UCL SF 1st Leg: Manchester United vs. Milan

No one is saying that ManU will be easy but at this level who is after all ... and bayern is not such a bad team as you might think, it's just that we made them look bad ... very much like an inexperienced and "headless" Roma made ManU look much better than they really are, this last one is only in our advantage though

true, the way some people are talking here its like they think Utd get 7 goals every week

The reality is simple, Roma played straight into Utds hands and gave Utds attackers room to run at them, Milan already showed a few years ago that the deep 4-5-1 can negate this. Its the same tactics that Arsenal played vs Utd twice this season and both games Arsenal won because for all their flair havent the experience yet to know when to attack and defend. if Milan get the first goal in the tie they will be in control of the tie and 90% certain to go through.

Chelsea and Liverpool are different propositions entirely though. Neither of those sides mind boring their fans to tears if it measn securing the result, Utds players simply do not know how to play for a draw because its not in the nature of the club. If Milan do make the final i agree with Pireloke, it will most likely be Chelsea who have far more tactical nous than Utd do if a lot less flair.

I also made a prediction that Sheva will be the one to score the winner in the CL final a month or 2 ago and whoever makes the final i will be praying that doesnt come true now

Originally Posted by Stezagud

true, the way some people are talking here its like they think Utd get 7 goals every week

The reality is simple, Roma played straight into Utds hands and gave Utds attackers room to run at them, Milan already showed a few years ago that the deep 4-5-1 can negate this. Its the same tactics that Arsenal played vs Utd twice this season and both games Arsenal won because for all their flair havent the experience yet to know when to attack and defend. if Milan get the first goal in the tie they will be in control of the tie and 90% certain to go through.

Chelsea and Liverpool are different propositions entirely though. Neither of those sides mind boring their fans to tears if it measn securing the result, Utds players simply do not know how to play for a draw because its not in the nature of the club. If Milan do make the final i agree with Pireloke, it will most likely be Chelsea who have far more tactical nous than Utd do if a lot less flair.

I also made a prediction that Sheva will be the one to score the winner in the CL final a month or 2 ago and whoever makes the final i will be praying that doesnt come true now

Whom will you support?

Originally Posted by Stezagud

true, the way some people are talking here its like they think Utd get 7 goals every week

The reality is simple, Roma played straight into Utds hands and gave Utds attackers room to run at them, Milan already showed a few years ago that the deep 4-5-1 can negate this. Its the same tactics that Arsenal played vs Utd twice this season and both games Arsenal won because for all their flair havent the experience yet to know when to attack and defend. if Milan get the first goal in the tie they will be in control of the tie and 90% certain to go through.

Chelsea and Liverpool are different propositions entirely though. Neither of those sides mind boring their fans to tears if it measn securing the result, Utds players simply do not know how to play for a draw because its not in the nature of the club. If Milan do make the final i agree with Pireloke, it will most likely be Chelsea who have far more tactical nous than Utd do if a lot less flair.

I also made a prediction that Sheva will be the one to score the winner in the CL final a month or 2 ago and whoever makes the final i will be praying that doesnt come true now

what you said regarding the difs between Pool and Chelski on one side and ManU on the other is true ... but the thing is that Milan is a side with two faces - one with a big smile on it when we play football with flair and technique and lots of nice passing and combos, while the other has determination written all over it when we show our other side and grind out and suffer patiently thru a game waiting for that one moment to make the decisive blow (like the game in Munchen, for instance).

All in all, Milan can be a very technical side but also a very physical and tactical one too ... something manU aren't, at least not at this level ... and I think a similar thing could be said for Chelski, with the opposite polarity though as they are predominantly a physical/tactical side.
Maybe Pool at times are capable of turning on the flair and technique too but their approach is again predominantly tactical and physical.

The reason why I am pointing this out is that when a team is one-dimensional in it's approach to the game, it cannot re-adjust itself during a game and at this level of football this could be crucial and make them easy pray for the opponent.
Also, often tactical and physical sides like CHelski and Pool find it difficult to cope/neutralize more technical opponents, while teams like manU and Roma, which rely on wing play above all (read space and speed and technique) could fall into a trap of a more tactical side and find themselves "suffocated" and neutralized by a 4-5-1 system, for instance.

am i alowed to post the rooney ronaldo picture, where ronaldo is on his knees?
it could be considered offensive, but it is quite funny...

if you wanna see it, just type "rooney ronaldo" in google image search.

Im a Utd fan first and foremost so it'll have to be them

All in all, Milan can be a very technical side but also a very physical and tactical one too ... something manU aren't, at least not at this level ... and I think a similar thing could be said for Chelski, with the opposite polarity though as they are predominantly a physical/tactical side.

Utd can be a smart and physical side but they need all players fit, the same with Chelsea. The Utd Roma faced only had Rio of the usual first choice defence for the away leg and it showed, Brown and O Shea are limited and struggle to step up for Europe. Neville and Vidic in their places give Utd a far stronger defence and the option of Evra or Heinze on the left depending on opposition adds a great flexibility to that too.

In midfield too Utd can pass as well as anyone through Scholes and Carrick, but against Roma (and domestically recently) there has only been Rooney fit to play upfront and that has cut out a lot of options. Saha adds a greater physical threat and is more of a true forward but he spends 90% of his career on the treatment table Smith though is nearing fitness now and his presence up front gave Roma a lot of indirect problems. Basically if Utd get these players back and fit for ther Milan game it will open up a wealth of options for Fergie, the trouble is most of them are estimated to come back roughly at the time of the game and i fear they could be rushed back like Ruud was the last time Utd played Milan. If Milan face the same XI Roma played in the first leg then there is no doubt Milan in my mind would qualify.

As for Chelsea, their flair comes almost entirely fom Cole and Robben but they havent been able to combine them at all this year and Cole has only just come back to fitness. If they get them back fit for the final then Mourinho will also have far more options with his attacking players. Cole in particular could be the key to unleashing Sheva because unlike the other Chelsea midfielders he doesnt look for a long range shot all the time He can draw players and does see the options ahead which is what Sheva has been crying out for all season, usually its just Drogba and Lampard with the standard long ball, header down move that supplies the main threat for them.

If they can keep the Drogba/Lampard threat and add a Cole/Sheva threat then with their defence they will be extremely difficult to counter.

Alot of man utd fans are saying the same thing over and over again, 'Rooney and Ronaldo will run circles around the grandpa defense'

Lets be real, rooney is overrated, ronaldo is ok. Some utd fans are even comparing Ronaldo to Kaka, lol. I think Ronaldo is a better version of Aaron Lennon, if you keep him quiet he becomes frustrated and burnout (against Arsenal, Chelsea, Liverpool etc) if teams squeeze the space then Ronaldo becomes frustrated. The way everybody praises Man utd they think they are superior, lets be honest its not like they cant be beaten, they have struggled sometimes this season.

Originally Posted by Milancelotti

Alot of man utd fans are saying the same thing over and over again, 'Rooney and Ronaldo will run circles around the grandpa defense'

Lets be real, rooney is overrated, ronaldo is ok. Some utd fans are even comparing Ronaldo to Kaka, lol. I think Ronaldo is a better version of Aaron Lennon, if you keep him quiet he becomes frustrated and burnout (against Arsenal, Chelsea, Liverpool etc) if teams squeeze the space then Ronaldo becomes frustrated. The way everybody praises Man utd they think they are superior, lets be honest its not like they cant be beaten, they have struggled sometimes this season.

Sometimes is an understatement, they have been struggling all season in UCL bar the 1 match against roma. I really don't know what these guys have been smoking. 1 good game and the team is treated like gods. Ronaldo is not hard to stop, cafu already shown how it is done, look at his feet and then just take the ball away from him.

I believe Milan has superior quality especially in the defence and midfield department.

Originally Posted by hwmook

Sometimes is an understatement, they have been struggling all season in UCL bar the 1 match against roma. I really don't know what these guys have been smoking. 1 good game and the team is treated like gods. Ronaldo is not hard to stop, cafu already shown how it is done, look at his feet and then just take the ball away from him.

I believe Milan has superior quality especially in the defence and midfield department.

Wait, they have Saha the greatest striker the french have produced in over 100 years. He would run circles around the henry of 04' and the platini of 84' dont mess

Pippo Inzaghi loan forward in manchester with the 5 pack in midfield i think we should go for.. if gila starts then we are doomed

With regards to my earlier post I'm not basing my respect for Manu on the 7-1 thrashing of Roma but on their season as awhole in all comps.

Yes their UCL season hasn't been great but neither has ours. We drew and lost away games to much weaker opponents imho earlier in the campaign.

However, we are starting to build momentum and as others have posted we do get better in the latter stages of the comp.

With regards to the 4-5-1 formation closing down an opposing team relying on width...

Arsenal made the choice of formation based more on injuries than tactics. Both Van Persie and Henry were out for those games. They are currently still using that formation due to the 2 of them getting injured all over again.
Traditionally they are a 4-4-2 team like most English sides.

Bolton who have beaten Arsenal this season (twice I think) play 4-5-1 often and are a very phsyical side. They also boasted one of the selfishiest defences in the EPL. Manu beat them 4-0 with this formation.

Manu know how to negate the 4-5-1 formation, Ferguson has been around the block many a time.

However, experience at this stage of the comp counts for a lot. The key is the midfield battle. If our midfield is rested properly(extremely difficult because of the 4th spot battle) then the advantage is with us.

If we can starve the Manu attackers by cancelling out Carrick and Scholes, then they will become frustrated and we all know what happens when Rooney and Scholes get frustrated....red cards!

Kaka,Nesta and Maldini also needs to be rested. Nesta and Maldini seem to be the best combo for europe.
Can we clone Maldini and reverse the years for the next couple of seasons?

If Kaka is rested and firing on all his cylinders then I don't think it really matters who plays upfront.

And Dida must play as well as he did against Bayern 2nd-leg.

Either way, reckon we are in for 2 very interesting matches.

Milan has to win, our last chance of some silverware

Originally Posted by jmacpherson

Yes their UCL season hasn't been great but neither has ours. We drew and lost away games to much weaker opponents imho earlier in the campaign.

that's true but what stats don't say is that we didn't need to win those last couple of games in the CL group stage as we had already secured qualification ... as for manU, they had to win at all costs the very last game in the groups vs Benfica in order to qualify as their future in the CL was at stake till the very last moments.

Also, when we were playing in CL groups, we were in atrocious form as a team and had very average performances and results in Serie A even against small teams. In that same moment, ManU was doing great in EPL and building a comfortable cushion over Chelski by more or less cruising over other EPL teams ... with one note though:

ManU's record vs the bigger (read real quality) teams in EPL - like Chelski, Pool and Arsenal - is far from impressive and one of their few wins in these match ups (vs Pool at Einfield) came after Pool had run all over ManU for an entire game but in the end manU scored a goal out of nowhere really after being outplayed for the entire game - a game which ManU HAD to win to keep Chelski at bay, while Pool could comfortably afford to lose it.

All in all, ManU's current standing in the EPL is not the result of them being superior in the head-to-head battle with other major, quality EPL teams - quite the opposite, they've looked inferior quite often - but the result of ManU being more consistent and getting their points in the games vs smaller teams of far less quality than your average team in the CL.

What I am trying to say is that consistency on the scale that ManU has shown this season wins you national championships of 38 games or so but in a "smaller" scale championship like the CL, a team's overall quality is much more important than consistency as there are far fewer games to be played and often over considerable period of time from one another, when a team's form could go thru many cycles of ups and downs.

That's why i think Milan is so good in CL but not as successful in Serie A - we are a quality team but often inconsistent, while Juve under cappelo was the exact opposite - a consistent team but they reached their ceiling in quality at around the QF stage of the CL where they would simply lose to a team of higher overall quality.

that's true but what stats don't say is that we didn't need to win those last couple of games in the CL group stage as we had already secured qualification ... as for manU, they had to win at all costs the very last game in the groups vs Benfica in order to qualify as their future in the CL was at stake till the very last moments.

That doesnt tell the whole story, Utd won the first 3 games relatively easily and figured 1 point from the last 3 would be enough to qualify. Fergie took a weakened team away to Copenhagen and ended up getting beat, as for the game away to Celtic Utd controlled it but missed chances and lost to a late freekick. That was the only game Utd lost when going 100% for the win, and as Milan found later on, Celtic Park is a difficult place to get a result.

ManU's record vs the bigger (read real quality) teams in EPL - like Chelski, Pool and Arsenal - is far from impressive and one of their few wins in these match ups (vs Pool at Einfield) came after Pool had run all over ManU for an entire game but in the end manU scored a goal out of nowhere really after being outplayed for the entire game - a game which ManU HAD to win to keep Chelski at bay, while Pool could comfortably afford to lose it.

2 wins, 1 draw and 2 losses isnt bad against our nearest rivals. The Liverpool game was won late but both of the Arsenal defeats came in the last few minutes too so luck has more than evened out over the 5 matches. As for the win at Anfield, Utd didnt have to win at all, a draw would have been a good result as our lead was effectively 7 points with the goal difference included. Liverpool wanted to win to overhaul Chelsea though losing ended their hopes of that, and if that wasnt motivation enough the chance to derail Utds title bid would have ensured they played at 100%, dont underestimate the depth of rivalry between the clubs

2 wins, 1 draw and 2 losses isnt bad against our nearest rivals. The Liverpool game was won late but both of the Arsenal defeats came in the last few minutes too so luck has more than evened out over the 5 matches. As for the win at Anfield, Utd didnt have to win at all, a draw would have been a good result as our lead was effectively 7 points with the goal difference included. Liverpool wanted to win to overhaul Chelsea though losing ended their hopes of that, and if that wasnt motivation enough the chance to derail Utds title bid would have ensured they played at 100%, dont underestimate the depth of rivalry between the clubs

At the time of that game at Anfield, there were 10+ games left to play in the EPL with one of them seeing ManU visit Chelski ... with that in mind, 7 pts were far from enough and it was indeed a must win game for manU - and if I am not wrong, manU's current lead over Chelski is quite curiously exactly 3 pts with that game at Stamford Bridge yet to come

As for Pool, you can't compare fighting for the title with hoping to maybe get 2nd spot. By then Pool were already out of the title race and the dif between 2nd or 3rd spot was not a season-defining one, so for them that game was everything but a must-win one with CL coming before anything else, given that they were virtually guaranteed a spot among the first 4 in the EPL.

And as you said, the intensity of rivalry shouldn't be forgotten either - but the same argument works for ManU too ... my point however was that it was Pool who dominated the game - their domination was quite obvious - and that was one of the 2 games vs quality teams manU has managed to win so far in the EPL.
You are right, a 2-1-2 record isn't bad but it is not that impressive either, actually, it's quite average considering how one of those wins came at Anfield.
The dif between that ManU win and the game they lost to Arsenal in the dying minutes of regular time is that Arsenal won a game which they dominated, while ManU won that game completely against the run of play and "luck" like that strikes only once in a while.

All in all, don't get me wrong Steza, I do see ManU as a solid, a very solid team - they wouldn't be on top of EPL and at the SFs of CL if they weren't - but the reason I am going after them is this whole ManU-mania that has overwhelmed fans and "experts" alike after one odd result in that game vs Roma when, if one takes a more sober look at their results vs quality opposition this year, one would be anything but mightily impressed.

All you could see in British tabloids and manU forums is people wondering not who between ManU and Milan will go thru but how many goals ManU will manage to score in the process of reaching the final ... not much of a dif than what it was 2 years ago when Rooney and CR were supposed to run circles around Milan'd old rearguard ... now, the least they could do is show some respect ... why lessons have to be taught twice, I am asking

on a dif note: do you know when Neville, Vidic, Saha, and Park are supposed to be back? I think I read that neville is out for the season, same with Sylvestre, while Vidic had a collar bone broken and may very well miss both Milan ties.

I am very confident that we will beat Man U. Our team is hitting form, and even our defence looks like it knows what it's doing.

Forza Milan!