Winter Mercato

More or less I think we agree on everything....but you guys must recognise that CR7 is three years younger than Kaka.....and while he isn't in the same class he is an amazing player nonetheless.
I think it's arrogant of us to say "once he's given the space.....blah blah blah" All good attackers are good or at least average in unlocking tight defences. In the first leg we gave him very tittle space as well and i think he did good too.

Personally I don't think he will truly surpass Kaka because his game is based on tricks and speed (as you rightly said). Having seen Platini, Zidane, Ronaldo, Baggio and a little guy called Maradonna, SerieA teams are not over-awed by these. Also I have more appreciation for Kaka's football mind/footbal intelligence if you will...than CR7's. Kaka played this was since he was 22 and though he has improved a lot since comming here...I could reasonably see a 22 year old Kaka do almost the same thing last night that the more polished 25 year old did.

I just don't think it's wise/sportmanlike to not acknowledge another's ability because they lost the battle. There is the however small possibility that th could grow to surpass Kaka and if only for this reason we must respect others. As for freekicks....I really don't know what is my obsession with them to be honest but I think that almost all the truly great attackers were good or at least decent with them.

They're almost equal in the air too. CR has scored quite a few headded goals recently...however if I were a defender I would rather mark CR7 because he is so much more frail than our boy

Originally Posted by icculus

dont mean to interupt the cr7-kaka debate, but :

trying to get this thread back on topic, ha?

Not sure how "real" this rumour is as it was The SUN that came up with it in the first place.

He is an immense CD, IMO that is, but I am not sure about his commitment as a player ... never liked it when one player's "love" for a team, any team, is measured in greens.

I personally would prefer Alex over Terry, although they both are fine, fine defenders.

Originally Posted by zlatanov

trying to get this thread back on topic, ha?

Not sure how "real" this rumour is as it was The SUN that came up with it in the first place.

He is an immense CD, IMO that is, but I am not sure about his commitment as a player ... never liked it when one player's "love" for a team, any team, is measured in greens.

I personally would prefer Alex over Terry, although they both are fine, fine defenders.

In Alex and Terry I'd take whoever is faster...we need some speed at te back to compensate fore Bonera who is otherwise an excellent defender

Instead of opening two new threads I have decided to post both the stories in one thread. Here they are:

1. Just when I thought that Gattuso has finally decided to stay in Milan and forget Man Utd for once,this story has offered us a new episode. It seems like this story will never end and Milan players favourite destiny is Premier league.

http://www.goal.com/en/Articolo.aspx?ContenutoId=294839


2. Well read this article and it say it all.Sounds really good to me.

http://www.goal.com/en/Articolo.aspx?ContenutoId=294772

None of this will happen. We better continue mercato discussion on mercato thread...

First of all, i don't want to be understood wrongly. I see Kaka as THE ONLY player who'll come close to/ or will be bigger than Maradona and Zidane. I don't see CR, not even Dinho comming close to them.
I'm not replying because you guys are overhyping Kaka, because you're not. The kid deserves every single compliment.
I reply because i see CR underestimated and i feel last 2 matches against Milan have huge influence on Your opinion.
Yes, CR was very bad, but why don't you ask yourself why was he so bad ?
Maybe because there was a guy named Gattuso next to him ? I can't prove it at this moment, but i think Kaka wouldn't have shined so bright if he had Gattuso following him all the time, like he did to CR.
The only time someone outplayed Rino in last years was Ronaldinho in Milano, last year.

Even Kaka didn't prove himself yet against top class defence.
Like i said, Kaka will also have the hardest time against Gattuso-Nesta , just like he was invisibile against Makelele-Vieira-Thuram-Gallas at the WC, and he never outplayed Vieira-Emerson-Cannavaro-Thuram-Zambrotta defence in serie A.
That's why i'm saying not to underestimate CR. The critics on him are very harsh, and i feel it's mostly because of the last match. It's not fair to judge him now.

Zidane at 22 was somewhere in Bordaux and wasn't even playing for French NT. Maradona at 22 was an extra talent who choked at the WC 1982 , just like Kaka was only big talent at 22.
CR at 22 is one of the best 5 players in the world, and it's not only because of the hype, it's because he deserved it. You can't expect him to be the leader who'll single handedly bring trophies. Noone did smthg like that at 22. Give him 3 more years to get the experience ( most of the all time best footballers gave their best at 25-27 years. Like Maradona, Zidane, Baggio etc ) and then we shall discuss how good CR is !

Terry is pretty slow but makes up for it with positional sense, he is one of those annoying defenders who always seems to be in the way. To be honest i havent seen enough of PSV to know if Alex is faster...

Ledley King is a top defender and quite underrated, he is very capable of making the step up to the big teams and i would love to see Milan go for him. If they want someone a bit cheaper then Titus 'Shambles' Bramble is available on a free this summer

Originally Posted by Tony29.

, and he never outplayed Vieira-Emerson-Cannavaro-Thuram-Zambrotta defence in serie A.
!

KAka' outplayed Viera every time he played against him. I was personaly at the San Siro against Inter when Milan lost 4-3 but KAka' toyed with Vieira.
Against Juve when Milan won at the San Siro 3-1, KAka' also destroyed Emerson-Vieira in the middle. They both were booked on him and Vieira should have been send off qas well, but didnt. If you look correctly, you will notice that Emerson NEVER managed to hold up Kaka' the way Rino did to C.Ronaldo.

Correct as usual Tony

Ronaldo had a shadow permanently in Gattuso and was up against Milans top defenders bar Maldini. in contrast none of Utds central midfielders are naturally defensive, even Fletcher is more of a playmaker just converted for the role, thats why Utd want Hargreaves so much. The defence too was weak and disjointed, with no leader and no organisation, it was easy pickings for him really.

drucurl and Tony, I don't think I'm underestimating Ronaldo at all. He is currently a very good player, and moreso, he's very talented. However, his game right now is based purely on his ability on the ball to run at defenders and his pace. I certainly don't rate him as a top 5 in the world player.

His age, I don't think is a massive factor either, because he's at this point a potentially great player, but potential is one thing, realising it is another, and right now, I'm not convinced he'll ever become what people think he will.

His footballing brain is decent (but nothing special) at best from what I've seen, but he doesn't manage to be able to deconstruct an opposition if they figure out how to stop his basic game, and he becomes inneffectual. I also think the hype surrounding him is similar to Rooney, players who in the media are tipped to become the next Pele or Maradona, but rarely do so. This season he's picking out his passes much better, but I've not seen anything to suggest he can pick out the killer pass or make the play that only select few can.

Best comparison I can give is Denilson. The Brazilian was supposedly going to become one of the very greats, he went to Spain on a world record deal and became one of the greatest flops in the game.

Should Ronaldo in the next few years mature and develop depth to his game, he has all the possibilities to become a great player, but right now I don't think he's doing enough to be put that high, nor do I think his personality will ever get him that high. If he can prove me wrong, then so be it. I'm not basing my opinion on his performance in the past few matches, but rather what I've seen of him since he joined United (and a little from when he was back in Sporting).

About Terry, I wouldn't take it seriously. The Sun is not a good source.

Originally Posted by mrki

KAka' outplayed Viera every time he played against him. I was personaly at the San Siro against Inter when Milan lost 4-3 but KAka' toyed with Vieira.
Against Juve when Milan won at the San Siro 3-1, KAka' also destroyed Emerson-Vieira in the middle. They both were booked on him and Vieira should have been send off qas well, but didnt. If you look correctly, you will notice that Emerson NEVER managed to hold up Kaka' the way Rino did to C.Ronaldo.

No Marko, he never outplayed them.
He wasn't outplayed by them like CR was by Gattuso, but he never did anything special against them.
He did score against Juve last year but Milan wasn't all over Juve on that match. 4 shots 3 goals and a pathetic display by Chimenti at the goal and Juve as a team offensively.
He was completely stopped by them in 2004/05 and had one solid game in 2005/06 against Juve's defence.
Against Inter this year, hmmmm, Kaka was in Vieira+Cambiasso's pocket in the first half and gave a solid display only when Materazzi was sent off.
Vieira/Makelele owned him and Dinho at the world cup.

Until now, Kaka never outplayed a solid and organized defence, never. He has a chance to do so against Liverpool, and even if he won't "rape" them in Athens, he'll do that against some great defence in following years. But until now, he never did anything of a kind ( like he did to Bayern's , ManU's, Celtics, Catania's defence)

The evil juventino is right. Great as he is kaka rarely rapes world class defences. I think he did well against inter and bayern this year. Most me our current stars (c.ronaldo messi etc) virtouso performances have come against smaller teams. Maybe this is where rooney gets his props from, for scoring against the arsenals and milan and liverpools etc

Originally Posted by drucurl

The evil juventino is right.

I know i am

Originally Posted by drucurl

Great as he is kaka rarely rapes world class defences. I think he did well against inter and bayern this year. Most me our current stars (c.ronaldo messi etc) virtouso performances have come against smaller teams.

I honestly believe that Kaka will start destroying even the world class defences. I'm 100% sure about that actually. Liverpool in Athens is the next oportunity and i have a feeling he'll do it against them.
But yes, it's a fact he didn't do it yet.
I don't think he'll be "Thierry Henry" . The best in the world but helpless against the best. Kaka will be something special when you'll talk about him to your kids in 10-15 years !

Originally Posted by drucurl

Maybe this is where rooney gets his props from, for scoring against the arsenals and milan and liverpools etc

I don't know about Rooney but i know that it's exactly why i concider Zidane to be the greatest ever in my time (and i've seen Maradona, and i perfectly remember WC 1986).
To score against the best and to score important goals against the best makes you a great one.

WC Final 1998 , EURO 2000 quarter and semifinals , CL 2002 Final , EURO 2004 against England in last minute, WC 2006 . Noone else can cope with this record ( don't dare mantioning Ronaldo, Dru. He's not even close ). Add the important goals he scored to Barcelona, Valencia, Milan, Inter, Roma...

Yes, Zizzou is the greatest of them all

Originally Posted by Tony29.

Until now, Kaka never outplayed a solid and organized defence, never. He has a chance to do so against Liverpool, and even if he won't "rape" them in Athens, he'll do that against some great defence in following years.

NO PLAYER can ever rape a great defence, if he did then that defence is not great. Go and look at the games of Italy-France, even Zidane on his best form can't rape a organised midfield, nobody can do so IMO. They can just try to create a few half chances and hope for the best. The difference is that great attackers create openings in these good defence for his teammates to take advantage of and that is where CR fail so terribly, he just doesn't understand soccer is a team game.

CR and Kaka is just like ronaldinho and Zidane. Everybody got their perferences but i will take Zidane anyday over ronaldinho. I hope Kaka will be like Zidane who will alway be remembered as a football great. Kaka has got the talent and personality to be even better than Zidane and he need to recognise that Milan is the team for him to do so. CR IMO is just like ronaldinho, if CR improve his footballing brain and start playing for the team, he can be another ronaldinho, not as great as Zidane but still a very good player.

If this is the way you look at things than we can say that no one EVER outplayed any great defence... There is no point of talking like that. What do you even mean by expression "outplayed"? Becouse for sure, FOR SURE, Kaka' outplayed Cambiasso-Vieira in that match I am talking about. He was all over the pitch and won 80% of duels. there is no DM in the world or CD that can play 1 on 1 with KAka', no one can stop him by himself. Of course, solid and concentrated defence can stop any man in the world, even Ronaldinho and Kaka' at their best. That is normal thing. he is not a superman. But if he keeps playing like this, and I've never seen any player play efficient and disciplined like this ( did Ronaldino or Zidane ever run 11000 m in 90min? ), we can have the best no.10 up there with Maradona and Pele. Aldough some will say im way off the line by saying this.