Week 10 - U.C. Sampdoria vs A.C. Milan - The Empire Strikes Back (or so we hope)

Originally Posted by drucurl

I admire your depth of footballing knowledge Dev, I learn more from you every day

Thanks, though in all honesty I still consider my knowledge quite limited.

Originally Posted by ACMILAN1983

Gourcuff - Showed why he is at Milan, but also why he doesn't play too often.

Sorry but that's a STUPID thing to say. Brocchi, Cafu, Favalli, Inzaghi (in Serie A) are rubbish in most matches as well and as I keep saying there is no upside to them playing because at this stage of their careers they will not improve only decline.

Great goal, some excellent touches showing a lot of class and good positional play. However, also held the ball or wanted the extra touch at times, then showed a lot of immaturity at the end with an awful foul when the game was already won and continuously tried to say things to Maggio, increasing tensions when really he should have walked away after apologising.

That type negativity is why our season has been such a disaster. We made mistakes with Donadel, Saudati, Donati and Foggia. You cannot expect a young player to reach the level of players who have won EVERYTHING there is to win in the game overnight. The more Gourcuff plays the more familiar he becomes with his team-mates and the opposition. He can easily reach Seedorf level. He has the talent.

Originally Posted by Mehdi

Sorry but that's a STUPID thing to say. Brocchi, Cafu, Favalli, Inzaghi (in Serie A) are rubbish in most matches as well and as I keep saying there is no upside to them playing because at this stage of their careers they will not improve only decline.

That type negativity is why our season has been such a disaster. We made mistakes with Donadel, Saudati, Donati and Foggia. You cannot expect a young player to reach the level of players who have won EVERYTHING there is to win in the game overnight. The more Gourcuff plays the more familiar he becomes with his team-mates and the opposition. He can easily reach Seedorf level. He has the talent.

Your opinion I guess, but I don't see how Gourcuff's immaturity at that level has anything to do with the older players you mention. Brocchi though hardly great showed his reason for being in the squad, as did Favalli last year (not this year yet), which isn't the same reason as to why Gourcuff's here.

Donadel, Saudati, Donati and Foggia? Of all of them, really only Foggia looks like he'd actually have a shot of playing more in the side than Gourcuff or Brocchi do. The rest are at best are squad players, but also unwilling to sit on the bench (Donadel left for this reason).

I've said in the past Gourcuff needs to first mature in training. It would be nice if he could play more, but Carlo can't take risks too often in his position so the guy has to show he is trustworthy to Carlo. Added to that, I have never suggested that he is expected to play at the level of Seedorf or the other established stars, and on the contrary I've always said we need patience with him, maybe even a few years yet before we start getting the results we hope for. I'm not sure why you got the idea I felt that way.

Originally Posted by ACMILAN1983

Your opinion I guess, but I don't see how Gourcuff's immaturity at that level has anything to do with the older players you mention.

When did I say it had anything to do with the other players? And what on Earth do you expect from a 21 year old in only his second season outside of his own country in one of the most decorated teams of this or any era in the sports history? Seriously. What do you expect? Of course he's immature, he's 21.

Brocchi though hardly great showed his reason for being in the squad, as did Favalli last year (not this year yet), which isn't the same reason as to why Gourcuff's here.

Brocchi and Favalli give Milan nothing. If they weren't at Milan they'd be playing for a teams like Livorno or Genoa.

Donadel, Saudati, Donati and Foggia? Of all of them, really only Foggia looks like he'd actually have a shot of playing more in the side than Gourcuff or Brocchi do. The rest are at best are squad players, but also unwilling to sit on the bench (Donadel left for this reason).

Donadel left because he played ONE game in 2 years. All of the above would be useful squad players and that's exactly my point and what we lack.

I've said in the past Gourcuff needs to first mature in training.

Training is no substitute for real games and he doesn't need to mature, all he needs is games.

It would be nice if he could play more, but Carlo can't take risks too often in his position so the guy has to show he is trustworthy to Carlo.

The only thing anyone has to show Carlo is his birth certificate. If Gourcuff's read 11 July 1976 instead of 1986 or he was Brazilian instead of French he would be playing.

Added to that, I have never suggested that he is expected to play at the level of Seedorf or the other established stars, and on the contrary I've always said we need patience with him, maybe even a few years yet before we start getting the results we hope for. I'm not sure why you got the idea I felt that way.

Because of your idiotic justification for Ancelotti making ANOTHER mistake with a talented young player.

Originally Posted by Mehdi

Training is no substitute for real games and he doesn't need to mature, all he needs is games.



The only thing anyone has to show Carlo is his birth certificate. If Gourcuff's read 11 July 1976 instead of 1986 or he was Brazilian instead of French he would be playing.



Because of your idiotic justification for Ancelotti making ANOTHER mistake with a talented young player.

My two cents:

1) Maturity as a person, not as an experienced player.

2) Kaka` started playing when he was very young and squeezed Rui Costa, who was older then, out of the first team.

3) Watch your language, please.

Originally Posted by Jeff

My two cents:

1) Maturity as a person, not as an experienced player.

Same difference he's 21.

2) Kaka` started playing when he was very young and squeezed Rui Costa, who was older then, out of the first team.

Difference being as a Brazilian he was made to feel welcome by the other Brazilians at the club and they shared a common language. Who are the other Frenchman at Milan? The Aubameyang brothers and now Ba. They're not in a position to tell him to break into the first team!

Originally Posted by Jeff

My two cents:

1) Maturity as a person, not as an experienced player.

2) Kaka` started playing when he was very young and squeezed Rui Costa, who was older then, out of the first team.

3) Watch your language, please.

You're not going to find too many Kaka's/Ronaldo's(brazilian) though. Those guys were phenomenons. Most young players need to be nurtured and though not necessarily starting, play at like 25 mins at the end of each game when our starters are most times visibly tired. Something like what Barcelona is doing with Dos Santos, using him sparingly(about 20-30 mins per game) and the occasional start when Ronaldinho/Messi need a rest. And he's only 18.

Originally Posted by Mehdi

When did I say it had anything to do with the other players? And what on Earth do you expect from a 21 year old in only his second season outside of his own country in one of the most decorated teams of this or any era in the sports history? Seriously. What do you expect? Of course he's immature, he's 21.

Brocchi and Favalli give Milan nothing. If they weren't at Milan they'd be playing for a teams like Livorno or Genoa.

Donadel left because he played ONE game in 2 years. All of the above would be useful squad players and that's exactly my point and what we lack.

Training is no substitute for real games and he doesn't need to mature, all he needs is games.

The only thing anyone has to show Carlo is his birth certificate. If Gourcuff's read 11 July 1976 instead of 1986 or he was Brazilian instead of French he would be playing.

Because of your idiotic justification for Ancelotti making ANOTHER mistake with a talented young player.

Well, you mention names like Brocchi and Favalli as rubbish in most matches in a post talking about giving Gourcuff chances. Therefore, you're comparing their role in the squad to Gourcuff's when the two are completely different. At 21 I don't expect a great deal from Gourcuff (I thought I made this clear in my last post), but for the same reason he can't be played regularly, as Carlo hasn't got the opportunity to take such risks at Milan.

Favalli and Brocchi as opposed to Gourcuff provide a reliability, as you know they won't make the same mistakes as Gourcuff (even if they lack the quality). Let's take Favalli aside as Gourcuff can't play LB anyway. Brocchi doesn't lose the ball often, nor will he hold it longer than needed. Defensively he's solid and offensively again he's solid. He's not a superstar, but he's a solid backup. At this point Gourcuff's not reliable nor solid, he's a young raw talent that needs development to mature into a superstar.

Donadel was at Milan when under 20, it's only natural he barely got to play. After that he's been on loan at other clubs for 5 years, so it's not like Milan have been unfair to him, he's not played for us because he's played elsewhere. Now he was given the chance to return to Milan this past summer (probably was expected to perform Emerson's role), but desired first team football (meaning he'd have to beat out Ambro or Rino for the spot), so we simply let him go.

Gourcuff doesn't need to mature? lol, I guess I must be watching a different player, because as far as I've seen, he needs to mature both as a person and a player. As for training not being a substitute for real games, at a club like Milan he's got to earn to play in the matches, Carlo won't risk him as I said above.

lol, somehow I get the impression you don't like me very much

^ but Dev don't you agree that our mentality can also be a double edged sword?? I mean you speak of 20/ 21 like it's sooo young....meanwhile SAF has CR7 and Wazza playing as teenagers, a 20 year old Nani and a 19 year old Anderson...... Barca is soon going to keep GDS as a regular and who knows maybe Bojan too.....then of course there's always Aguero who I think would NEVER have been given the chance under Ancelotti. I mean the guy refused to experiment with Henry

Originally Posted by ACMILAN1983

Well, you mention names like Brocchi and Favalli as rubbish in most matches in a post talking about giving Gourcuff chances. Therefore, you're comparing their role in the squad to Gourcuff's when the two are completely different. At 21 I don't expect a great deal from Gourcuff (I thought I made this clear in my last post), but for the same reason he can't be played regularly, as Carlo hasn't got the opportunity to take such risks at Milan.

Dev I don't get what *risk* there is. Consider this scenario. We're losing 1-0 at home vs some random team (usual case scenario this season). We NEED an attacking option off the bench because Seedorf and Pirlo are tired from playing 4 games in a row(also a usual case scenario). Why bring on Brocchi over Gourcuff when Gourcuff can offer more in the attacking department ? Don't forget Brocchi is the one who lost the ball that led to Man U's 3rd goal so I wouldn't be one to rush and call Brocchi reliable. Let's also not forget that when Gourcuff has played, he's been on par with everybody else on the field. Indeed his form isn't so great so as to shove Seedorf out of the starting 11 (like he did when he just came) but Seedorf is getting older and can't play as many games in a row as before, so he does need some rest from time to time. We'll see what's done vs Torino.

Originally Posted by drucurl

^ but Dev don't you agree that our mentality can also be a double edged sword?? I mean you speak of 20/ 21 like it's sooo young....meanwhile SAF has CR7 and Wazza playing as teenagers, a 20 year old Nani and a 19 year old Anderson...... Barca is soon going to keep GDS as a regular and who knows maybe Bojan too.....then of course there's always Aguero who I think would NEVER have been given the chance under Ancelotti. I mean the guy refused to experiment with Henry

I don't think the mentality is a double edged sword, other than youngsters may be impatient at the club. Who's Wazza? Anyway, with CR7 and Rooney, SAF had to endure a couple of seasons without really challenging for anything before they stepped up last season (Rooney this year I'd say, partly thanks to Tevez), whilst Nani and Anderson are still being introduced into the side. Barca have brought in Messi (can be argued a phenomenon like Kaka), whilst GDS isn't playing regularly yet, so I don't think he can be counted. However, our situation has been a bit different to Barca and Man U so far who can afford to play the youngsters every so often, because even though they aren't doing great, they're challenging in the league, whilst we've had a nightmare so far. If Gourcuff was able to make the difference, then by all means he should play, but at this point he doesn't add much.

Originally Posted by Mystik

Dev I don't get what *risk* there is. Consider this scenario. We're losing 1-0 at home vs some random team (usual case scenario this season). We NEED an attacking option off the bench because Seedorf and Pirlo are tired from playing 4 games in a row(also a usual case scenario). Why bring on Brocchi over Gourcuff when Gourcuff can offer more in the attacking department ? Don't forget Brocchi is the one who lost the ball that led to Man U's 3rd goal so I wouldn't be one to rush and call Brocchi reliable. Let's also not forget that when Gourcuff has played, he's been on par with everybody else on the field. Indeed his form isn't so great so as to shove Seedorf out of the starting 11 (like he did when he just came) but Seedorf is getting older and can't play as many games in a row as before, so he does need some rest from time to time. We'll see what's done vs Torino.

Truth be told Brocchi hasn't really been brought off the bench more than Gourcuff to try and make the difference in matches (he's had more starts though). Brocchi may have had a poor game against Man U last season, but this is where my point about quality comes into play. He's a solid player, not a great player and Man U are a team that can take advantages of a weak spot in a team. Brocchi did make a mistake, but he doesn't do it often, whereas Gourcuff has fairly regularly made mistakes in comparison. I feel certain that as the season goes on, if Gourcuff is working hard in training and learning regularly, then we will see him more.

Originally Posted by ACMILAN1983

At 21 I don't expect a great deal from Gourcuff (I thought I made this clear in my last post), but for the same reason he can't be played regularly, as Carlo hasn't got the opportunity to take such risks at Milan.

How is introducing an attacking midfielder when we need to score a risk?

Favalli and Brocchi as opposed to Gourcuff provide a reliability, as you know they won't make the same mistakes as Gourcuff (even if they lack the quality). Let's take Favalli aside as Gourcuff can't play LB anyway. Brocchi doesn't lose the ball often, nor will he hold it longer than needed. Defensively he's solid and offensively again he's solid. He's not a superstar, but he's a solid backup. At this point Gourcuff's not reliable nor solid, he's a young raw talent that needs development to mature into a superstar.

How is playing Brocchi and Favalli going to help when we need to score a risk?

Donadel was at Milan when under 20, it's only natural he barely got to play. After that he's been on loan at other clubs for 5 years, so it's not like Milan have been unfair to him, he's not played for us because he's played elsewhere.

Again you're talking complete rubbish. He was a regular at Lecce and Parma and has made 81 Serie A appearances in three seasons for Fiorentina.

Now he was given the chance to return to Milan this past summer (probably was expected to perform Emerson's role), but desired first team football (meaning he'd have to beat out Ambro or Rino for the spot), so we simply let him go.

What on Earth are you talking about? He was SOLD to Fiorentina in 2005. It's a good job you're not coach, Kaka' would be sat on the bench.

Gourcuff doesn't need to mature? lol, I guess I must be watching a different player, because as far as I've seen, he needs to mature both as a person and a player. As for training not being a substitute for real games, at a club like Milan he's got to earn to play in the matches, Carlo won't risk him as I said above.

The fact that Carlo doesn't take risks is why we are where we are in Serie A. Gourcuff needs to play and he needs to play a lot more than Donadel, Donati, Foggia and Saudati did before we make another expensive mistake.

lol, somehow I get the impression you don't like me very much

I don't like people who defend the indefensible.

Originally Posted by Mehdi

I don't like people who defend the indefensible.

How about a deal then? we don't reply to each others posts because quite frankly like I said in the gaming thread, I think you speak gibberish and again you clearly at times don't seem to understand what I'm saying.

Originally Posted by ACMILAN1983

How about a deal then? we don't reply to each others posts because quite frankly like I said in the gaming thread, I think you speak gibberish and again you clearly at times don't seem to understand what I'm saying.

You really are full of it aren't you? I speak gibberish but you excuse my responses to your views as a lack of understanding on my part! I understand perfectly, I happen to think you're full of crap as, as you have shown in the gaming thread, don't like having blinkered views challenged with facts.

Originally Posted by Mehdi

You really are full of it aren't you? I speak gibberish but you excuse my responses to your views as a lack of understanding on my part! I understand perfectly, I happen to think you're full of crap as, as you have shown in the gaming thread, don't like having blinkered views challenged with facts.

Your response to my point about Donadel shows you didn't understand me, seeing as your argument is how Donadel has been a regular at other clubs, when I never actually said he wasn't, nor was that anything to do with my argument. However, I'll admit I made a mistake with Donadel being given a chance last summer, I was getting him mixed up with Donati (same situation though). Also quite why you'd think I'd bench Kaka makes no sense, as I said he was a phenomenon before and that's why he got into the side so early.

Good for you if you think I'm full of it, I've grown to think even less of your posts after your responses to me. And your facts aren't facts at all, I've said why, you don't understand my responses and yet you keep harping on. This is the last response you'll get from me.