Italian League Struggling Behind Spanish and English?

[Marco3]

I just want to know everyone's views on the current state of the Italian League.
In the late 80's and the 90's the Italian League were able to attract the biggest names in World foootball, now however it seems to be more difficult.
In recent months Galliani has stated that Italian football is in danger of being left behind by the Spanish and English teams. This is due to many restrictions imposed on Italian football which don't apply in the other 2 leagues.
Some of the reasons given were:

The non EU member rule.
In Italy, a club may only sign one non EU member a year. This doesn't appear to be the case in Spain. And they are currently picking up the best young Argentinian talents. Messi, Auguero, Saviola, in recent years.

Under 17 full time contract:
In Italy, a club cannot offer a player a full time contract until they are 17. This is also the case in Spain but not in England which has helped them get players like Fabregas, Rossi, Lupoli, Dalla Bona to name but a few.

TV Revenue/Sponsorship:
For some reason (I can only immagine it to be linked with all the scandals in Italian football), Italian clubs do not receive the same revenue in comparrison to English and Spanish teams. When it comes to marketing Spanish teams (Barcelona, Real Madrid) are miles ahead of the rest.
The Deloitte Football Money League shows the total revenue of the world’s Top 20 clubs is now over €3.3 billion with Real Madrid ahead of the competition with total revenue of £202 million (€ 292 million).
And the report shows Spain has the two biggest football clubs in the world based on revenue, with Barcelona joining their Spanish rivals in the top two. England has eight clubs in top 20. Italian clubs four positions.

I remember recently that (I think it was Barcelona) were being lined up for a Sponsorship renewal and were being offered 150m, when the same sponsors were looking at Milan I believe it was 100m. (This may have just been the press though).

Calcipoli:
This has affected how attractive it is for players to sign for Italian teams. Why would a player want to play in a league which is deemed as dishonest. I don't believe the punishments were fair either as I think in Juventus' case that only Moggi should have been banned. I don't believe players like Buffon, Canavaro, Zambrotta, Del Piero who give 100% week in week out and win the World Cup, would be happy playing knowing they were getting assistance.
With Juventus being demoted (an act I did not agree with) the Italian league was instantly weakened. I know that a lot of people were not happy with Inter winning the league, and maybe if Milan, Lazio and Fiorentina had not had the points deducted they may have been able to play with more tranquility and push Inter all the way. I will only say congratulations to Inter, hopefully next season will be different.
Consequently Italy lost some of its best players, Canavaro, Zambrotta, Shevchenko and again the English and Spanish leagues benefited. I know that Milan finished winning the Champions League an achievement not to be underestimated, but there were 3 English teams in the semi finals. Roma always promise much and deliver little, while Inter fans seem to work well to try and get their team chucked out when the team themselves aren't fighting.
I am very glad Juventus are back next year and so far am impressed with their transfer targets and campaign.

Governments owning Stadiums:
All the Italian teams lose revenue as they pay the governemt to rent the stadiums. However, the government don't actually seem to do anything for their money. After the recent riots, many stadiums were closed until they met with certain safety criteria. Turnstiles were needed at the San Siro for games to be played. So the government shut the stadiums down which they owned yet the clubs were responsible for getting the safety features installed. Why?

Currently Man Utd have spent £50m and got 3 very good players.
Barcelona have bought a very good player in Henry and look set to win the race for Chivu.
I agree with Milan's transfer policy by buying the established players as we have won 2 Champions Leagues in 5 seasons. More then any other club, but I do feel it is also time to start planning for the future and integrating younger players into the team before a massive over haul is required.
Milan on the other hand (and I know we shouldn't trust anything until September 1st) state that they will try and rejuvinate the squad, and make a big signing for the fans and then they win the Champions League and there is no need to make big signings, or that they are difficult to make.
So far of the Italian teams only Juventus have had an impressive transfer campaign. Players still state how much they would love to play for them.
Inter have only got Suazo and he may not be able to play for 6 months because of signing a contract before terms had been agreed between the 2 clubs.

We may be World Champions and European Champions, but I believe Italian football is facing a very difficult time. I know that everything has its cycle and it will come back round to a time when Italy is as dominant in the transfer market as it is in the Competitions, but do the rules need to be changed to be in line with the other Leagues?
Should UEFA standardise all rules to suit all leagues in Europe?
Should the FIGC and the Italian government set rules to improve stadium facilites, and come up with rules to punish clubs found to be operating illegally, and actually impose the fines consistantly?
I think this should definately happen. It may affect clubs short term but I believe it will strengthen the Italian League, long term.

I love football, I love AC Milan, I love the Italian national team, and I love Serie A. I am worried that shortly we will not be as competitive as the other leagues which could have a damaging long term affect on all Italian clubs.

What is the answer? Do the big Italian teams have to go out and spend big to compete and show their intention.
Or do they need to start taking the risk on younger less established players with huge potential, such as Kaka?
Do they need to push for similar rules to other leagues?

What are your views on this?

Many thanks
Marco


Forza Milan. Forza Italia

[mzk57]

My point of view is that MAN we have other things to do as well apart from reading this not stop MASSIVE post :grinser:
don't mind, just joking ;)

Very simpy Italy is the World Champion and AC Milan is the Europeon Champion, so what elso could be done to show the dominance????? :devf:

Let Barca have Henry and Chivu, Let Chelsea have the big names, Let Man Utd, Arsenal, Liverpool, Bayern, Madrid, Valencia, Lyon etc do what ever they could do but at the end of the day there will be only 1 champion and its

:p283: AC Milan :3band:

followed by Juve :tong: and :5inter:

[mzk57]

Italian league doesn't get the publicity like EPL & La Liga but it doesn't mean that its behind EPL & La Liga. Let them have all the publicity and over ratings, what Serie-A would do is ON the football field i.e winning the CL :5ok:
ACM is the best ;)
Inter is getting stronger and stronger :)
Roma & Lazio r not that bad :bri:
Fiorentina is also OK & soon we will have the OLD LADY back :mex:

So English and Spanish teams have no chance of Europeon glory :p283: in coming years.

[hany.Egypt]

Should UEFA standardise all rules to suit all leagues in Europe?
forget the UEFA it has nothing to do with that, its an Italian problem and only Italy can solve it.
Should the FIGC and the Italian government set rules to improve stadium facilites, and come up with rules to punish clubs found to be operating illegally, and actually impose the fines consistantly?
I think not should but must set new rules, especially for taxes as I see it the main problem, and for the staduim being owned by the government, its the clubs problem, and they should start thinking about it(I heard that Milan will build a new staduim, dont know wheather it right or wrong?),but in the same time these new staduims must not be build on the clubs expenses, but on the expense of sponsors (just like what Arsenal has done) .
for sponsorship and TV revenues, hmmmmmm its seems sth that noone can do any thing about it,TV Revenues increases by the increase of f the demand on the Italain championship,so clubs' popularity is the main factor here, and for some reasons, it seems that English and Spanish teams are more popular, and winning big trophies like WC CL doesnt change the situation a lot.
And for the non EU member rule, I think spain also suffers of that while England faces another problem which is the work permtion so we are all equal in this point

[marcovb]

Galliani had an interview in Gazzetta

http://www.acmilan.com/NewsDetail.aspx?idNews=48791

He sais that the main problem is that it is a different fiscality in Italia ,Spain and England

Italian clubs can't pay big salaries to certain players
For example Milan wouldn't have no problem in paying 20-25 mil euro for Henry
But they couldn't pay his salary

For henry's salary Barcelona pays less than 15 mil
Milan would have paid 20 mil

There is a risk that italian clubs to become less competitive if they don't make any changes

In the next few years italian footbal should try to restructure and to change
certain rules and laws
This should be a period of regeneration

[Stezagud]

Another problem for Italy is that teams negotiate seperate tv deals. This isnt such a problem for the big teams but it does make things very difficult for the smaller sides. In The Premiership the TV deal is collective and that puts the league in a far stronger position when negotiating. The most recent deal was so huge that the team that comes 20th next year will be recieving the same prize money as the team that came 1st last year! :eek:

[Tony29.]

If i'm not wrong TV deals will be collective in Italy also (from this year)

[marcovb]

And Galliani consider that also a problem

Because italian big clubs will earn less money than they did until now and the difference will be spread to smaller clubs

So the italian league will be more competitive but when it comes to transfer market the main italian teams will not be as powerful as they were

[Samuca]

Premiership and La Liga have more marketing, that´s why they seems to be better

Calcio is the only league with some rich teams (Milan, Juventus and Internazionale), have a strong culture to play football (defense), make own amazing players (Totti, Cannavaro, Zambrotta, Maldini...) and have a big space to foreign players, even who is from outside of Europe (Kaká, Zannetti, Samuel, Cambiasso, Cafú, Serginho...)

Before Calciopolli, Italy had Kaká, Shevchenko, Nedved, Del Piero, Seedorf, Pirlo, Gattuso, Cambiasso, Zannetti, Samuel, Vieira, Grosso, Zambrotta, Dida, Cafú, Serginho, Buffon, Figo, Maldini, Cannavaro, Nesta, Totti, etc

Quite better than Leagues with billion euros stars like Ronaldinho, Robinho, Fabregas, Henry, etc

[Nordahl]

Serie A has to change ways, adapt itself to the current framework of football market, unfortunatelly marketing is almost everything nowadays.

[Hasan Rossonero]

Few points:

1) Spain's way of doing business is horrible. Real and Barca are the only ones that make money. Look at Valencia?? They don't have the same financial clout. In Spain TV rights are negotiated individually.

2) TV rights will be collective in Italy this year and with Genoa, Napoli, Fiorentina, Lazio, Juve, Milan, Roma, etc. God willing the collective tv rights deal will be very lucrative.

3) Stadiums are a big problem, but Melandri wants to give ownership to clubs to take responsibility of upkeep and to boost revenues. Don't know if and when this will pass.

4) England and Italy have almost the same tax rates.

5) Galliani loves to play the card of a pessimist. When things turn out well he can look good. Do you know that the highest paid player in Serie A (Ibra) earns only 1.5 million euros less than the highest paid player in La Liga (Ronaldinho)??

6) English football is ahead of both Italy and Spain in sponsorship. However, Milan gets a huge chunk of revenue from the Far East market as does Inter.

7) Brazilians and Argentineans seldom play in England. Also, England has very tough laws on how many times you have to represent your country etc. before you can play in the prem.

8) One big advantage Italy has is a history of patronage. Berlu, Moratti, Fiat bankroll their teams which can allow flexing of the transfer muscle.

---

In conclusion I will say that there are a lot of positives. With TV revenue spread out evenly in the next few years, it will be a more competitive league. Also, having less foreign talent is also a good thing for local talent to develop. Furthermore, let's not forget that Spanish and English talent is slowly starting to disappear. Their national teams, frankly, are sub-par.

It all depends on how you look at things. The fiscal excuse is being made by Galliani only because his mentor Berlu lost the election to Prodi. Italian teams now have to realize that football is not about a few teams laying claim to all the resources, or turning a blind eye to dilapidated stadiums.

The most important thing for Italy going forward is for the clubs to get ownership of the stadiums.

The Italian league is also the 2nd highest revenue generating league behind the Prem (yes ahead of La Liga).

In short, England seems to have the best model of financing. Spain seems to have 2 rich clubs and the rest not so wealthy. Italy seems to have 3 rich clubs, and the rest are struggling. Give the collective TV rights things time, and things will improve.

[devoted_dm]

The one massive advantage that Italy has is its domestic, home grown players. This cannot be underestimated, cause while there are world class players from England and Spain as well, there aren't as many as from Italy, making Serie A somewhat less reliant on importing players from abroad.

[marcovb]

Few points:


4) England and Italy have almost the same tax rates.

5) Galliani loves to play the card of a pessimist. When things turn out well he can look good. Do you know that the highest paid player in Serie A (Ibra) earns only 1.5 million euros less than the highest paid player in La Liga (Ronaldinho)??




Almost the same tax rates
Which one is higher?

Ibra earns ONLY(?) 1.5 mil. euro less than Ronaldinho

If an italian team wants to buy him he will come to earn less money?

This system with only 2 reach teams is working for Spain
Barcelona and Real can pay higher wages and they can afford to spend more money for transfers

This system should have worked for Italia too

[Hasan Rossonero]

Almost the same tax rates
Which one is higher?

Ibra earns ONLY(?) 1.5 mil. euro less than Ronaldinho

If an italian team wants to buy him he will come to earn less money?

This system with only 2 reach teams is working for Spain
Barcelona and Real can pay higher wages and they can afford to spend more money for transfers

This system should have worked for Italia too

England-40%
Italy- 50%

Some publications say (Guardian) that the tax rate is 50% in England.

The system where 2 rich teams pay for transfers is not working for Spain; it's working for Barca and Real. That's not a competitive league.

I don't want a lopsided three horse race in Serie A.

Ibra earns 6.5 million euros net.
Ronaldinho earns 8 million euros net.

These numbers were on Gazzetta and other publications.

[marcovb]

Ibra earns 6.5 million euros net.
Ronaldinho earns 8 million euros net.

These numbers were on Gazzetta and other publications.


OK
There is a difference of 1,5 mil (1,5 mil/season)
and it is a significant amount of money

In this moment the richest teams from Italia are finding very hard to cross that limit (6,5 mil)

That's what Galliani said and i'm not sure he is exaggerating

[Hasan Rossonero]

OK
There is a difference of 1,5 mil (1,5 mil/season)
and it is a significant amount of money

In this moment the richest teams from Italia are finding very hard to cross that limit (6,5 mil)

That's what Galliani said and i'm not sure he is exaggerating

Ronaldinho is a massive star compared to Ibra. One player doesn't indicate anything. Moratti is willing to pay Chivu better than Barca are. Many players are very well paid in Serie A. IMO, Ibra should earn a lot less than Ronaldinho.

Ronaldinho is one person. Guys like Messi only earn 4 million euros. Henry's contract is also not worth 10 million; it's worth 6. It has been confirmed by various sources. I think 10 million was just Galliani lying really. Henry wanted Barcelona and they had been after him for a long time. That made the difference.

[marcovb]

Ronaldinho is a massive star compared to Ibra. One player doesn't indicate anything. Moratti is willing to pay Chivu better than Barca are. Many players are very well paid in Serie A. IMO, Ibra should earn a lot less than Ronaldinho.

Ronaldinho is one person. Guys like Messi only earn 4 million euros. Henry's contract is also not worth 10 million; it's worth 6. It has been confirmed by various sources. I think 10 million was just Galliani lying really. Henry wanted Barcelona and they had been after him for a long time. That made the difference.

Ronaldinho is a big star and he worth a lot of money...OK
It's difficult to compete with spanish clubs(in transfer market) because players like Ronaldinho, Eto, worth 6,7, 8 mil euro and they won't come for less money
For example if a spanish club would offer a salary of 8 mil to Ibra, Inter would have big problems to keep him
Another example is the one that Galliani said it
Henry worth 10 (maybe 6) mil NET but the difference is made by tax rate
For Henry to take this money Barcelona spends 10-15 mil(6-10mil)/season (player wage + taxes)
An italian club would have paid 15-20 mil(10-15mil)/season
Thats why spanish clubs can offer more money for players wages

I don't know if this are correct numbers(thats what Galliani said) but the DIFFERENCE EXISTS and it is an important one

[Hasan Rossonero]

Ronaldinho is a big star and he worth a lot of money...OK
It's difficult to compete with spanish clubs(in transfer market) because players like Ronaldinho, Eto, worth 6,7, 8 mil euro and they won't come for less money
For example if a spanish club would offer a salary of 8 mil to Ibra, Inter would have big problems to keep him
Another example is the one that Galliani said it
Henry worth 10 (maybe 6) mil NET but the difference is made by tax rate
For Henry to take this money Barcelona spends 10-15 mil(6-10mil)/season (player wage + taxes)
An italian club would have paid 15-20 mil(10-15mil)/season
Thats why spanish clubs can offer more money for players wages

I don't know if this are correct numbers(thats what Galliani said) but the DIFFERENCE EXISTS and it is an important one

The difference exists, but it's not as bad as you're making it seem. The prices Galliani was talking about was net.

From that perspective English clubs are also in trouble: tax laws, work permits etc.

The big clubs in Italy have rich owners, but they should also work on having a balanced portfolio to generate revenue.

Eto'o current makes 6 million euros. Sheva almost made 6.5 when he left. So even Barca don't pay ALL their stars that much. Neither do Real.

[marcovb]

The difference exists, but it's not as bad as you're making it seem. The prices Galliani was talking about was net.

From that perspective English clubs are also in trouble: tax laws, work permits etc.

The big clubs in Italy have rich owners, but they should also work on having a balanced portfolio to generate revenue.

Eto'o current makes 6 million euros. Sheva almost made 6.5 when he left. So even Barca don't pay ALL their stars that much. Neither do Real.



Maybe the difference is not that bad for one season
but whe you offer a deal for 3, 4 or 5 years to a player like Eto(for example)you will see that it is a lot of money

If they want to buy Eto they will have to offer him 6'5 -7 mil euro/season
For that an italian club will probably have to pay more than 10 mil/season
In 4 years it means 40-50mil for one player

And it is the same situation with players (big players) that are playing outside Italia and Spain (like Henry)
When they have to choose between an italian and a spanish club they choose the team that offers more money

[Hasan Rossonero]

If Milan wanted to buy Henry and pay him 6 million a season (which I imagine they were probably willing to do), then they would.

[Stezagud]

If Milan wanted to buy Henry and pay him 6 million a season (which I imagine they were probably willing to do), then they would.


very true, Galliani was playing his usual game when he said what he said and i am surprised so many people believed it. The simple fact is Henry chose to go to Barca, he has said it enough times recently and the fact is they chased him for 4 years! it was not a spur of the moment decision, if Arsenal hadnt made the CL final last year he'd have gone then.

[marcovb]

It's not the first time when Galliani sais that italian clubs are disadvantaged by the different tax rate
He said it many times before
but probably every time he said it he was playing his usual game

[Hasan Rossonero]

Man Utd chief dismisses debt worries

Manchester United chief executive David Gill is adamant the Red Devils are in good shape even though they had to a plan to refinance their massive debts earlier this year.

Experts acting on behalf of the Glazer family looked into the possibility of restructuring borrowings which are believed to be in the region of £660million, in order to reduce an eye-bulging annual interest payment of £62million.

The move was thwarted when the cost of borrowing rose, forcing United to stick with their present financial structures.

However, Gill was keen to point out that the move was instigated purely because of advantageous conditions in the debt market at that time rather than any urgent need for financial flexibility.

Opponents of the Glazer regime have consistently attacked the Americans for landing United in so much debt and have repeated challenged the owners to outline exactly how they intend to make the payments.

However, United are currently enjoying a huge uplift in revenue, due partly to the club's renewed on-field success under Sir Alex Ferguson but also because of increased sponsorship, including a four-year shirt deal with banking giant AIG worth £56.5million.

In addition, a new TV deal comes into force this season, which saw a 67% increase on domestic rights alone.

Little wonder therefore that Gill is so bullish about United's current position.

'There is no issue whatsoever,'' he argued.

'The financial structure we have in place at the moment is a long-term structure.

'Given where the debt market was two or three months ago, we looked at the opportunity of improving those financial structures to get the costs down a bit more.

'There was some turbulence in the debt market which meant the refinancing has not gone through. But I stress, it was an opportunity as opposed to having a requirement to do it.

'The club is in good shape financially this year and 2007 will see significant increases in revenue and profits. '

---

soccernet

[Maldini+Nesta]

No Man Utd stuff on here. My doctor said it isn't good
for my health. :5ok:

Sorry, I'm a Gooner too.


Concering, Serie A, if they modernized the stadiums and
squashed the racism+violence from the ultras. I know Serie A would
be competing once again for top league honors.

Come on, great weather, awesome food, interesting culture, and fine
calcio!

[Jasper]

Uefa article (http://www.uefa.com/magazine/news/kind=4/newsid=562631.html)

[Stezagud]

That in itself is nothing new Hasan, Utds profits are as strong as ever and the club remains the best run in the world.

The big issue isnt the debt alone but the debt when the Glazers are taken into account. They didnt buy the club out of love for Utd in particular or even love of the game in general, they bought the club because of its profitabilty. The fear for Utd fans is that if they decide they arent making enough money from the investment they might cut and run, trying to make a quick profit on their way out by selling off Old Trafford or a few of Utds crown jewels, Ron, Roon, Rio and co :eek:

No Man Utd stuff on here. My doctor said it isn't good
for my health.

Sorry, I'm a Gooner too.

If Kroenke takes over Arsenal he will be financing that the same way the Glazers did, which on top of the stadium repayments for the Emirates will make Arsenal the club most in debt, eclipsing even Utds repayments :eek:

You should pay attention to the article as it may well be veryv relevant to your beloved goonies too ;)

[Hasan Rossonero]

That in itself is nothing new Hasan, Utds profits are as strong as ever and the club remains the best run in the world.

The big issue isnt the debt alone but the debt when the Glazers are taken into account. They didnt buy the club out of love for Utd in particular or even love of the game in general, they bought the club because of its profitabilty. The fear for Utd fans is that if they decide they arent making enough money from the investment they might cut and run, trying to make a quick profit on their way out by selling off Old Trafford or a few of Utds crown jewels, Ron, Roon, Rio and co :eek:



If Kroenke takes over Arsenal he will be financing that the same way the Glazers did, which on top of the stadium repayments for the Emirates will make Arsenal the club most in debt, eclipsing even Utds repayments :eek:

You should pay attention to the article as it may well be veryv relevant to your beloved goonies too ;)

Yeah, I've known about United's debt, but I didn't know it was that high!

To tell you the truth, takeovers like these are always worrying, and hence why some United fans were so against it.

[Maldini+Nesta]

If Kroenke takes over Arsenal he will be financing that the same way the Glazers did, which on top of the stadium repayments for the Emirates will make Arsenal the club most in debt, eclipsing even Utds repayments :eek:You should pay attention to the article as it may well be veryv relevant to your beloved goonies too ;)
I know all about it. I post on many boards and read tons of footie info. I feel bad for the Utd supporters and any football supporter who is viewed as a consumer not a passionate fan.

I recently heard that the English Formula 1 exec....much richer than Kroenke is also interested in Arsenal. All of it is very nerve-wracking.