All posts re: the Italian Football Scandal (Moggipoli)

Originally Posted by Kui

Jeff you're still not getting my point are you? It has nothing to do with our being innocent or guilty. It has to do with the way we conducted ourselves (i.e. Berlu and every other bloodthirsty Milan Fan) from the outset of this scandal and STILL the way we are conducting ourselves now! I told you time and time and time and time and time and time and time and time and time and time and again that this will get us in trouble. Now that we are in trouble irregardless of our guilt or innocence... remember how we got here! It wasnt a friggin conspiracy and if it is look no further than our clubs doorstep and within the heart of the Milan fan. I told you this was a witch hunt and it was always a witch hunt. Now that we are the ones being hunted, wisdom still has not been endowed on the lot. So our innocence is too late for that to even matter! So dont lecture me about how we are innocent or guilty. Intrigue me instead to wondering why the hell we got here in the first place. That is unless you are part of the clueless lot jeff. Give me a conspiracy Jeff!

Nice point, first:

1) I'm not lecturing you, nor am I saying that we are innocent or guilty. The point is made quite clear that we believe that Milan is not guilty. I'm not here to convince anyone that's the case.

2)Let me intrigue you why we got here in the first place. There are telephone interceptions regarding Milan, and the interceptions suggest (suggest only) that Milan is guilty of match fixing. I must admit that if this is NOT the reason, then I'm the 'clueless lot'; but I don't see how one can call himself/herself less 'clueless' but coming up with a conspiracy theory.

As to how 'It has to do with the way we conducted ourselves (i.e. Berlu and every other bloodthirsty Milan Fan) from the outset of this scandal and STILL the way we are conducting ourselves now!", I seriously don't know what you expect from Milan fan or the President. As you said, if it's a witch hunt, it probably doesn't even matter what he does. Whether he is serious about this in the beginning or not is of no matter. It doesn't matter. Our destiny is fixed. It's a witch-hunt. Point deductions, strip of CL qualification.

ok, I"m clueless, and you have the complete clue.

According to Gazzetta: ROMA, 14 luglio 2006 - Juventus in serie B con fortissima penalizzazione, retrocessione anche per Lazio e Fiorentina, ma con un handicap inferiore (6-7 punti), Milan in A, privato però dell’Europa. Prima della campana dell’ultimo giro della lunga camera di consiglio della Commissione d’Appello federale, i giudici diretti dall’ex presidente della Corte Costituzionale Cesare Ruperto hanno maturato quest’orientamento sanzionatorio, convinti della colpevolezza di tutti e quattro i club coinvolti nella prima puntata del processo di Moggiopoli, seppure con livelli di gravità differenti. Stasera dopo le 19 sapremo se le ultime ore hanno portato a significative correzioni di rotta o no.
NIENTE OLIMPICO - La giornata di ieri è stata riempita da un rincorrersi di voci sulle pene per le squadre e per i tesserati, ma anche su data, luogo e modalità di comunicazione al pubblico della sentenza. Nel giorno del Golden Gala di atletica, in programma stasera in diretta tv, si è pensato che la soluzione più saggia fosse smarcarsi dall’Olimpico anche per evitare situazioni imbarazzanti con cortei di telecamere a incrociare riscaldamenti di saltatori e quattrocentisti. E così, si è deciso di traslocare l’ultimo atto del processo di primo grado. Spostandosi all’hotel Parco dei Principi, davanti a Villa Borghese, lo stesso dove tra l’altro si svolgerà la seconda puntata a cura della Corte federale, ma anche l’albergo in cui Lippi e un bel po’ di azzurri hanno trascorso la notte dopo l’incredibile festa del Circo Massimo.
DUBBIO MILAN - I giudici di Ruperto - con il presidente emerito della Corte Costituzionale ci sono anche l’ex procuratore federale Carlo Porceddu, il professor Mario Zoppellari, gli ex giudici di Cassazione Michele Lo Piano e Giuseppe Marziale - si sono confrontati nelle ultime ore soprattutto con il dubbio Milan. Convinti che la società rossonera sia all’ultimo posto nella classifica della colpevolezza, si è ragionato intorno alla pena più consona ballando su un confine estremamente precario.
EUROPA VIETATA - Con una Juve in B, seppure con una penalizzazione da incubo (15 punti?), il Milan è in qualche modo "rimbalzato" in serie A per garantire la sintonia fra evidenze processuali, cioè differenti gradi di violazione disciplinare, e traduzione sanzionatoria. Il problema, su cui il lavoro era ancora in corso fino alla notte, è come distribuire la punizione per la società di Berlusconi. Si è ventilato anche l’ipotesi di una sanzione divisa per due: una parte che incida sulla stagione passata e impedisca a Gattuso e compagni di giocare la prossima Champions League; l’altra su quella futura, che costringerebbe i rossoneri a partire in ritardo. Ma è un’eventualità molto remota, per cui è da ritenere più probabile un’altra strada: il Milan viene punito con una penalizzazione che viene tutta scontata nella classifica dell’ultimo campionato per poi ripartire da zero nel prossimo. In pratica: la pena serve per sottrarre sia l’Europa più importante (Champions) sia quella meno (Uefa), alla squadra di Carlo Ancelotti.
SCUDETTI - La soluzione scelta dovrebbe essere quella della non assegnazione degli ultimi due scudetti. Ma il problema di una eventuale riassegnazione dei titoli non compete alla sentenza e al lavoro della Caf, perché rientra nelle prerogative del commissario Guido Rossi, che ovviamente si terrà un tempo congruo per prendere queste decisioni. Diverso è il discorso che riguarda i tesserati perché i giudici Caf sarebbero intenzionati a non sposare in toto le richieste del procuratore Palazzi: in particolare, per Carraro gli anni di inibizione sarebbero due o tre e non cinque come chiesto nella requisitoria del pm sportivo. A sorpresa, ci sarebbe anche l’assoluzione di alcuni degli arbitri sotto inchiesta (Rocchi e Tagliavento?).
NUOVA PARTITA - Superato lo scoglio delle sentenze di primo grado più o meno nei tempi previsti, i fascicoli del processo dovrebbero viaggiare verso la Corte Federale. Tempo di percorrenza: cinque giorni, comprese le controdeduzioni delle difese. Ciò vuol dire che il processo di secondo grado potrebbe cominciare giovedì 20 e chiudersi il 24, praticamente l’ultimo giorno utile per spedire alla Uefa la lista delle abili e arruolate per l’Europa della Champions League e della coppa Uefa. Nel caso si andasse oltre, con Nyon c’è già l’accordo di ritenere esecutive le sentenze di primo grado. Anche se è probabile che nella Federcalcio sempre più rinnovata, non ci si faccia troppe illusioni: quelle spinte verso la B trasferiranno la partita verso Tar e Consiglio di Stato.
diValerio Piccioni

In Traslation for you all in English: ROME, 14 July 2006 - Juventus in B series with strongest penalization, demotion also for Lazio and Fiorentina, but with an inferior (6-7 points), Milan in To, private handicap but of Europe. Before the bell of the last turn of the long Council Chamber of the Federal Appeals Board, the judges directed from the former president of the Constitutional Court Cesar Ruperto have matured this sanzionatorio guideline, convinced of the colpevolezza of all and the four clubs been involved in the first nose-dive of the process of Moggiopoli, even though with levels of different gravities. This evening after 19 we will know if the last hours have carried to meaningful corrections of route or not. NOTHING OLYMPIC - the day yesterday has been filled up to run after itself of voices on the pains for the squares and the tesserati ones, but also on date, place and modality of communication to the public of the sentence. In the day of the Golden Gala of athletics, in in this evening directed program tv, it has been believed that the solution more tests was to unmark itself from the Olympic one also in order to avoid embarrassing situations with cortei of television cameras to intercross heatings of jumpers and quattrocentisti. And therefore, it has been decided traslocare the last proceedingses of the trial of first degree. Moving to the hotel Park of the Principles, in front of Bourgeois Villa, the same one where between the other the second nose-dive to cure of the federal Court will be carried out, but also the hotel in which Lippi and quite a lot of blueta they have passed the night after the incredible festivity of the Maximum Circus. DOUBT MILAN - The judges of Ruperto - with the emerito president of the Constitutional Court there are also the former federal proxy Carl Porceddu, professor the Mario Zoppellari, the former judges of Michele Cassation Piano and Martial Giuseppe - are themselves confront to you in the last hours with the Milan doubt above all. Convinced that the rossonera society is to the last place in classifies of the colpevolezza, it is itself reasoned around to the pain more consona dancing on a extremely precario border. PROHIBITED EUROPE - With one Juve in B, even though with one penalization from incubus (15 points), the Milan is in some "bounced" way in series To in order guaranteeing the tuning between trial-like evidences, that is different degrees of disciplinary violation, and sanzionatoria translation. The problem, on which the job it was still in course until the night, is like distributing the punishment for the society of Berlusconi. The hypothesis of one has been ventilated also endorsement uniform for two: a part that affects the last season and prevents to Gattuso and companions to play the next Champions League; the other on that future, that it would force the rossoneri to leave in delay. But remote one is an eventuality much, for which it is from thinking more probable an other road: the Milan comes punished with a penalization that comes all discounted in classifies of the last championship in order then to leave again from zero in the next one. In practical: the pain serves in order to embezzle is the more important Europe (Champions) is that less (Uefa), to the square of Carl Ancelotti. BADGES - the chosen solution would have to be that one of not the allocation of last two badges. But the problem of an eventual reassignment of the titles them does not compete to the sentence and to the job of the Caf, because it re-enters in the prerogatives of the commissioner I guide Red, than obviously a consistent time will be kept in order to take these decisions. Various it is the speech that regards the tesserati ones because judges Caf would be intenzionati not to marry in toto the demands for the proxy Palaces: in particular, for Carraro the inhibition years two or three and five would be like not asked in the requisitoria for the pm sport. To surprise, there would be also the acquittal of some of the wills under inquiry (Rocchi and Tagliavento). SEPARATED NEW - Exceeded the scoglio of the sentences of first degree more or less in the previewed times, the issues of the process would have to travel towards the Federal Court. Time of distance: five days, the controdeduzioni of the defense comprised. That wants to say that the process of second degree could begin thursday 20 and close the 24, practically the last day useful in order to send to the Uefa the list of the skillful ones and enlisted for Europe of the Champions League and the Uefa goblet. In the case it was gone beyond, with Nyon is already the agreement to think executive the sentences of first degree. Even if it is probable that in the more and more renewed Federcalcio, do not make too many illusions us: those pushes towards the B trasferiranno the game towards Tar and Consiglio di diValerio Stato. ***eons

can someone put this into "moggigate" thread please. Thanks.

Originally Posted by Jeff

Nice point, first:

I apologize for thinking wrongly about what you were saying. Point 2 of your post is accurate. I agree with it 100%. You are using reason and that is appreciated. I'm trying to instill principle and correctness in Milanisti. It felt very much that while the whole red and black world was on a joy ride with this scandal coming out, I was the only one pleading for us to slow down. Now that we've collided in a four car pileup (Juve, Milan, Lazio, &Fiorentina) I'm pissed! I can deal with reason. But that needs to be backed up by some principle and that has not been appreciated by some IMO. We wanted to see a hanging. Make no mistake about it. Well looks like we got a better view than the front seats. We're up there with the other team. We contributed to a very dangerous mix Jeff. An indiscriminate justice system with a bloodthirsty public mob. Slow down... is what I was expecting from my president and my fellow rossoneri. How can I not be angry with the zealous? I'm up there in the gallows too Jeff. Do you see my point?

BTW thanks for replying and keeping it cool. It did bring me back down a couple of notches.

with a better translation. Looks like babble fish to me.

I had no idea what this news mean, could please someone translate this message

Maybe someone who speaks Italian/English can translate this?

Every translator gives about the same text, Babel fish , Free Translations,Systran,...

The only thing I understand from the article is Juve , Lazio and Fiorentina in serie B and Milan in serie A (?) without CL next year.

Originally Posted by Kui

I apologize for thinking wrongly about what you were saying. Point 2 of your post is accurate. I agree with it 100%. You are using reason and that is appreciated. I'm trying to instill principle and correctness in Milanisti. It felt very much that while the whole red and black world was on a joy ride with this scandal coming out, I was the only one pleading for us to slow down. Now that we've collided in a four car pileup (Juve, Milan, Lazio, &Fiorentina) I'm pissed! I can deal with reason. But that needs to be backed up by some principle and that has not been appreciated by some IMO. We wanted to see a hanging. Make no mistake about it. Well looks like we got a better view than the front seats. We're up there with the other team. We contributed to a very dangerous mix Jeff. An indiscriminate justice system with a bloodthirsty public mob. Slow down... is what I was expecting from my president and my fellow rossoneri. How can I not be angry with the zealous? I'm up there in the gallows too Jeff. Do you see my point?

BTW thanks for replying and keeping it cool. It did bring me back down a couple of notches.

Only the idiots will celebrate and enjoy in Juve's disaster. When the president says, "give us back 2 scudetti", I doubt if he doesn't know that Milan is not in trouble. In fact, what he says is quite consistent with his (or the management's) belief that Milan is innocent. If milan is indeed innocent, and if indeed Juve is guilty, then it makes sense (to him at least) that the scudetto be given to Milan (whether this is moral or not, we'll leave it for now). Now this is not contradictory to what he said later, of those quotes that you have given from the last few pages. You can still strip Juve's scudetto while retaining them in Serie A. I don't think he is saying it because Milan is also among the accused. IN FACT, if he said this in the very very beginning, people will stop and wonder, "Why is he worried about it if Milan is innocenet? That means Milan must be guilty too so that IF Milan is accused (which did happen), then Berlusconi is leaving a way out for himself and the club!". What am I trying to say? These 2 incidents are not mutually exclusive; far from it. Indeed, it seems to be the case that Berlusconi is quite sincere (outwardly) about the whole incident (and let's leave the Left vs. Right politics thing away). It could well be true that he doesn't want Juve to be demoted/relegated in the very beginning when he knows that Italian football will not be left untarnished. But, it will be untimely.

According to La Gazzetta today; Lazio, Fiorentina and Juve will be relegated to the Serie B, with points being deducted. Lazio and Viola - 10 points, and Juve - 20 points. When this is said, Juve have NO chance of being promoted in their first season.
Milan will stay in Serie, also with points deducted - but also we will NOT play in this years Champions League. The reason why we are not relegated in the lack of evidence...

Originally Posted by Hitman

According to La Gazzetta today; Lazio, Fiorentina and Juve will be relegated to the Serie B, with points being deducted. Lazio and Viola - 10 points, and Juve - 20 points. When this is said, Juve have NO chance of being promoted in their first season.
Milan will stay in Serie, also with points deducted - but also we will NOT play in this years Champions League. The reason why we are not relegated in the lack of evidence...

I don't know how trustworthy this is, but I"m pretty positive that Milan is going to appeal, together with Lazio and Viola. Did they mention how much point Milan will get deducted?

So we should appeal. Juve did a masterful job of dragging us into this when we had nothing to do with Moggi's system. Both Lazio and Fiorentina were involved in Moggi's dealings where we were accused of having a similar thing due to Meani having a moan about linesmans decisions in a game we lost.

The thing is Jeff. He is only saying this now. The first thing out of his mouth was the scudetti. We can only wonder admittingly to why he saying what he's saying now. He should have said this first and foremost. I'm not talking about Milan's innocence. I'm talking about giving Juve their due process. It would have been in the best interest if our club did afford our opponents support in that aspect early on. Doing so would not have been a admission of innocence or guilt upon our club. We didnt do it this way. We should have IMO.

Originally Posted by meazza

So we should appeal. Juve did a masterful job of dragging us into this when we had nothing to do with Moggi's system. Both Lazio and Fiorentina were involved in Moggi's dealings where we were accused of having a similar thing due to Meani having a moan about linesmans decisions in a game we lost.

If Milan is innocent, they should appeal even if it's a $1 fine.

Any reason why we are out of the CL? What justification was there? Is it because the points deducted made us inelligible? Sigh. Well... no use being upset than.