Winter Mercato

Hmmm, looks like Lucas Pazzini to Liverpool is now official. It's confirmed in Liverpool's official site.

Too bad. I wanted him in Fiorentina.
Now you guys see that not only players from serie A leave Italy, but even players from other leagues prefer EPL and la liga.

u talking about Giampaolo Pazzini ? ?

or about this guy from brasil Lucas ?

Originally Posted by zlatanov

My guess is that Lucas is making a mistake ... I expect to see him gunning for a move away from England in 2 years or so as I doubt a young Brazilian would be thrilled by the life style there and dif in cultures.
The football phylosophy is also a bit too "distant" from what he knows and above all I really don't see him getting much space with players like Grerrad, Alonso, Sissoko, Mascherano already there even if one of them is indeed sold (Alonso I think has shown some interest in going back to Spain ).
Add to that the not -so exciting football practiced by Pool and pretty much I expect nothing but frustration for the guy.

I wouldn't be so sure about all of that. Why would he go there in the first place if he had any doubts about the lifestyle, the type of football Liverpool play and the football on offer in the Premiership? Could it possibly be that now Liverpool finally have the finances to go after their first choice players instead of 2nd or 3rd choices, they will get the types of player that can produce the football all Liverpool fans want to see. I think you're making too many assumptions here and that the Premiership and England in general isn't that bad a place to 'learn' some new aspects about the game. The English games suits his box-to-box running and no doubt he'll have asked Gilberto Silva and Denilson a bit about the lifestyle. Could it also be that he might actually like Benitez? Wenger gets all the praise about unearthing talents, but Benitez's scouting is almost as good and you hardly hear a thing about it. Finally the prospect of playing with some great central midfielders and the fact the club is now on the up with new investment and future new ground makes Liverpool an attractive offer right now.

Originally Posted by rosoneri_11

Brazileiro i have some questions for you.
1) Who do you think is better player, and who would fit better at Milan Diego or Anderson?
2)Who do you think is better and would fit better at Milan Sobis or Pato?
3)Do you think that milan loosing Sobis was a big mistake?I personaly say yes.I'm a big fan of that player and i know that he can become a world class striker.I think he choose the wrong club to go, like tevez done.

rosonery_11,

1- IMO both are amazing talents!! It´s hard to say who is better...but if I have to chose, would be Anderson. I´m not taking anything from Diego, but Anderson has more strenght and versatility. Diego is more of a pure playmaker, and is brilliant there, as we are seeing in Werder. But the guy really struggle in Porto playing out of his position(like Robinho playing as RMD in Madrid), because the coach put him in a 3 man MID(Dutch like).

So, if Diego comes to Milan, we have to play a pair of Diego and kaká behind one striker, and besides Kaká goals this season, IMO he´s at his best behind two strikers....and I can´t see Diego coming to Milan to be a bench player.

On the other hand, Anderson has the versatility and strenght to play in a Seedorf role(he started as a LB in football) in the near future...and also, is a great playmaker. So, he can be that LMD in Acelloti scheme, backup Kaká and also play as a false second striker...

2-IMO Pato...I don´t want to jinx the kid, but Pato is one of the most impressive fowards that I saw "to born" in brazilian football. Pato isn´t not only amazing with the ball on his feets...the kid is also great in aerial game.
Also, Pato height is deceptive. If I´m not wrong he´s listed at 5´11´or 6´0´´, and I can see this boy growing a little more...and with a litlle more bulk, this guy will be unstopble!!!
By the way, Pato play more strong than his body, shine in BIG games, and I can see in the future he becoming a Sheva type of foward(being able to play as CF or support striker).

3-IMO Loosing Sobis for Oliveira was a big mistake. But I don´t see Sobis as a future WC striker. I saw Sobis for the first time in sub-20 WC, and since that time he´s the same type of player. He has the talent, but can´t put all together and becoming a WC player.
Look rosoneri_11, I´m not bashing Sobis, is just that IMO he never will be a great one....but maybe I´m wrong, and this already happened some times

Originally Posted by Jim_UK

I wouldn't be so sure about all of that. Why would he go there in the first place if he had any doubts about the lifestyle, the type of football Liverpool play and the football on offer in the Premiership?

money ... Lucas is still a young player and these are the ones most easily lured by the prospect of signing their first BIG contract in their career ... and I am sure the money he would be getting there is times more than when he is getting now.
For the same reason, a player will take the best concrete offer he has NOW and will hardly think about other possibilities or possible consequences - like not fitting in, not adjusting, having too much competitiona nd not enough space in the team - as if he waits the offer that is now on the table could well be gone tomorrow.

Could it possibly be that now Liverpool finally have the finances to go after their first choice players instead of 2nd or 3rd choices, they will get the types of player that can produce the football all Liverpool fans want to see. I think you're making too many assumptions here and that the Premiership and England in general isn't that bad a place to 'learn' some new aspects about the game. The English games suits his box-to-box running and no doubt he'll have asked Gilberto Silva and Denilson a bit about the lifestyle.

or in the same way he could have talked to the other many players who failed to adjust to that lifestyle ... either way, do you really believe this played a major role in his choice given that Pool were probably the one major team with a major contract offer on the table as opposed to a bucnh of other clubs who were reportedly showing interest but nothing concrete.

I am not saying there is nothing to learn in the EPL, but that he may very well find it dif to adjust to a very dif approach to football and lifestyle and so on ... his problem would be finding a way to fit in, not really a matter of whether he has something new to learn or not.

Could it also be that he might actually like Benitez? Wenger gets all the praise about unearthing talents, but Benitez's scouting is almost as good and you hardly hear a thing about it. Finally the prospect of playing with some great central midfielders and the fact the club is now on the up with new investment and future new ground makes Liverpool an attractive offer right now.

I doubt he knows Benitez to the point of that being a deciding factor in his choice ... again, number one priority is the big contract with a European team every young and unproven player dreams of ... it's more or less obvious that a big team like Pool will have a good coach.
As for the players he will find in Pool - that's exactly the heart of of what I think will turn out to be Lucas' problem there - too many quality players with similar, not to say the same characteristics and all of them fighting for 2 CM positions ... not exactly a recipe for success for a young player who is likely to take his time to adjust to team and country and is totally unproven in European football hence not much chance for the coach to stick with him over the other excellent choices he has in CM.

I just happen to think you're being quite dismissive about the whole thing, but anyway, moving on.

Originally Posted by Jim_UK

I just happen to think you're being quite dismissive about the whole thing, but anyway, moving on.

I am not saying that what I said above will definitely happen or that there is no chance he will suceed in EPL and Pool but I do think that this transfer happened a bit too quickly and the money invloved were a bit too much to allow him a more sober and not hurried assessment of what would be really best for him as the next step in a young player's career ...

Originally Posted by Jim_UK

Oliveira + cash for Buffon, who would honestly turn that down?

Looking from Milan's perspective i suppose ?
Because i don't know who would honestly accept something like that. Would you accept RO+money for Buffon if Buffon is in Milan.
-----------------------

Zlat, just like you, i'd like serie A stronger than the other leagues. But looking at where the talent and the quality players go lately, Italy is slowly becoming inferior to La Liga and especially EPL.
It's all great for Milan if they win CL. Yes, they can buy stars. But it's only about Milan and Inter who can now compete with EPL teams.
Super power like Juve, great teams from the last 5-7 years Lazio, Roma, Parma, Fiorentina have no chance challenging ( Chelsea and ManUtd apart) teams like Arsenal, Liverpool even Totenham.
And what's left for Udinese, Empoli, Sampdoria or Chievo ? Do you honestly think they stand a chance against Bolton, New Castle, Manchester City etc if they want the same player ?

Ok, i'll leave Lucas aside ( although Rafa Benitez said how Pool has "beaten" the top European teams from different leagues who were after Lucas in last days).
But lets then make a list of extra talents and top class players who joined serie A in last 3 seasons and players who went to Spain or England :

Zlatan Ibrahimovic and Patrick Vieira ( and this was thanx to the "enemy" of Italian football, Moggi) and maybe Maicon - who else ?
Ronaldo ? One of the best for sure but he would have never joined an Italian team if Real didn't literally expelled him from Spain.
Who else, really ?

While the best Italian teams were buying Boumsong, Ricardo Oliveira, Taddei, Wilhelmsson, very old Luis Figo, Maxwell, Solari,Cribari, Mudingayi Kroldrup and "top talents" like Reginaldo and Grimi ( i wasn't chosing to name this players. These are actually the best players who came to Italy, apart from Ibra-Vieira-Maicon-Ronaldo) , England took Ballack, Shevchenko, Essien, Rosicky, Hleb, Drogba, Kuyt, Berbatov, Robben, Evra, Vidic and talents like Fabregas, Diaby , Van Persie, Obi Mikel, Agger, Mascherano, Tevez.
Even the minows in England had some great purchases.

While Italians were buying average, Spanish bought Deco, Cannavaro, Emerson, Van Nistelrooy, Zambrotta, Giuly, Edmilson, Diarra, Cassano, Miguel , Kanoute , Maresca, Maniche, Costinha, Maxi Rodriguez, Petrov and talents like Robinho, Cicinho, Marcelo, Gago, Higuain or Luis Fabiano.

"We" still have the top class players "we" bought when Italians were the richest and the difference still can not be felt so much.
But the demotion of Juve, the scandal that took some teams 5 years back financially will start to reflect very soon.
Shevchenko, Cassano, Maresca, the Juve players ( though because of calciopoli, but it doesn;t matter. What matter is they aren't here), very probably Toni and now maybe even Buffon are a big slap in the face.
And now the others are buying the best and we still rely on what we bought in the past.

Originally Posted by zlatanov

but I do think that this transfer happened a bit too quickly and the money invloved were a bit too much to allow him a more sober and not hurried assessment of what would be really best for him as the next step in a young player's career ...

Would you have said this transfer would have happened too quickly if Milan had bought him? How do you know Liverpool haven't been following him for some time just like other clubs. With promising youngsters there is always a race to sign them, you have to be quick to beat the competition. In today's market you don't have the luxury of being able to sit back and truly weigh things up.

Tony, once i saw the source of the article i quickly realised its unreliability

Tony, as I said I agree that something off the field has to be done ... although I can't help it but wonder where are all thos eteams that bought all those players you mentioned ... funnily, Milan's opponent in the CL final is by far the most modest EPL team, among the big teams that is, and at leats on paper cannot possibly compare to teams like Barca, Real, Bayern, Valencia, ManU, Chelski, Lyon etc ... and I cannot help but wonder whether SAF, manager of one of the richest and most free spending team out there has yet figured out whether it was a school bus or a truck that hit his team at SFs in the CL.

My point is success is what will bring the Serie A back where it was, more consistency in the performances of Italian teams ... and success is not necessarily tied to purchasing every overhyped name that hits the media or spending/splashing ridiculous money for "star" players.
Big name players would certainly help in attarcating fans but what will keep them coming back for more is good football and above all success.

This being said, I think you really need to take a less biased look at things if you think that an Italian team winning the CL under the nose of the rich guys from the EPL will not raise the fame and return some of the lost shine of Serie A football ... not saying it will solve the entire problem but it will help, at least to an extent ... and damn sure it won't HURT Italian football, part of which is Juve too.

Originally Posted by Jim_UK

Would you have said this transfer would have happened too quickly if Milan had bought him? How do you know Liverpool haven't been following him for some time just like other clubs. With promising youngsters there is always a race to sign them, you have to be quick to beat the competition. In today's market you don't have the luxury of being able to sit back and truly weigh things up.

more or less the same ... if Milan had gotten him I don't see how that would have been any better for his development as a player as he would face the same, if not worse, competition he would at Pool.
South American players seem to be better suited to football and lifestyle in Italy and Spain, or maybe it;s the other way around, but still I don't think going to a big club is the best thing for a 20 yo in his first step into European football.

I personally think that Fiorentina or Roma or Sevilla or a team like Tottenham (if you want and EPL example) would have been better for him at this point in time.

Originally Posted by zlatanov

Tony, as I said I agree that something off the field has to be done ... although I can't help it but wonder where are all thos eteams that bought all those players you mentioned ... funnily, Milan's opponent in the CL final is by far the most modest EPL team, among the big teams that is, and at leats on paper cannot possibly compare to teams like Barca, Real, Bayern, Valencia, ManU, Chelski, Lyon etc ... and I cannot help but wonder whether SAF, manager of one of the richest and most free spending team out there has yet figured out whether it was a school bus or a truck that hit his team at SFs in the CL.

This being said, I think you really need to take a less biased look at things if you think that an Italian team winning the CL under the nose of the rich guys from the EPL will not raise the fame and return some of the lost shine of Serie A football ... not saying it will solve the entire problem but it will help, at least to an extent ... and damn sure it won't HURT Italian football, part of which is Juve too.

Zlat, but we're talking about Milan here.
Easily the best European team in last 5 years. Team that, when Italy was still the strongest and Italians could have taken any player in front of the English and Spanish, bought Pirlo, Seedorf, Nesta, Kaka, Dida, Cafu, Gattuso....
That team can still beat anyone in the world no matter how great players the others are buying.

Italians started to fall financially somewhere at the same time when 3 Italian teams were in CL semis, 2 of them in the finals and one of them won.
That didn't help at all back then.

Milan did make it to the final in 2005 ( it's also huge success) but again it didn't help.

I won't count WC 2006 because it was impossibile that WC win to help somehow, because Calciopoli already happened.

I never said it won't return the lost shine of the quality of Italian teams if Milan wins. But that would be so short-termed .
Zlat, this is not about "Is it good for Juve if Milan wins" . I'll leave that aside. We're talking about something else now.
If Milan wins and Italians do benefit from that, then ok, i have no problem cheering for Milan and wanting them to win.
But that's not the main point, imo.
We can't rely on that single match. Italians can not rely on that.
What if Liverpool wins ? Does it mean it's all lost and over ?

Originally Posted by Tony29.

Zlat, but we're talking about Milan here.
Easily the best European team in last 5 years. Team that, when Italy was still the strongest and Italians could have taken any player in front of the English and Spanish, bought Pirlo, Seedorf, Nesta, Kaka, Dida, Cafu, Gattuso....
That team can still beat anyone in the world no matter how great players the others are buying.

Italians started to fall financially somewhere at the same time when 3 Italian teams were in CL semis, 2 of them in the finals and one of them won.
That didn't help at all back then.

Milan did make it to the final in 2005 ( it's also huge success) but again it didn't help.

I won't count WC 2006 because it was impossibile that WC win to help somehow, because Calciopoli already happened.

I never said it won't return the lost shine of the quality of Italian teams if Milan wins. But that would be so short-termed .
Zlat, this is not about "Is it good for Juve if Milan wins" . I'll leave that aside. We're talking about something else now.
If Milan wins and Italians do benefit from that, then ok, i have no problem cheering for Milan and wanting them to win.
But that's not the main point, imo.
We can't rely on that single match. Italians can not rely on that.
What if Liverpool wins ? Does it mean it's all lost and over ?

I am not sure what you mean by "it didn't help" ... in those years Italian teams were as good as anyone out there ... they had excellent players all around, so you can't expect an influx of great players to Serie A as they were already in place.

It is the calciopoli scandal that hurt Italian footbal the most and it will probably take several more years to get them back on track, with Juve finding it's place among Europe's elite again.

As for the CL final ... no one is saying that italians should rely on one single game ... but you know, winning, or even being there in that game will not hurt but only help in getting Italian football back where it belongs.
Again, it may not be a full solution but at least it will be a part of the solution as being at the top of Europe is where Italian football wants to be. If not anything else, winning that CL final or mrely reaching it will at least give the right mindset and determination and set the right spirit for what lies ahead.

Fine !
I'm still a huge sceptic, but i hope you're the one between the 2 of us who's right and in few years Juve, Lazio ,Parma, Fiorentina and few others will be as succesful as they were and will challenge the english and spanish in CL and UEFA. And Milan's success this year and Inter's success next year will play a big part in the rebirth of Italian serie A - the best league in the world.

Regarding this year's transfer market i'm also a sceptic but we'll see.
Buffon, Ronaldinho, Eto'o, Abidal, Ribery, Deco, Trezeguet, Alves, Toni, Zambrotta, Huntelaar ...... If 5-6 of them play in serie A next year ( but not all of them in Inter and Milan) then it will be a step in the right way.

We'll see

The problem right now in Italy is that we have great teams that are on the top. Teams like Milan, Inter, Roma (despite the loss from Man U. I still think they are in the elite of Europe right now after beating Lyon and making it to the quarters of CL and the succsess in Serie A) are good enough to play with anyone out there, however the middle of the table is not. Like Tony mentioned teams that had power in the past like Parma, Lazio, Sampdoria in recent times have no longer been that strong but are only average teams even in Italy let alone Europe.
I didn't mention Fiorentina because I feel that they are very strong and they have a project that they always talk about..........something about being one of the top clubs in Italy in a year or two. They were on their way of becoming that last year and this year however the poing penalty hit them and now will probably play in UEFA cup which will contribute to their project as well. I think they will be very strong next year and are nothing short of some of the EPL teams like Bolton, Tottenham you (TONY) mentioned. Lazio now has a huge chance of becoming what they once were after probably making it to the CL. A few good signings will make them a great European side once again and the future for them looks bright.

Now, Tony.......you mentioned that you want at least 5-6 of those players to play in Italy and NOT ONLY Milan and Inter. But before that you mention all the STARS that have went to Spain and England. Lets see.......Ballack, Shevchenko, Essien, Rosicky, Hleb, Drogba, Kuyt, Berbatov, Robben, Evra, Vidic and talents like Fabregas, Van Persie, Obi Mikel, Agger, Mascherano, Tevez. All these players are in Manchester, Chelsea, Liverpool and Arsenal. I won't even mention West Ham because the transfers of Tevez and Mascherano were a mistery of their own. Berbatov went to Tottenham but he wasn't exactly the SUPER STAR or anything more then Oliveira at that time.
Spain.....you mention Deco, Cannavaro, Emerson, Van Nistelrooy, Zambrotta, Giuly, Edmilson, Diarra, Cassano, Miguel , Kanoute , Maresca, Maniche, Costinha, Maxi Rodriguez, Petrov and talents like Robinho, Cicinho, Marcelo, Gago, Higuain or Luis Fabiano. Again..........95+% of these players play for Barcelona, Real, Valencia and their "new" force Sevilla.

So as you can see, it is the same thing in all the leagues. These BIG names that you mention go to 3-4 clubs and that's the way it is. Serie A a few years ago was the best because they were the exception to this. There was the 3-4 big clubs and then there was clubs like Lazio, Parma, Fiorentina who were buying big names as well. That's what separated Serie A from the rest and now that no longer is there. So now it is more or less equal.

The future of Italian football is bright in my eyes. Milan, Inter, Juve(I think they will be in the elite a lot faster then people expect them, and maybe as soon as next year) will still be as good as anyone else. Lazio I think will go back to be a top team for the reasons I mentioned above. Fiorentina will definately be a top club next year and I think they are this year as well but the Calciopolli scandal set them back one year. Roma is very good the way they are and I think they will keep their squad plus add some quality players. Big names like Genoa and Napoli look very good to come back to Serie A and such historic teams will raise up attendance and the league will look a lot better when they take the spots of "less important" teams. So looking at this you are looking at a league that will have at least 6 elite teams capable of beating any corresponding team in Europe be it CL or UEFA cup.

Yes it is true that BIG NAMES no longer come to Italy like they used to but that is only because the Italians set up a very high standard that is no longer there for any country. And now the people compare the present to a past that will probably not come back to the game in a long long time. The spending that occured from Italian teams was crazy and unthought of and I think some teams (Lazio, Parma) learned their lesson. That doesn't mean that the league is sinking as the league proved to be as good as any other when Italy won the WC with all their players comming from inside the country.

well put, nefremo ... now our Tony can do nothing but take his butt to Athens and scream it off with a "Forza Milan"