All posts re: the Italian Football Scandal (Moggipoli)

Ok very well Warro. I will take and swallow your consideration into this matter. Do you see what my big fear is though? If we consider "half" of the Italian clubs, why are we so dismissive of the other "half"?

I don't know people, I think the damage that Juve has done is more complicated than some of u think.
I mean imagine even that Juve will be relegated to seria b, and we will recieve 2 scudetto titles of 05 and 06, how would we feel??? I mean the fans and the team...
It will be confusing.
Just think about it, when u win it the ordinary way infront of ur own fans on the pitch, u feel the sutisfaction of all the work ur team has done through out the whole season and the feeling is simply fantastic.
But if we simply get it from the accosiation like "oh remember that past two seasons, well we checked few things and u are the champions... here u go", I don't know... it won't be the same.
If Juve realy is guilty and we will get that 2 titles, statisticly speeking the justice will be done and in the years to come when people will look at the numbers it will be the way it's supposed to.
But we the fans that lived this years and followed milan, never will get that real feeling of a well won scudetto... so in that case if Juve is guilty, than they took something that can't never be fully recovered.
It's like someone will kill a very dear person to u, and no matter how the murder will be punished u never will get ur friend back.

Originally Posted by Kui

Ok very well Warro. I will take and swallow your consideration into this matter. Do you see what my big fear is though? If we consider "half" of the Italian clubs, why are we so dismissive of the other "half"?

I completely understand your angst Kui, but again, based on events in the past, it will be, IMO, as Willy said: Much ado about nothing.

Nothing will change, except personnel in certain positions, and if the worst is to transpire, that clubs get relegated, then, this is the reward for cheating, and getting caught.

The Gazetto this morning eliminates Milan from the mix of clubs that could face sanctions, so I say to Serie C2 for all those cheats. If Juve is implicated, then I will forever smile when I hear the words "Derbi de Italia"...if they are ever used again.

To win a scudetto without having to face Juve, who in this "for instance" would be in Serie C (heh heh heh..sounds sooooooo good to me) may diminish the achievement somewhat, but gets us closer to having one more star above our club crest..and as a blinkered AC Milan fanatic...it matters not that the Gobbi didnt play a part.

As a fan of sports (secondary, or third to my love for Milan) I would be somewhat disappointed not to have faced the Zebras...but such is life...it wont happen though(ie the Zebras being relegated...I really dont think so) so this is just idle speculation...

[quote=Warro Bantan]

The Gazetto this morning eliminates Milan from the mix of clubs that could face sanctions, so I say to Serie C2 for all those cheats. If Juve is implicated, then I will forever smile when I hear the words "Derbi de Italia"...if they are ever used again.
QUOTE]

What did they exactly say?

Originally Posted by Warro Bantan

I read an intresting point, (that when Juve and Inter, way back when, finished on the bottom, "changes to the league structure" prevented them from being relegated...how in God´s name can this league be fair...when we get relegated because a couple of our players, not management now, players, fixed the match and gambled on it...where is fairness in all this? We didnt finish bottom, but two big clubs who did avoid relegation...man...I cant even continue with this...its too upsetting.
..

Warro, first and very important thing :

1. In 1913 and 1914 Juventus was hardly a big club !
1898 - Genoa Cricket & Athletic Club
1899 - Genoa Cricket & Athletic Club
1900 - Genoa Cricket & Football Club
1901 - Milan Cricket & FC
1902 - Genoa C&FC
1903 - Genoa C&FC
1904 - Genoa C&FC
1905 - Juventus FC
1906 - Milan FC
1907 - Milan FC
1908 - Pro Vercelli
1909 - Pro Vercelli
1910 - Internazionale
1911 - Pro Vercelli
1912 - Pro Vercelli
1913 - Pro Vercelli
1914 - Casale

One Scudetto in 18 years for Juventus, and it was a team who was almost always fighting against relegation. Without the money and tradition Juve has now.
When you were saying how a big club got away with the relegation, it seems to me as you are mixing this Juve with Juve from 1913. And the difference is huge. So, please tru to see the situation more objective than you're doing, and you'll see that Juve maybe got away from the relegation because of the changes to the league structure, and not because of some conspiracy against Milan.
It was ONLY a coincidence Juve was at the bottom in those years exactly, it certanly wasn't a favour to the "big club" Juventus !
Prove me wrong...no, tell me i'm wrong and i'll believe you. But please be objective when you'll tell me this !

Thanks

[quote=Kui]As should the realm of public opinion especially for a country who's got just a World Cup to worry about with this stigma in the air. So when will we hear from Milan??? Like never.
QUOTE]

BUt I still don't get it. Why do you want to hear from the Milan management? What do you expect them to say?:

"Yeah, kick Juve down to SErie C2"
OR
"We never do such thing"

or how about this? lol, a generic response:

"We appreciate football which should bring fun to us. IT'll be sad if some teams make use of illegal methods to try influence the results in their favors".

Then what?

Jeff...I just read the headlines from channel4.com...

Click here, and read elsewhere (cant remember where) that we were not in those that may face sanctions...sorry

and this from espnsoccernet:

Click here for entire article

Updated: May 11, 2006
Second Italian official quits on phone-tap scandal

MILAN, May 11 (Reuters) - Italian Football Federation vice-President Innocenzo Mazzini has resigned as the scandal surrounding published telephone conversations continues to make waves through the game....

Mazzini has not been put under investigation by any of the probes now looking into Italian football and the role of Moggi in the game....

On Wednesday, Juventus CEO Antonio Giraudo was put under investigation for false accounting.

Judicial sources in Turin said that a magistrates' investigation into Giraudo, related to Juve's transfer dealings, had been underway for some time.

Juventus are already under the spotlight of two magistrates' investigations looking into Moggi's business operations. He is being investigated by magistrates in Naples and Rome in probes into football gambling and the operation of a management company owned by his son Alessandro.

The GEA management firm has nearly 200 players and coaches on its books and Rome magistrates have put them under investigation for `illegal competition with use of threats and violence'.

Juventus, whose owners have declined to give any public backing to Moggi and Giraudo, were due to hold a board meeting later on Thursday.

Sounds juicy enough for Juve and their fans to become increasingly worried...and here I was depressed that we were so close to another title...and now this...there is a God, and he loves his little Bantan!!

Now, let me read next week that Juve are relegated, and I wont even need a Christmas present this year!

Originally Posted by Tony 29

Warro, first and very important thing :

1. In 1913 and 1914 Juventus was hardly a big club !
1898 - Genoa Cricket & Athletic Club
1899 - Genoa Cricket & Athletic Club
1900 - Genoa Cricket & Football Club
1901 - Milan Cricket & FC
1902 - Genoa C&FC
1903 - Genoa C&FC
1904 - Genoa C&FC
1905 - Juventus FC
1906 - Milan FC
1907 - Milan FC
1908 - Pro Vercelli
1909 - Pro Vercelli
1910 - Internazionale
1911 - Pro Vercelli
1912 - Pro Vercelli
1913 - Pro Vercelli
1914 - Casale

One Scudetto in 18 years for Juventus, and it was a team who was almost always fighting against relegation. Without the money and tradition Juve has now.
When you were saying how a big club got away with the relegation, it seems to me as you are mixing this Juve with Juve from 1913. And the difference is huge. So, please tru to see the situation more objective than you're doing, and you'll see that Juve maybe got away from the relegation because of the changes to the league structure, and not because of some conspiracy against Milan.
It was ONLY a coincidence Juve was at the bottom in those years exactly, it certanly wasn't a favour to the "big club" Juventus !
Prove me wrong...no, tell me i'm wrong and i'll believe you. But please be objective when you'll tell me this !

Thanks

It's interesting to see how you can go around and ask people objective when you truly are not.

It's ok to admit that we are biased. It's, perhaps, more important to realize we, as human beings, are biased in most instances.

p.s.: The reason that I'm not responding to your stats on previous page is because, after letting another poster here to read my post, he believes that stats don't speak much because it's just a manipulation. I agree with him and decided to delete my message. In truth, the stats that you have provided me gives me satisfaction because my belief about potential bias is confirmed.

Warro: I think Jeff is asking where did you exactly read that Milan are exempt?

And here could be the answer for Kui:

MILAN - Adriano Galliani supports the theory that the scandal in which football is involved could be "an occasion". 'We need to turn the bad into good,' he said. Therefore we need to introduce new norms and understand what has happened. We need new laws for the next championship. We need a new ethical code that is precise and with clears lines of punishment.'

source: www.acmilan.com

Originally Posted by Tony 29

Warro, first and very important thing :

1. In 1913 and 1914 Juventus was hardly a big club ! ...
1913 - Pro Vercelli
1914 - Casale

When you were saying how a big club got away with the relegation, it seems to me as you are mixing this Juve with Juve from 1913. And the difference is huge. So, please tru to see the situation more objective than you're doing, and you'll see that Juve maybe got away from the relegation because of the changes to the league structure, and not because of some conspiracy against Milan.
It was ONLY a coincidence Juve was at the bottom in those years exactly, it certanly wasn't a favour to the "big club" Juventus !

Prove me wrong...no, tell me i'm wrong and i'll believe you. But please be objective when you'll tell me this !

Thanks

Tony, let me say that my knowledge of the Serie A in its early stages is sketchy at best, and the info I have used (that you are taking exception to)in my posts came from other posters here...

I cant prove you wrong, neither will I tell you...I will take your word that Juve were not the giant they currently are, but you can excuse my thinking that even from way back then, they were getting more than their fair share of "luck"...and for it to also happen to Inter, was for me, too much of a cooincidence..

The fact that Juve didnt get relegated however, can hardly be termed as a conspiracy against Milan, that is not my point...my point is that this "restructuring" was just too convenient...combine it with Inter getting away with relegation again for similar reasons...just doesnt rub me the "right way"...thats all..

Originally Posted by Jeff

It's interesting to see how you can go around and ask people objective when you truly are not.

It's ok to admit that we are biased. It's, perhaps, more important to realize we, as human beings, are biased in most instances.

p.s.: The reason that I'm not responding to your stats on previous page is because, after letting another poster here to read my post, he believes that stats don't speak much because it's just a manipulation. I agree with him and decided to delete my message. In truth, the stats that you have provided me gives me satisfaction because my belief about potential bias is confirmed.

May i take this as : " I was wrong when i said that Juve got more fauls, penalties, and free-kicks, and they got less yellow and red cards "

I was really waiting for your answer, but it seems that whenever the facts are against you, you always change the subject and even try to make me the bad one who is manipulating people.

You can say :Juve are thieves and fixers etc..
I can't say No, i can't say Yes, because i have no idea, and so do you.
You can say Milan are pure as a tear etc etc..
I can't say they are , i can't say they aren't

But when i say that Milan got more calls than Juve, or that since Moggi is in Juve, Juve was better than Milan both in Italy and Europe, or when i say that Juve wasn't a big club in Italy in 1913..then you can say Yes ...but you never do, and you're doing the oposite :You're saying No !!!

Simple questions people, please answer it. You don't have to answer it, but then i'm winning here in this debate of ours, and you don't like that, do you ? :

1. How come since Moggi is in Juventus, Juve was better in Europe than Milan was ?

2. Lets accept your assumption that refs are helping Juve and they aren't helping Milan..
then how come Juve got 63 yellow cards and Milan 52, how come they both got 3 red cards, how come Juve made more fauls than suffered, and Milan has the oposite, how come Milan got 8 penalties and Juve only 5 ??????

3. As another member here mentioned it many times :
How come Milan won 7 Scudettos in 20 years and Juve only 6, when Juventus was fixing all those Scudetto's !

But please give me normal answers, do not give me the irony i got in many of your answers before !

Originally Posted by Warro Bantan

..my point is that this "restructuring" was just too convenient...combine it with Inter getting away with relegation again for similar reasons...just doesnt rub me the "right way"...thats all..

Sorry Warro, i didn't know you're not informed about early history of Calcio. Nether was i , but internet can teach you a lot

Listen, there were more than 15 league structure changes in Italian football history, and Juve was involved in only 2 of them. If i try to find all the clubs who got away with the new rules, maybe even Milan's name will come out.
But in no means i will find it suspicious and say that it was injustice or something.
I guess we misunderstood eachother, lol

Originally Posted by Hasan Rossonero

Warro: I think Jeff is asking where did you exactly read that Milan are exempt?

As I think I explained above Hasan, I dont recall exactly where I read it, could be a page or so back in this very thread...you know, short term memory loss and all that...

Originally Posted by Warro Bantan

As I think I explained above Hasan, I dont recall exactly where I read it, could be a page or so back in this very thread...you know, short term memory loss and all that...

I hear you bro...we are getting old

The best we can hope for is to keep our conduct clean unlike the
of Italian football.