View Full Version : Which trophy do you want the most?
Next season is going to be one hectic year for Milan - in 6 competitions and it would be a dream come true for all Rossoneri fans if we won all 6 cups.
However if you had to choose the one cup out of all of the following, which would it be:
Intercontinental Cup
UEFA CL
Scudetto
Coppa Italia
Italian Super Cup
or UEFA Super Cup?
I would have to go with the WCC, its one trophy I have never seen them lift and it would just be great.
Mods: Once before I done a poll and im nto sure to do it, could you please help?
zlatanov
10-07-2007, 11:11
poll added.
We are not playing for the Italian Super Cup this year though - it will be between Roma and Inter.
Maltese Charlie
10-07-2007, 11:24
Without any doubt
COPPA ITALIA!!!!!! :grinser: :grinser: :grinser:
CL and the scudetto are >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> intercontinental cup
But since it's the only trophy Gattuso, Nesta, Pirlo, Kaka ( he lacks a coppa italia also) didn't win it should be won.
Still, if it's only one to chose, then CL and scudetto should be much more important than the Toyota cup or Coppa Italia & Euro super cup
King tiger
10-07-2007, 11:34
Without any doubt
COPPA ITALIA!!!!!! :grinser: :grinser: :grinser:
wooooow slow down dude, we're not a big club like Inter, lets try wining the CL first :D
zlatanov
10-07-2007, 11:39
that's what Materrazzi had to say on the issue:
"the Cup for Inter, The scudetto for Milan":
http://www.tuttomercatoweb.com/index.php?action=read&id=66777
no argument there, if you ask me :D
p.s. the guy is dreaming of another cup, not the one his team has a life-long subscription to, but we all know how that will end for them - Inter starting a brawl with Sevilla and then out of UEFA comp. for 5 years :diablo:
Without any doubt
COPPA ITALIA!!!!!! :grinser: :grinser: :grinser:
Please don't be so greedy, dude. At least leave something for our cousin :5inter:
Maltese Charlie
10-07-2007, 12:01
wooooow slow down dude, we're not a big club like Inter, lets try wining the CL first :D
OH yes, you are right, may be we need another 5 years so that the team will gel together, untill we will be able to win it. :grinser: :grinser:
poll added.
We are not playing for the Italian Super Cup this year though - it will be between Roma and Inter.
lol my bad I got confused.
Tony you have a good point - However imagine bragging to Inter fans about being the King of the world rather than the kings of Italy or Europe.
This year I want Scudetto so baaad ! :diablo:
ROSSONERO_PR
11-07-2007, 11:39
CH.L. Trophy & Scudetto with Ronaldinho as a MILAN Player :grinser:
I want everything, my first choise is Scudetto but you can never say no to CL.
CL on first place, than scudetto or coppa italia
Winning UCL again would be good achievement (though would be good to have more siginings Maybe?), lo Scudetto in second place - though we really should have 'earned' that a while ago.
scudetto is imo alot more important than CL, it requires good games over whole year, not just in the final rounds... and for a change i would like to see a strong milan whole season long.
Warro Bantan
17-07-2007, 11:50
I would go for the UCL everytime...the scudetto is a close second though...
Warro Bantan
17-07-2007, 11:53
I think I voted for the scudetto by mistake....:stupid:
zlatanov
17-07-2007, 12:32
I think I voted for the scudetto by mistake....:stupid:
no you didn't - I just changed the results :D
Maltese Charlie
17-07-2007, 12:34
Zlatanov, can I vote for the "Berlusconi Cup"? :grinser:
Warro Bantan
17-07-2007, 12:35
Muchas gracias seņor! :mex:
zlatanov
17-07-2007, 12:41
Zlatanov, can I vote for the "Berlusconi Cup"? :grinser:
no - that one belongs in a poll at a Juve forum ... just like the TIM trophy belongs somewhere else too :D
It's about time we won the league again!
Though it's hard denying Ronaldo & Co a CL victory. They'll just have to make it a double then :D
Mine:
(Eurosuper+interconti+coppa)*2=scudetto
Eurosuper+interconti+coppa+scudetto=cl
No other trophy on the planet is more romantic than the UEFA Champions League. So my vote is defintely with the CL. In all honesty, weren't tears of joy rolling down your face as Inzaghi rolled in goal number 2 against Liverpool ? :)
Warro Bantan
16-08-2007, 10:43
...So my vote is defintely with the CL. In all honesty, weren't tears of joy rolling down your face as Inzaghi rolled in goal number 2 against Liverpool ? :) I was too busy screaming abuse at Liverpool fans world wide to cry then...but I certainly did when I saw Maldini lift the cup...and I hope to cry for the very same reason this term!
FORZA MIIIIIIIIIIIIIILAN!! UCL Campione!!
CL is the most wanted trophy, no doubts here. Don't listen to the ones who say Scudetto is more worthy.
Scudetto is harder to get though. Especially when there is another team fighting for it (unlike last year when it was one horse race). You need to perform well in at least 8 months out of 9 (unlike CL where a great April and May brings you the trophy)
Coppa is only waste of time
Intercontinental cup is a spectacle. Nice trophy for the collection but nothing to lose sleep over it if you fail to win it
European super cup is close to Coppa and history shows that UEFA/CC teams pay more attention to it than the CL winners. But it makes the number bigger and it's nice to have this trophy.
As for Milan... i think you'll win 2 or maybe even 3 trophies this year. But you'll win the wrong 2/3 trophies. It's just my feeling :)
Warro Bantan
16-08-2007, 13:54
Tony, dont bet on it ;)
Since 1955-1956 (the first champions league was played in that year):
Milan has won 7 Cl's < 12 scudetti
Juventus has won 2 Cl's < 18 scudetti
Inter has won 2 CL's < 8 scudetti
Roma 0 CL's < 2 scudetti
So I wouldn't say that the scudetto is harder to get... Maybe the fact that you "only" have to be really good in the last two months of the season doesn't make it easier but on the oppossit more difficult.
Warro Bantan
16-08-2007, 15:54
Good counter kef....though it depends on how many refs owe you for "favors"...:diablo:
I wouldn't push it too far, considering Hajduk Split has lost to Sampdoria today.
Since 1955-1956 (the first champions league was played in that year):
Milan has won 7 Cl's < 12 scudetti
Juventus has won 2 Cl's < 18 scudetti
Inter has won 2 CL's < 8 scudetti
Roma 0 CL's < 2 scudetti
So I wouldn't say that the scudetto is harder to get... Maybe the fact that you "only" have to be really good in the last two months of the season doesn't make it easier but on the oppossit more difficult.
Of course they have more scudetti than CL's
From 1955-2007 these teams play every year for scudetto but till 1994 only the champion of Italy was playing for CL.
Roma for example, played, since 1955, in serie A, 52 times (years) while in CL/champions cup they played only 5 times. It's normal they have more scudetti than Cl's.
Or if you take Milan.... they played 50 times in serie A and won 12 scudetti ( 1 scudetto in 4.5 attempts) while they played 19 times in CL and won 7 trophies ( 1 trophy in every 2.7 attempts)
Until 1992 it was much easier to win CL than serie A. Big teams had to play only 5 serious matches to win the trophy. In the 1/16 and 1/8 finals big teams had to eliminate teams from Albania or Norway and the serious matches were only 5 , sometimes even only 3 (the quarters, semi and the final). They had only April and May to show what they got. They could have let their second squad play from September till April and they would have still qualified)
But in serie A Milan simply couldn't have afford to play bad for more than 1 month because one of Inter, Juve, Roma, Napoli or Sampdoria wouldn't have had the drop in form and would have won serie A.
After 1992 it's only a little different. Look at Milan of last year, look at Liverpool of last 3 years. Teams that finish 30 points behind the leaders in their league are winning CL.
The bad/awful/average form of Milan from last year till April was enough to take them to the quarters of CL but was also enough to put them 30 points behind the leaders in serie A.. Or Liverpool from 2005. They played awful in the first part of the season and they lost all the chances for winning EPL but they still had chances to win CL and they did it eventually.
Of course, even CL is tricky. You can play perfectly for 9 months and you can still lose the trophy in that one final match. That's the tricky part here - nothing is guaranteed in CL while in the league if you play perfectly for 9 months you'll 99.99% win the league.
Of course they have more scudetti than CL's
From 1955-2007 these teams play every year for scudetto but till 1994 only the champion of Italy was playing for CL.
So it was before 1994 certainly more difficult te get a CL victory, because not only did they have to win the CL tournament itself, the teams also had to become champions in the year before. But then again you can off course ask yourself if it was more difficult to get the scudetto or the CL...
It is hard to tell wich is harder to get. It also depends, like you mentioned, on the developments during the year. If you do good in the national competition, you concentrate on that, if not you concentrate on CL.
But be not mistaken, they are both hard to get. For different reasons. For the national competition you have to play good the whole year, mostly the games are against much weaker and weaker teams and you don't necesarily have to win against the best teams of the competition. In CL on the contrary you have to be good (groupfase) and very good (elimination round) in just a few matches. That makes CL so difficult, so tricky. You just can't make mistakes, certainly not in the elimination round.
Lets just conclude that getting the double (national competition and CL) is the most difficult to get and the teams who can reach that deserve certainly the utmost respect. The last one who reached this was ManU I think, when they even got the trebble.
So it was before 1994 certainly more difficult te get a CL victory, because not only did they have to win the CL tournament itself, the teams also had to become champions in the year before. But then again you can off course ask yourself if it was more difficult to get the scudetto or the CL...
It is hard to tell wich is harder to get. It also depends, like you mentioned, on the developments during the year. If you do good in the national competition, you concentrate on that, if not you concentrate on CL.
But be not mistaken, they are both hard to get. For different reasons. For the national competition you have to play good the whole year, mostly the games are against much weaker and weaker teams and you don't necesarily have to win against the best teams of the competition. In CL on the contrary you have to be good (groupfase) and very good (elimination round) in just a few matches. That makes CL so difficult, so tricky. You just can't make mistakes, certainly not in the elimination round.
Lets just conclude that getting the double (national competition and CL) is the most difficult to get and the teams who can reach that deserve certainly the utmost respect. The last one who reached this was ManU I think, when they even got the trebble.
All true and i agree on everything.....except for the last part
Barcelona also won the double in 2006 and Bayern did it in 2001 ( Porto also did it in 2004 but the league in Portugal is much weaker)
But we mustn't forget some teams that were also terrific in both CL and the league but were unlucky not to win both ( Milan in 1993 and 1995, Juve in 1997,1998 and 2003 , Bayern in 1999 and even Milan in 2005, eventhough they missed out on both)
It's indeed very hard to win both trophies. Only superb teams can do that.
Maldini+Nesta
16-08-2007, 20:51
I know it sounds nuts, but I only say Lo Scudetto
because I REEEEEEEEEEEEALLLY want 2 stars on
the glorious Rossoneri kit.
Another CL trophy is a very close 2nd.
:5ok:
CL, CL, and always CL. We are a team built for Europe. For me, the scudetto would only be the icing or the cherry on the cake...
Pedroyesur
17-08-2007, 11:03
its important to retain the champs league but to be a domestic champion aswell
hany.Egypt
17-08-2007, 11:35
I may disagree with you about saying that the Scudetto is more difficult than the UCL as in the former you have the advantage of making mistakes and then correct it, while in the latter, you may performe excellently during the entire competition, like what Milan did in 1993 or 1995, dont remmber, and donot lose any match till the final and then lose the title and end up as just runner up, also the Cl has its unique magic so I hope we can do it once more, even if Inter won the Scudetto.
But we mustn't forget some teams that were also terrific in both CL and the league but were unlucky not to win both ( Milan in 1993 and 1995, Juve in 1997,1998 and 2003 , Bayern in 1999 and even Milan in 2005, eventhough they missed out on both)
juve is not unlucky not to win the 2003 UCL, they don't deserve it. What's with the pathetic display of soccer by camping 11 players in their own half and even with rouque junior limping on the field, juve was content to stay in their own half. That pathetic display is not worthy of a UCL. Its even an insult to compare to the juve of 1997,1998 who was excellent and really unlucky not to win.
CL, CL, and always CL. We are a team built for Europe. For me, the scudetto would only be the icing or the cherry on the cake...
you echo my feelings, i only care about the UCL now. The scudetto is not the same because the league is weaker now. The excitement of the UCL where a single mistake is enough to send you out of the competition just send my heart pumping, its a different ball game altogether.
ACMILAN1983
17-08-2007, 14:53
Juve in 1997,1998 and 2003
That must be a joke because Juve were dominated by Milan (who had a fair goal disallowed too and also managed to hold Juve when down to 10 players) in the final and Milan without doubt was the star side in that CL.
Exactly, hwmook. There's something magical about Europe. The games, at least from the knockout stages on, are all high tension, high anxiety, BIG games---and to come through that sort of competition where you are tested against the very best again and again, and then win the trophy is an amazing feeling. To win in Europe, you got to beat the best. The truth is to win the league, you got to collect maximum points from the worst---all the "small" mid to lower table teams. Both are challenging in different ways, but for me winning the UCL is the holy grail of club football..
That must be a joke because Juve were dominated by Milan (who had a fair goal disallowed too and also managed to hold Juve when down to 10 players) in the final and Milan without doubt was the star side in that CL.
:)
I was talking about teams that were good enough to fight in two fronts and came very close to winning both trophies.
Being in the CL final and winning serie A is a proof that Juve in 2003 was great ( just like Milan in 93 and 95, Juve in 97 and 98 etc) .
You know.. like, Marselle did deserve to be the champion in 93 but so did Milan. Milan was unlucky not to win in 1993 but so would have been Marselle if they didn't win.
I never talked about the final match itself. Was talking about the season in general.
P.S : Milan didn't have a fair goal disallowed Dev. The rules are clear about such positions and these kind of goals are always disallowed. It happened 2 seasons ago in Juve-Lazio and it happened at the WC in Italy-USA, when Lazio and USA had the same kind of goal like Sheva's disallowed.
I find it a stupid rule but it's a rule and it was disallowed fairly.
And i don't remember Milan being down to 10 men in the final.
ACMILAN1983
18-08-2007, 10:04
:)
I was talking about teams that were good enough to fight in two fronts and came very close to winning both trophies.
Being in the CL final and winning serie A is a proof that Juve in 2003 was great ( just like Milan in 93 and 95, Juve in 97 and 98 etc) .
You know.. like, Marselle did deserve to be the champion in 93 but so did Milan. Milan was unlucky not to win in 1993 but so would have been Marselle if they didn't win.
I never talked about the final match itself. Was talking about the season in general.
P.S : Milan didn't have a fair goal disallowed Dev. The rules are clear about such positions and these kind of goals are always disallowed. It happened 2 seasons ago in Juve-Lazio and it happened at the WC in Italy-USA, when Lazio and USA had the same kind of goal like Sheva's disallowed.
I find it a stupid rule but it's a rule and it was disallowed fairly.
And i don't remember Milan being down to 10 men in the final.
Ok, I agree then. Though I would say it would be a worthy victory rather than deserved.
On the goal, Rui was apparently impeding Buffon's view (hence interfering with play) in an offside position and the goal was disallowed. However, Rui on replays was shown as being quite clearly out of Buffon's line of sight and thus not interfering with play. The linesman can't be blamed as from his angle he probably couldn't see this. Milan also were effectively down to 10 men as Roque Junior was badly injured all of injury time. We couldn't sub him (we used 3 by then) and so he soldiered on, but was in reality useless as he couldn't actually run.
Ok, I agree then. Though I would say it would be a worthy victory rather than deserved.
No, it would have been a deserved victory for Juve if Juve won the shoot-outs.
It was the most boring final ever and people actually say the total opposite of what i'm saying. I say both teams deserved to win the final but most people say that both teams didn't deserve to win that final.
As for the final itself, no team played good. Milan had a disallowed goal, good chance by Inzaghi and Roque Junior did limp around the pitch for 20 minutes, but Juve did also have it's share of chances, when Trez almost scored and Conte hit the woodwork.
And most importantly, the penalty shoot-outs and Dida making 4 steps forwards when he saved some of the penalties.
During the season Milan was fantastic in group stages but struggled a lot in knock-outs where you needed a last minute goal to eliminate the outsider Ajax and you needed "away" goal scored on your own stadium to eliminate Inter. Juve on the other hand was average in group stages but brilliant in the knock-outs where they eliminated #1 and #2 favorites for the CL trophy, Barcelona (who were undefeated in the previous 13 matches) and previous champions, the Gallacticos from Madrid.
Don't forget also that Juve had to play without our Kaka - Pavel Nedved, who was the player of the year that season and who was to Juve what Kaka is now to Milan and Juve had to play for more than 60 minutes without our midfield engine and yet creator Edgar Davids.
Juve absolutely deserved to be Euro champion that year. But so did Milan.
That was my main point since the beginning. Some teams were simply unlucky not to win the double because they certainly deserved that, but if they did win the double then another team would have been unlucky for losing the CL even though deserved to win it.
zlatanov
18-08-2007, 10:51
Juve may have deserved to win the CL that year (given the opponents they had disposed of before the final) but not the final itself, which is what it comes down to in the end. :)
And a Juve fan putting his own spin on things saying that Juve would have been worth winners of the final when 90+% of neutral fans thought otherwise ... well, you know what ... given that Milan were the ones who actually won it, I can live with that :zany: :diablo:
winning finals comes down to pedigree, my friend, and Juve dominating Milan in their Serie A encounters during that same season or how strong Juve's oponents were in the CL before the final didn't mean jack when the knife hit the bone ... and let Milan teach Inter and Juve a thing or two about that. :devf:
:D
Juve may have deserved to win the CL that year (given the opponents they had disposed of before the final) but not the final itself, which is what it comes down to in the end. :)
Isn't this what i was saying since the beginning ?
I was talking about teams that won one big trophy in the season but deserved to win a double for their performances in the same season.
Milan also didn't completely deserve to win the final this year but they won it. But also , if Pool won this year with the same performance from both teams, Milan wouldn't have deserved to lose this year's final. Just like it was with Juve in 2003. Whoever would have won the final in 2003 and 2005 would have been fair to the winners and unfair to the losers.
It was different with Milan in 2005 when you 100% deserved to win but you lost, but in 2003 and 2007 noone was clearly better than the other
And a Juve fan putting his own spin on things saying that Juve would have been worth winners of the final when 90+% of neutral fans thought otherwise ... well, you know what ... given that Milan were the ones who actually won it, I can live with that :zany: :diablo:
Gee, where did you come up with that number. If i remember correctly every single neutral back then thought none of the finalists deserved to win that final and they both deserved to lose it.
winning finals comes down to pedigree, my friend, and Juve dominating Milan in their Serie A encounters during that same season or how strong Juve's oponents were in the CL before the final didn't mean jack when the knife hit the bone ... and let Milan teach Inter and Juve a thing or two about that. :devf:
:D
You do know Milan won that final on penalties, don't you ? And you know you lost the next final again on penalties.
You think the pedigree of the teams or the cheating of Dida and Dudek were more decisive in the penalty shoot-outs ?
zlatanov
18-08-2007, 12:57
Isn't this what i was saying since the beginning ?
I was talking about teams that won one big trophy in the season but deserved to win a double for their performances in the same season.
Milan also didn't completely deserve to win the final this year but they won it. But also , if Pool won this year with the same performance from both teams, Milan wouldn't have deserved to lose this year's final. Just like it was with Juve in 2003. Whoever would have won the final in 2003 and 2005 would have been fair to the winners and unfair to the losers.
It was different with Milan in 2005 when you 100% deserved to win but you lost, but in 2003 and 2007 noone was clearly better than the other
I think you are misinterpreting the meaning of the words "played better" and "deserved" Tony.
If a team wins a trophy, then they deservedly won it as OBVIOUSLY they have done enough to win it ;) ... hence Milan deservedly won the CL in 2003 and 2007 and Liveropool deservedly won it in 2005 ...
Again, it doesn't mean jack if Milan had to beat the crap out of manU and Inter in order to get to the final or if Milan were 2 clases and more above that liverpool team in 2005 ... all that matters is that Milan didn't do enough to win it and that's it - Pool won that game because they did enough to win it, while Milan didn't ... who cares if one team had the better plays during the game and created more chances, history sure doesn't ;)
Gee, where did you come up with that number. If i remember correctly every single neutral back then thought none of the finalists deserved to win that final and they both deserved to lose it.
In the same way a Juve fan came up with "Juve deserved to win" a game where Milan had the better opportunities and the better part for most of the game - my bias :grinser:
if Juve deserved to win the game, they would have but they didn't ... and btw, PKs being a lottery, that's a night story only naive kids believe - a PK in the penalty shootouts is just as valuable and has to do as much with football skill and winning as a PK in regular time does ... haven't heard someone call a win of 1-0 (with a PK in regular time) a "lottery" or "if the other team hadn't scored their PK, we'd have deservedly won"
You do know Milan won that final on penalties, don't you ? And you know you lost the next final again on penalties.
You think the pedigree of the teams or the cheating of Dida and Dudek were more decisive in the penalty shoot-outs ?
being biased has nothing to do with this assesment, does it? :bri:
go check the replays and if you are manage to be 50-50 in your judgement, you will see that Dida did nothing that Buffon didn't do too ... only difference was that on one occasion Buffon's reaction didn't make a difference and the Milan player scored his PK ... but hey, as I say, if an excuse is good enough to make you feel better, then I guess it's a good excuse ... just let's not 'forcefully' make good excuses be part of reality too :p155: :diablo:
just for the record, I have a feeling the "if we had nedved playing, Milan would have had no chance of winning" trupm card is about to enter the game ... of course, I would then remind you of your bashing of Milan being all Kaka in this year's Cl but I guess that's another topic :grinser:
As for Pool, you know my take on their win :5ok:
regarding Pool's european pedigree, with 5 CL wins, it comes secondonly to Real's and Milan's, which I guess means they could teach Inter and Juve a thing or two about Europe too :D
I voted for the CL. This is by far the trophy I want the most. The CL is magical, it is the Promised Land.
I believe winning the CL is harder than winning Serie A. In CL you face only good teams, the best teams in the respective leagues. It's hard to defeat an entire line of giants like Barca, Real, Liverpool, Man U and so on and then finally be fortunate enough to win the final.
Winning the Scudetto is difficult too. But in Serie A you face teams that do not have the economical strength to build top teams. Teams like Ascoli, Messina, Atalanta... In Serie A a top side like Milan can field a second string team against such teams and still win the matches and in the process rest the stars for more important games.
Another argument is that if you have just ONE bad game you are out of the CL. In Serie A it is OK to have bad days because you have many more games to make up ground.
being biased has nothing to do with these assesments, does it? :bri:
go check the replays and if you are manage to be 50-50 in judgement, you will see that Dida did nothing that Buffon didn't do too.
I checked those replays thousands of times.
The goalkeeper mustn't move forward before the player takes the penalty.
Buffon didn't move in no occasion before Milan players took their penalties. He moved at the moment when Milan players touched the ball. Dida vs Montero is a totally different story. Dida made 3 steps forward even before Montero took the penalty. If Buffon did the same on Nesta's penalty kick then he would have saved it.
Dudek did the same vs Pirlo and the refs must have disallowed those saves.
It's simple Zlat. According to the rules Buffon didn't make anything wrong while Dida did. Watch the replays and watch when do they move forward.
zlatanov
18-08-2007, 13:14
I checked those replays thousands of times.
The goalkeeper mustn't move forward before the player takes the penalty.
Buffon didn't move in no occasion before Milan players took their penalties. He moved at the moment when Milan players touched the ball. Dida vs Montero is a totally different story. Dida made 3 steps forward even before Montero took the penalty. If Buffon did the same on Nesta's penalty kick then he would have saved it.
Dudek did the same vs Pirlo and the refs must have disallowed those saves.
It's simple Zlat. According to the rules Buffon didn't make anything wrong while Dida did. Watch the replays and watch when do they move forward.
I am pretty sure that in several years, when things come into place in your heart and mind, you will have a very different take on it ;)
I know what the rules say and I agree that Dida wasn't within regulations, but neither was Buffon ... you just wanna see it in slightly dif way, for now (remember these words when that day comes, will ya :))
but I still believe that even now it's possible to achieve that by just looking ast the replays and not having your mind pre-programmed to see what you wanna see or what you once thought you were seeing ... then you'd see that Serginho's PK, if I am not mistaken, went in only because Buffi got the direction wrong (I think ... or was just too well-taken a PK by the Brazilian)) other than that, he came out as far out as possible and then some ... it's just that it didn't make a difference, unlike in Seedorf's and Kaladze's case
Blacktop
18-08-2007, 14:38
Dida vs Montero is a totally different story. Dida made 3 steps forward even before Montero took the penalty.
That one penalty still makes me cringe when I see it. He was practically nose-to-nose with Montero before the kick. Maybe it went ignored because the refs wanted the darn match to end already. :)
Zlat, are you only kidding with me or your serious ?If you're kidding me please tell me so we both save some time.
Find the rules about penalty-shoot outs. It says "The goalkeeper must remain between the goal-posts on his goal-line until the ball has been kicked, although he can jump in place, wave his arms, move side to side along the goal line or otherwise try to distract the shooter.
Now watch the replays. Buffon never moves forward before the penalty kick is taken. He moves forward at the same time, or after, the shooters touch the ball.
Dida, in some penalties, is also doing the same thing Buffon did. He moves forward but only when the shooter touches the ball. But in two cases, especially when Montero took the penalty, Dida was moving forward much earlier before the shoters touched the ball.
Now please, show me when is Buffon moving before Milan players touch the ball.
zlatanov
18-08-2007, 15:11
Bad, bad Dida :5horse: ... good, Buffi, good Buffi :p155:
:grinser:
you are right, Tony:
Dida is the devil
Buffon is an angel
... and that's why the devil got the coppa in the end :D
come on man, let it go, take a deep breath and you shall see the light - the one and only deserved winner of CL 2002/03 - Milan :diablo:
P.S. just for the record, the keeper is not supposed to move forward at all - neither before nor after the kicker touches the ball - only along the line (and can do so even before the ball is touched hence Dudek's waving motons and dancing) :)
If most keeprs do it, it's only because they rely on the ref cutting them some slack and not being willing to cause controversy by asking the PK to be retaken (have seen it happen, though)
Years ago, keepers were forbidden to move even along the line before the PK taker has kicked the ball but the rules were changed allowing movement along the line BEFORE the ball was kicked (without coming forward), although I think that was facing some reviews ... not sure what happened with it, though.
Many keepers, however, avoid doing it because body movement leads to dedicating your body mass in a well defined direction - be that left or right - and that means they could end up wrong-footing themselves as it takes a certain amount of time and effort to change direction once they have dedicated themselves in a certain direction ... even more, the best PK-takers "read" the keeper's movement right before the PK and wait to see where his body will lean to and they just put the ball in the other direction using the keepers inablity to change directions so quickly (and most of the time the ball wouldn't be a difficult one to stop provided that the keeper had chosen the right direction ... meaning that the key to a successful PK is often not a well placed ball, but a well chosen direction).
One main reason why keeprs like buffon prefer to wait is that they wanna make sure that they get the direction right ... from there on, they rely on their reflexes but above all on the kicker's inability to place an unsaveble shot into the net given the pressure and all that - during PKs, players are much more likely to put the ball near the position of the keeper (somewhere around the center) as opposed to near the low or high corner of the net (which is pretty much an unsaveable shot) because taking such a shot (in the corner) is a risky thing to do and under the pressure involved the chance of not taking it perfectly and hitting the bar (or not hitting the goal at all) is even greater.
As Lev Yashin said it, penalties are missed not saved i.e. the only way for a keeper to save a PK is to rely on the weaknesses of the kicker.
stop causing trouble zlat or tony will resume his search for your photo!
stop causing trouble zlat or tony will resume his search for your photo!
Where have you been in last 10 days :rolleyes:
He has finally shown himself. Search for his picture in MM members pictures topic !
i don't see his photo on there tony
zlatanov
18-08-2007, 16:04
i don't see his photo on there tony
I think I know why - cause it's not there :D
@the Evil Juventino,
how about you take a break from putting shadows on Milan's greatness and clear up your mailbox :grinser:
ACMILAN1983
18-08-2007, 16:04
ok, I really couldn't be bothered to read all the posts about this here because it's all getting too long for me to care (seeing as it's the past, we won and that's that).
Tony, the term "deserved" implies that Juve were the best team that year (which they were not), so I don't think it's the appropriate term.
your post suggests Juve-Milan were fairly even in that final, I'm more than certain most neutrals would strongly disagree.
As for Nedved (personally can't stand him) missing, I really don't think that's much of an argument seeing as Milan beat Juve not too long prior to the final with Nedved playing if I'm correct.
i don't see his photo on there tony
He must have deleted the post.
He is not good looking, very short, big nose, bald (i thought he only had a fetish for bald heads, i was really surprised when i saw he's really bald), overweight. But the background in the picture was really nice :5ok:
zlatanov
18-08-2007, 16:09
He must have deleted the post.
He is not good looking, very short, big nose, bald (i thought he only had a fetish for bald heads, i was really surprised when i saw he's really bald), overweight. But the background in the picture was really nice :5ok:
by "his" he meant mine photo, Tony ... not yours :D
btw, you should really bring the broom back from retirement and delete some of your older PMs cause your mailbox is full ... once you are done, you can again hide your baldness with it (the broom that is) :grinser:
ok, I really couldn't be bothered to read all the posts about this here because it's all getting too long for me to care (seeing as it's the past, we won and that's that).
Tony, the term "deserved" implies that Juve were the best team that year (which they were not), so I don't think it's the appropriate term.
your post suggests Juve-Milan were fairly even in that final, I'm more than certain most neutrals would strongly disagree.
As for Nedved (personally can't stand him) missing, I really don't think that's much of an argument seeing as Milan beat Juve not too long prior to the final with Nedved playing if I'm correct.
nice try to get back on topic, Dev :diablo:
He must have deleted the post.
He is not good looking, very short, big nose, bald (i thought he only had a fetish for bald heads, i was really surprised when i saw he's really bald), overweight. But the background in the picture was really nice :5ok:
somehow i don't believe you :delol:
As for Nedved (personally can't stand him) missing, I really don't think that's much of an argument seeing as Milan beat Juve not too long prior to the final with Nedved playing if I'm correct.
How do you mean Nedved missing is not an argument ?
We missed the bloody world player of the year who was winning matches against the biggest clubs that year. He was our best scorer in CL that year.
If Juve beat Milan with Kaka in Turin in serie A does it mean that Milan won't be missing Kaka in a CL final vs Juve ?
Milan did beat Juve prior the final ( Juve totally outplayed you in both league matches that year, though) but that was a serie A match in a league where Juve was comfortably winning while Milan was fighting to get a CLQ spot. And the match was played in Milano.
And really, how do you guys conclude that Milan deserved to win that final ? I don't think Milan had more chances or more possession.
At the end, all that matters is that Milan did win the final on penalties and like Zlat said, whoever wins such big final like a CL, EC or WC no one can say it wasn't deserved.
But Juve was a better team than Milan that year, in general, and it's silly to say otherwise.
zlatanov
18-08-2007, 16:32
How do you mean Nedved missing is not an argument ?
We missed the bloody world player of the year who was winning matches against the biggest clubs that year. He was our best scorer in CL that year.
If Juve beat Milan with Kaka in Turin in serie A does it mean that Milan won't be missing Kaka in a CL final vs Juve ?
Milan did beat Juve prior the final ( Juve totally outplayed you in both league matches that year, though) but that was a serie A match in a league where Juve was comfortably winning while Milan was fighting to get a CLQ spot. And the match was played in Milano.
And really, how do you guys conclude that Milan deserved to win that final ? I don't think Milan had more chances or more possession.
At the end, all that matters is that Milan did win the final on penalties and like Zlat said, whoever wins such big final like a CL, EC or WC no one can say it wasn't deserved.
But Juve was a better team than Milan that year, in general, and it's silly to say otherwise.
well, that's something totally irrelevent to which team was better in the CL final and the question who was a deserved winner not only in the final game but CL season as a whole considering that Milan topped both of their groups with teams like Real M, Bayern, Borussia D, Deportivo in them, while Juve hardly managed to scrape thru the second the group stage with ManU topping the group and Juve ending with the same pts as the other two teams in the group (Basel and Deportivo) and only making it thru on goal dif or better head to head result.
The only group Juve managed to top was when the second best team in there was Newcastle. :v46:
As for why Milan fans and not only might claim that Milan had the better of the final, here are some stats (take special look at shots on goal, corners, offsides (some dubious ones vs. Milan) and number of fouls commited by Juve players - all stats that show a certain pattern of dominance by one of the teams):
http://www.uefa.com/competitions/ucl/history/season=2002/round=1640/match=1045288/report=st.html
and that's not counting circumstances like the disallowed goal - I personally think it was a correct decision but some refs may have well allowed it to stay - and the fact that Milan played with 10 men for 26-27 min of extra time.
I'm trying to find highlights from that match. Stats like this don't mean much (except for corner kicks). I'll count the real chances, that's what counts, because i can see the possession was 49-51.
Liverpool was better almost in everything vs Milan in last final : http://www.uefa.com/competitions/ucl/fixturesresults/round=2361/match=300099/report=st.html
Did Liverpool deserve to win ?
Can you find me highlights Zlat ? I really can't find anything except for the penalties and some situation when Conte falls in the box.
Anyway, the match back then ended 0:0 and it wasn't because Buffon was doing miracles. If Milan was so much better they would have created chances and scored at least one. The fact is Milan didn't create more than 2 chances and the fact is Juve had just as many chances.
No one was better in that final. Maybe Juve was a little worse in that final, but no one played good back then so people could say "Yes, Milan totally deserved to win".
You totally twisted my words from my previous posts. I've never claimed Juve played better in the final match.
zlatanov
18-08-2007, 16:57
I'm trying to find highlights from that match. Stats like this don't mean much (except for corner kicks). I'll count the real chances, that's what counts, because i can see the possession was 49-51.
Liverpool was better almost in everything vs Milan in last final : http://www.uefa.com/competitions/ucl/fixturesresults/round=2361/match=300099/report=st.html
Did Liverpool deserve to win ?
Can you find me highlights Zlat ? I really can't find anything except for the penalties and some situation when Conte falls in the box.
no, Pool didn't deserve to win and they didn't as they were contained and controlled bar 1-2 situations ... and the stats are a litlle mixed up, some are for Milan, some for Pool and the differences are pretty small, while in that game virtually everything says Milan.
Also, the stats I provided was not to determine who deserved to win or not but in response to you saying "I don't think Milan had more chances or more possession."
Here is a link to a file vadim uploaded on a file-sharing site - the file is a round-up of all of Milan's games for the 02-03 CL season but in the end I think you can find a pretty full review of the Milan-Juve game:
http://files.filefront.com//;6895102;;/
Uff, it's pretty big Zlat and i can't go over the 10GB line per month. I was hoping you'll find a 2-3 minutes video from the final.
Nevermind
zlatanov
18-08-2007, 17:04
Uff, it's pretty big Zlat and i can't go over the 10GB line per month. I was hoping you'll find a 2-3 minutes video from the final.
Nevermind
that's the only I have ... maybe you could try youtube, I am sure they have extansive highlights for that game too.
Or I could recap it for you - Milan was the better team, plain and simple :D
that's the only I have ... maybe you could try youtube, I am sure they have extansive highlights for that game too.
Or I could recap it for you - Milan was the better team, plain and simple :D
No, youtube only has the penalties. :(
And no, Milan wasn't the better team because both teams played very bad. No one deserved to be called "the better team" only Juve deserved to be called "very very, very very very lightly worse than Milan"
zlatanov
18-08-2007, 17:18
no, the game wasn't entertaining not beacsue the teams played bad but because both Milan and Juve were 2 good teams that knew one another well and nullified the opposition as much as possible ... it's the type of game only a fan of Italian football can appreciate :)
anyways, I just checked youtube and you are right they only PK highlights, not the full ones.
Maybe vadim can pull something off his sleeve ... yo, Vadim, where are you when we need you? :D
P.S. I am gonna PM him
i don't remember either team being more dangerous or better than the other. Both teams threatened at times, but Zlat is right in that they both cancelled each other out.
I will watch my video tomorrow and see the penalties.
I would personally set up the penalties again once and for all between Milan, Juventus and Liverpool.
Dida and Dudek aren't allowed to jump off the line before the kick is made. Then again its a big conspiracy because after totally owning Liverpool the ref may tell us to retake every single penalty against Juve as they and the refs are like Starsky & Hutch.
ACMILAN1983
19-08-2007, 05:32
How do you mean Nedved missing is not an argument ?
We missed the bloody world player of the year who was winning matches against the biggest clubs that year. He was our best scorer in CL that year.
If Juve beat Milan with Kaka in Turin in serie A does it mean that Milan won't be missing Kaka in a CL final vs Juve ?
Milan did beat Juve prior the final ( Juve totally outplayed you in both league matches that year, though) but that was a serie A match in a league where Juve was comfortably winning while Milan was fighting to get a CLQ spot. And the match was played in Milano.
And really, how do you guys conclude that Milan deserved to win that final ? I don't think Milan had more chances or more possession.
At the end, all that matters is that Milan did win the final on penalties and like Zlat said, whoever wins such big final like a CL, EC or WC no one can say it wasn't deserved.
But Juve was a better team than Milan that year, in general, and it's silly to say otherwise.
No, it doesn't make that big a difference because he's not at all a guarantee to bring Juve victory (again we played him out of a match during the league season, so it was definately not beyong Milan to do it again).
Juve did not outplay Milan in the second tie in Serie A. We were most definately more dominant in that match (we had sat back after going 2-1 up but still controlled the game). Also, suggesting that match was less important to Juve than Milan is totally rubbish, as it was Juve's opportunity to take Milan completely out of the title race once and for all and maintain their lead over Inter.
And no, it's not silly to say Juve were better, because technically Milan showed much greater ability that year and dominated Juve twice (I put to you to bring neutral opinions on both Milan - Juve matches Milan won that year to prove me wrong). Juve were more consistent as Milan burnt themselves out during the first half of the season (something Carlo learnt from quickly), but that never equals better.
I accept that in the final Juve did manage to cancel Milan out to reduce the number of chances, but that match was always controlled by Milan.
It's simple, I've not once seen a neutral fan say that Milan weren't better in either of the matches I've mentioned above, which speaks more than what our biased views ever can.
Next season is going to be one hectic year for Milan - in 6 competitions and it would be a dream come true for all Rossoneri fans if we won all 6 cups.
However if you had to choose the one cup out of all of the following, which would it be:
Intercontinental Cup
UEFA CL
Scudetto
Coppa Italia
Italian Super Cup
or UEFA Super Cup?
I would have to go with the WCC, its one trophy I have never seen them lift and it would just be great.
If we win it, we become the first team in history to win 4 WCCs so that's the one I want most.
hany.Egypt
19-08-2007, 16:15
and if we win the CL , we will be the first team to win it twice on the row so that's the one I want most
and if we win the CL , we will be the first team to win it twice on the row so that's the one I want most
No, we'll be the first team to win it since Sacchi's Milan.
zlatanov
19-08-2007, 18:07
No, we'll be the first team to win it since Sacchi's Milan.
that was a competition of a different format (European Champions Cup, I think was the name) ... same idea, but different format.
Since the beginning of the CL in it's current format (1992, I think) no team has won the competition twice in a row.
No, we'll be the first team to win it since Sacchi's Milan.
No, you'll be the first team to win CL twice in a row
Edit: move off Zlat :mad:
zlatanov
19-08-2007, 18:17
No, you'll be the first team to win CL twice in a row
Edit: **** off Zlat :mad:
you too :zany: :diablo:
told you once - there's only one discipline you are faster than me and that's no thing to brag about :grinser:
hany.Egypt
19-08-2007, 19:35
No, you'll be the first team to win CL twice in a row
Edit: **** off Zlat :mad:
hahaha this is funny tony and zalatan
atreides602
20-08-2007, 06:24
As one of the signatures here says : "I want the world chiqo , and everything in it "
that was a competition of a different format (European Champions Cup, I think was the name) ... same idea, but different format.
Since the beginning of the CL in it's current format (1992, I think) no team has won the competition twice in a row.
That's the truth, i don't undestand why Tony states a dif thing.
acmilan_nutu
20-08-2007, 09:37
hello guys im stefano 20 years old and im a big supporter of ac milan!
i like for this season to win scudetto 2006 2007!
As one of the signatures here says : "I want the world chiqo , and everything in it "
Dude that would be a dream come true, from the Kings of Italy, to the Kings of Europe and World, though I must say it wont be in that order. I think its World, Italy and then Europe.
& if I was Maldini thats when I would retire - leave with a bang. :(
fordrmani
20-09-2007, 09:43
champions league
scudetto :diablo:
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