Sheva is better than van Basten (?)

Originally Posted by Peachtot

Big WOW....
He lost some but he got only 1, balon d'or


Faster ?? I agree...

but sharper ?? I dont think so...
Experience could increase sense of goal...

sheva was better in the past

they are different but sheva is better
ukraine has a golden chance for world cup 2006
cuz they have 20 points for me
georgia and greece away
denmark and turkey home
ukraine could get 4-5 points and they will be leaders
ı want ucraine in world cup instead of turkey eventough ım a turkish but ı love sheva more than my country
this is a real love

Sheva was as good as ever last year, his 2005 hasn't started as brilliantly but that's just because we've lost a little form and he's had an injury.

Cantona, Zidane, Hagi, Romario all peaked around 30.

Originally Posted by Kui

Well I was old enough to live through the Van Basten period and I have to tell you Sheva is good, but listen without any bias. He needs to do some catching up to impress me as compared to Van Basten. He's on the right track but to compare him to Van Basten or to say he is better than the swann is a bit too early.
The game was played differently back then. Plus if you think a player like Materazzi was one too many dirty defenders, Van Basten had to deal with backs worse than Marco Materazzi. Why do you think his career was cut so short.\
To tell you the truth to ponder the question of who is better is not too wise. It's like comparing the beauty of mother to that of maybe your grandmother. there is no context into understanding the time or setting at that particular moment.

imagine if van basten didnt get injured. How different things would be?

btw how old was he when he got injured? 28, 29?

Kriss: Sheva goal against Juve was a fluke as he admitted he didn't try for goal.

I don't know where u heard that, I heard the otherwise, that he declined that he attempted to cross and that was a pure shot. But nevermind, even if u don't count that goal he has many other super goals in his resume...

Originally Posted by ac_milan_foreva

imagine if van basten didnt get injured. How different things would be?

btw how old was he when he got injured? 28, 29?

Exactly! He was instrumental at getting FIFA to issue bylaws regarding the "tackle from behind" because that is how his career ended. Not from the "golden bullet" but from getting the nasty done to him every game. And these were really bad ones. Every team had their Pietro Vierchowods and Jon Andoni Goikoetxeas and the likes.

Interesting poll.

We have the disadvantage here that we know a lot about Sheva i.e. he is still playing BUT FEW OF US REMEMBER THE GAMES OF MARCO, SINCE MANY OF US ARE UNDER 25. This may bias the opinion.

However I still think that Van Basten was better than Shevchenko. Guys Van Basten played his last match when he was 28!! When Marco was 28 (i.e. Sheva's today age) Marco had won 3 golden balls, while Sheva is 'still' at 1. I think if Van Basten could have played at least till 32 maybe he could have added one more.

The only thing i see Sheva better than MVB is his physice, MVB was more fragile

Franco this golden balls (lol) don't mean much... What I'm saying is that I'm sure if Sheva was born in country like Holland and played for a strong national side and a fantastic club as Marco did, than he was as much as succesful as Marco... I mean how do u expect someone to win golden ball if his national team and his club suck (talking about 2000-2002 period)...

Not really Sash. I can counterpoint and also say that if Holland is a strong Football country the pool of talent there is in greater numbers reducing the chance of players with exceptional talent even getting to the acme of world class football. Therefore it might appear that Marco had more difficulty into getting to the top than Sheva. It goes both ways Sash.

What about George Weah and Liberia? I dont think one's country plays that big of a deal as to who the talent is for purely their talents sake. I'd like to think that anyone in the world has a chance to be recognized as a football great no matter what country they are from. I recognize Marco solely for his football talent and nothing else. I also recognized Sheva's talent as well and am not willing to care what country they are from to say it has a factor to who is better than someone else.

Originally Posted by Sash21

Franco this golden balls (lol) don't mean much... What I'm saying is that I'm sure if Sheva was born in country like Holland and played for a strong national side and a fantastic club as Marco did, than he was as much as succesful as Marco... I mean how do u expect someone to win golden ball if his national team and his club suck (talking about 2000-2002 period)...

It seems you're only willing to use information to your argunents benefit? Maybe you are ignoring history, or maybe you do realise that there is information in there which may lessen your argument but want to hide that fact.

1956 Stanley Matthews (Blackpool)
1962 Josef Masopust (Dukla Prague)
1963 Lev Yachine (Dynamo Moscow)
1967 Florian Albert (Ferencvaros)
1975 Oleg Blokhine (Dynamo Kiev)
1977 Allan Simonsen (Borussia Munchengladbach)
1986 Igor Belanov (Dynamo kiev)

There have been winners in the past who have played for the smaller clubs and won, point being if you're exceptional enough you'll stand a chance of winning it. Personally I hold the european player of the year award in higher opinion than world player of the year which is more media infused. It has history and is generally more accurate with players of the year.

Awards aside this poll is about who is the better player, your argument seems to be leaning to the side that marco is only regarded as good as he is because he was privaledged to play for good teams. If that was the case, why didn't Daniele Massaro win awards, he played at the same time as van basten. He had the same 'easy' opportunities to score. Same goes for Johnny Bosman for holland, he scored 5 goals in an international match in 87 which is still an all time record I think for holland. Marco was a great player who played for great teams, not a player made great by playing for great teams.

I'm fortunte few here to have seen both van Basten and Sheva play, and personally I think from a technical point of view van basten was a better player. Shevchenko is a better team player in terms of using the ball/passing outside the box and making chances for himself, but van bastan contributed more to the team by doing his job better (that is scoring more vital goals). Marco was also a much better striker of the ball in my opinion. A good test amongst longstanding loyal (milan) fans is that if Sheva had to retire today, would he be remembered in history moreso than van basten.

The answer to that for most I would suspect be no.

Guys I don't understand why are u twisting my words... It is possible to a player from a small club to win the award but lets remember when it last time happened???? I don't kno when the last time it happened... Even Weah won all his personal awards only after he moved to Milan from Lyon (or PSG or whatever). And Snapster, Dynamo and Munchengladbach aren't a small teams, they are pretty big clubs with big history. And don't use 60's and 50's as an arguements because they are not relevant... And u say that world player award is less important because he is "media infused"??? LOL!!!! How could it be more "media infused" if he is chosen by coaches and captains all around the world and European Player of the year chosen by the MEDIA!!!! LOL
And I already said this trophies don't count for me, because that's a lot of bull****. For example Zidane was chosen world player of the year 98 (or 99) simply because he scored with his bold head two goals from corner in the final... I mean WTF???
And even this year, do u think there's a one person in this forum that thinks that Ronnie deserves to be Fifa player of the year more than Sheva??? hell no!
This is how u can be selected to be best player:
-if u do nice tricks
-if u are very popular
-if u score many goals
-if u win some important trophies

So lets see what Sheva has: he scores goals, he is not very popular, his tricks are nice but not as nice as those of Ronnie, and he won any important trophy only in 2003!!!! The only reason he didn't one the golden ball in 03 is because he was injured most of the season. I mean what's the difference between Sheva's performance in 99 and in 04??? Some even say that he was better in 99, but he won a major trophy at 03 and 04, so that's when he got to pe recognised as a major star.
Take for example RvN, this guy could easily to be European player of the year, but the teams he plays for can put him in the spot where he can prove his "greatness" (at Euro 04 that guy impressed me the most).
So this personal awards are all about popularity and media exposion, I'm pretty sure that as I already said that if Marco was playing for a week teams like Sheva did for many years, he wouldn't become european player of the year or anything.

P.S.

[quote]if Holland is a strong Football country the pool of talent there is in greater numbers reducing the chance of players with exceptional talent even getting to the acme of world class football. Therefore it might appear that Marco had more difficulty into getting to the top than Sheva. [quote]

Marco was a great player that could play easily for any team... I'm not arguing if Marco was great or not, because it is out of quastion. What I'm saying is was he more greater than Sheva?????????

I'm not the one who said Sheva or any other player won the golden ball because he played for this or that team. I a bit confused now cause it would seem now that the argument is that Sheva only won the golden ball cause he plays for Milan.
Yes I'm disappointed he didnt get the FIFA award over Dinho but I'm saying I'm judging a player purely on his football talent regardless of what country or club he plays for.
Does a player get notice for his talents if he is playing for a big club? Yes
Is it a big difference? Yes
But lets not forget that it is almost natural that a big club will be given the comfort of getting the best players around. I dont think someone's country really matters in football.
Could Sheva have won the Golden Ball had he been still with Dynam Kiev? That is a good question but the burden is on the Club to be able to keep him and also win a Champion's League title with him still in the club.
You do not see a player still in Brazil or Argentina leagues recieving the award. Yes we all know that. And I do see some point at what you might be saying Sash. But those are market forces affecting where a player goes to play eventually. But it goes both ways.
It cant be said that if someone comes from Holland or plays for Holland that he is given more benefit than another player to win an award because that is the origin of where he started.
Obviously if a player is from Greenland and he's Uber talented I doubt he'd choose to play for the local league. It's stupid. But if he is TALENTED obviously to no ones surprise he might end up in MAN U or Madrid or Milan or any other great club for that matter.
If we were talking about player POSITIONS such as Strikers getting more recognition than say goal keepers, yes than there is a discrepancy or bias.
I just dont believe that there is a bias to where someone is from to him getting an award or influencing the rest of the world who is a better player. I am not saying Marco was a better player because he is from Holland.
Taking the award away and using only my eyes as my witness, I'm saying Marco was a better player at this moment in time. Of course this is an opinion.
I dont care if the player is a woman! If she's got talent that no on can deny she is the better player.

Originally Posted by Sash21

Marco was a great player that could play easily for any team... I'm not arguing if Marco was great or not, because it is out of quastion. What I'm saying is was he more greater than Sheva?????????

In my opinion yes he was. I dont care if the guy was born on the moon. Marco was a better player.
Listen that can all change. Sheva is still playing and things can get better for him.
Can Sheva be greater than MARCO VB? Yeah. I'd like to see it. Than we dont need to argue about this anymore.

Originally Posted by Sash21

Guys I don't understand why are u twisting my words... It is possible to a player from a small club to win the award but lets remember when it last time happened???? I don't kno when the last time it happened... Even Weah won all his personal awards only after he moved to Milan from Lyon (or PSG or whatever). And Snapster, Dynamo and Munchengladbach aren't a small teams, they are pretty big clubs with big history.

You are contradicting yourself all the time. first you claim that Sheva haven't played for big teams, now you say his former team Dynamo was a big club. Weah won the award in a more mediocre Milan than the one Sheva plays in and won the award. again a bit contradictonairy.

You been talking a lot about all the great looking Sheva goals. I said that Van Basten scored the goal that was voted the best goal of the last century, which is pretty much the best goal scored ever. He also had another goal in top10 in that vote. So that argument goes in his favour, that is if you don't value your opinion higher than the rest of the football fans.