait for them bastards for more than 1.5 hours :sagrin: . Took some pix but no autographs for this is a rule of thumb I have - no sigs from entertainers but only from people with truely great achievements ... I am sure it sounds crazy but that's the way it is.
The game is from 7.00 pm local time at the Gillette Stadium in Foxborough, MA. It is about 40-50 min from where I live but I won't be going :r7: . I bought a ticket - 85 bucks including convenience charge - but late Sunday morning I just have to leave for New York. Gave my ticket to a friend of mine and that bastard will support Chelski ... go figure :sagrin: ... but I guess friend are like that :D

[Hasan Rossonero]

id be happy if its postponed... when the season starts id be on my flight to the US for uni (inshallah) and i need time to get channels that view milan matches... by the way... US fans, does golTV show all milan matches? if not per season how much by percent? and how much are live?

I really think RAI international will be perfect for Serie A games in the US. The commentary will be in Italian but hey...:sagrin:

[Hasan Rossonero]

Oh, yeah. I was there for both of the practice sessions and watched them VERY carefully who was trying to sneek out between the excercises and who gave it all :delol: . The training sessions were on the Boston College Campus from 10.00 am and 6.00 pm local time. The second session was scheduled for 5.00 - this was on the official website - so I was there at 4.30 and had to wait for them bastards for more than 1.5 hours :sagrin: . Took some pix but no autographs for this is a rule of thumb I have - no sigs from entertainers but only from people with truely great achievements ... I am sure it sounds crazy but that's the way it is.
The game is from 7.00 pm local time at the Gillette Stadium in Foxborough, MA. It is about 40-50 min from where I live but I won't be going :r7: . I bought a ticket - 85 bucks including convenience charge - but late Sunday morning I just have to leave for New York. Gave my ticket to a friend of mine and that bastard will support Chelski ... go figure :sagrin: ... but I guess friend are like that :D

lucky guy...but not so lucky with the game itself :D

How did Vieri look?

[Kui]

Oh, yeah. I was there for both of the practice sessions and watched them VERY carefully who was trying to sneek out between the excercises and who gave it all :delol: . The training sessions were on the Boston College Campus from 10.00 am and 6.00 pm local time. The second session was scheduled for 5.00 - this was on the official website - so I was there at 4.30 and had to wait for them bastards for more than 1.5 hours :sagrin: . Took some pix but no autographs for this is a rule of thumb I have - no sigs from entertainers but only from people with truely great achievements ... I am sure it sounds crazy but that's the way it is.
The game is from 7.00 pm local time at the Gillette Stadium in Foxborough, MA. It is about 40-50 min from where I live but I won't be going :r7: . I bought a ticket - 85 bucks including convenience charge - but late Sunday morning I just have to leave for New York. Gave my ticket to a friend of mine and that bastard will support Chelski ... go figure :sagrin: ... but I guess friend are like that :D

I figured you'd be there you lucky b@stard! Bro you now have the burden to be the on site analysis for us at Milanmania. Shoot us up my man! A new thread would be cool if youre up to the task. Many Thanks!

[zlatanov]

As it turned out, I didn't miss that much of a game on Sunday. In fact, from the very beginning, I wasn't too excited about watching Milan so early in the prep season and would have prefered them coming to Boston for some serious games with a full-strength squad but ...
I must say, however, that I thoroughly enjoyed watching them train and especially liked those 8 vs 8 games they often finish the sessions with. Vieri, unlike in the game vs Chelski, played very well in that training game during the morning session and scored 2-3 goals for his team. In the evening session, however, he looked a bit out of sorts and missed a couple of sitters but it is still very early into the new season so I forgave him immediately :grinser:.
From the other players, I was very impressed by Ele, Cafu, Rui Costa, and Seedorf. Ele even lead part of the warm ups in the morning training and counted 1-2-3 in Greek. The rest of course made fun of him :rone:
Marzoratti and Vogel also did pretty well with the latter scoring a screamer in Fiori's goal during the morning game. I must say that Simic does the excersices with lots of enthusiasm, something I didn't expect to see from a player, who rarely gets a chance to play. In the 8 vs 8 game, however, the Croatian was easily the worst player on the pitch, along with rusty Gattuso that is :grinser: Carlo also scolded Simic on one occasion for not being positioned well during a Pirlo cross but apart from that he did well in defence ... trust me, you don't wanna know how he did attacking on the right flank :diablo:
All in all, there was a lot of enthusiasm in the group and, apart from Billy, who seemed to be a bit too relaxed and "slacking", all of them put in a lot of effort in the training. All of them looked quite friendly and were joking with each other all the time. Just before the evening session, Rui was on his way to the dressing rooms to get ready for training when he was surrounded by a bunch of children, and not only, for pix and autographs. The guy spent like 5-10 min satisfying all requests - pretty nice and down-to-earth guy, I must say.

EDIT: I know lots of BS has been said about Seedorf but he was one of the best throughout the training and is easily the most capable of all Milan players with the ball in his feet - even more so than Rui and Pirlo. You should see him juggling with the ball, very impressive indeed.
His shots are very accurate too, unlike what he showed in some games last season. After the evening session, Clarence satyed with Fiori and practiced shooting from 25 meters or so - his shots had deadly accuracy and extreme power. I know some may find it hard to believe but he is probably the best shooter in the whole team ... maybe he gets a bit too nerveous during games and this affects his shots, but Ancelotti and Vecchi didn't chose him by chance to practice shots with Fiori.

[Warro Bantan]

Thanks for the info Zlat....it is nice to know so much about our team...how lucky you are!!

Glad to see that Rui Costa is a gentleman, he is one of my favourite players....

[10]

Seedorf's shooting ability has been known to man since serveral years! Too bad he's freaking invisible so often... :(

[Warro Bantan]

From:http://skysports.planetfootball.com/list.asp?hlid=294394&lid=2&cpid=21&title=Italians+in+a+right+Mess&channel=football_home

Messina have suffered a major blow in their bid to play in Serie A next season, with the news that their appeal to the Italian Olympic Committee Council (CONI) has been rejected.

The Italian Football Federation ask every club to prove that their finances are on a sound basis before the start of each season, and the failure of Messina to do so means that they face being rejected from Italy's top flight after finishing seventh last season.

Club president Pietro Franza thought he had solved the problem after he presented documents showing that Messina had seemingly cleared their economical situation.

However, the CONI have refused the appeal, meaning Messina must now take the further option of appealing to Lazio's regional court. In the case of another negative response, the club would then have to turn to the State Council as a last resort to retain their Serie A status.

Fellow Italians Bologna will be monitoring the situation closer than most, as they are most likely to be reinstated to the top division after losing their relegation play-off against Parma.

:5guitar: Another one bites the dust, yeah, another one bites the dust, hey, I´m gonna get you too, another one bits the dust... :5guitar:

Sorry to see Messina looking down and out for the count...but that must have been their problem, their poor "accounting"..

[killiegradge]

Genoa have been demoted to Serie C1 instead of gaining the automatic promotion to Serie A that they thought they had gained!Whilst the club deserve all they get it must be hugely dissapointing for the supporters who presumeably played no part in the match fixing!They do have the right to appeal which they will probably take up and that could lead to further delays in the fixture list being published.Any more news on Torino?

[Lombardia]

sop atm serie a has just 17 teams ready for the new season, i hope they see sense and make it back to an 18 team league.

[Warro Bantan]

From http://football.guardian.co.uk/breakingnews/feedstory/0,14546,-5170710,00.html

Italy's conspiracies not just a theory
By Simon Evans
MILAN, July 27 (Reuters) - There is a simple reason why people in Italian football are so quick to talk of conspiracies, plots and match-fixing -- in Italy they really happen.

The latest proof of the murky underbelly of Italian football came on Wednesday when newly-promoted Genoa were demoted from Serie A to the third division after the Italian Football League found evidence of match-fixing.
The League's disciplinary commission investigated a 250,000 euro ($301,700) payment from Genoa to their opponents Venezia before the final Serie B game of the season and said telephone taps showed it was aimed at "guaranteeing" the result.

It is by no means the first time that a team has been punished for involvement in illicit payments or attempts to arrange matches.
:eek: AC Milan :moan: and Lazio were both demoted to Serie B in 1980 over a bribery scam. The same year, international striker Paolo Rossi was among 20 players suspended for fixing games.

Rossi was given a three-year ban, later reduced to two. He resumed playing just before the 1982 World Cup and finished as top scorer as he helped Italy to win the tournament.

In all those cases it was revenue from gambling that inspired the players to cheat and that problem has never gone away.
Last year six players from the top two divisions were banned in gambling-related match-fixing.

Serie B club Modena were punished and defender Stefano Bettarini then with Sampdoria and who played once for Italy, received a five-month ban and his club was fined.

Giuseppe Papadopulo, who was coach of Serie A club Siena, was banned for five months and the club's defender Roberto D'Avera was given six months after the uncovering of a Naples based illegal gambling racket.

BRIBE EXPOSED
The Genoa case is unusual in that a bribe to help gain promotion was exposed. While there is no shortage of suspicion and finger pointing about match-fixing in Italy, rarely has action been taken on non-gambling related allegations.

In May, the dull goalless draw in the derby between AS Roma and Lazio was played out to chants of "You've all agreed it" while the capital's main newspaper Il Messaggero branded the match "the derby of shame" and Corriere dello Sport described the match as "squalid". There was no suggestion that money had changed hands in relation to the derby -- merely that the point was useful to both sides then struggling to keep out of the relegation zone.

The common perception in Italy is that corruption is much more rife in the lower divisions -- a view that was given some credibility by an account in the book 'The Miracle of Castel Di Sangro' written by American Joe McGinniss.
Castel Di Sangro, the club from a town with a population of just 5,000, had risen from the lower leagues to Serie B but at the end of their first campaign in the second division, McGinniss overheard a conversation between players ahead of an end of season trip to Bari.

The players discussed the details of how they were to lose the game -- and then the next day they lost in exactly the fashion discussed.
But there was no investigation into the match.

In August 1999, Italians were given another taste of corruption from an un-named player who wrote a letter of confession to the popular weekly magazine Famiglia Cristiana.

"Dear Father...I am a footballer and I have sold myself in an important match," read the letter.
"I have behaved in a way which has harmed my team because I was tempted by promises of a great contract...I know I have distorted the championship, but who will forgive me for what I've done?"
"These and other things go on in the world of football," the letter read. "The flow of money has killed everything and I have become a victim."


Wow...and I thought we went down in 80 because of purely football reasons....:depress:

[zlatanov]

From http://football.guardian.co.uk/breakingnews/feedstory/0,14546,-5170710,00.html

Wow...and I thought we went down in 80 because of purely football reasons....:depress:
Bribing and match fixing ARE "purely football reasons" in Italian football :smileani: :devf: :grinser:

[sehnsucht79]

Lol

this is all getting too confusing; im losing track of it

So genoa's demoted and I heard that bologna somehow managed to be reinstated to serie a?

[Warro Bantan]

That may very well be the case sehnucht79....

[meazza]

The problem is, and I'm sorry to say this, is Italy is one of the most corrupt western societies.

I don't know how they get off with half the things they do.

[sehnsucht79]

True

I think the clubs are still appealing to the FIGC; and Serie A will still be a 20 team league; only the problem now is to determine who the other 3 teams will be.

[Warro Bantan]

Can anyone tell me why we went to 20 teams? Is this a UEFA dictate or something? I dont recall other leagues having that many teams...

[Hasan Rossonero]

Can anyone tell me why we went to 20 teams? Is this a UEFA dictate or something? I dont recall other leagues having that many teams...

actually La Liga and the prem have had 20 teams for quite some time.

[killiegradge]

I see that Messina will be in Serie A next season but can anyone actually name the 20 teams who will play in Seria A?