Real Madrid

Originally Posted by mzk57

I can see fans here jealous of Real, but thats the fact. They are the greatest & by not a big margin ACM is 2nd. If ACM had not gifted CL 2005 & 2006 + Serie A 2005 & 2006, then it would have been in better position to claim to be the # 1 team of all time

Since only 2 people don't agree with you since your last post this is adressed to me. But you should read my posts better Zeekay I'm not jealous of Real Madrid not by a longshot, even if everybody here would say Milan is the greatest club I still would have brought up that naming the greatest club in history is just crap.

As I said before Manchester United is the best club of Europe today why? They won the last CL.
So I wouldn't see where I'm jealous of Real you guys are comparing things that can't be compared with the same standards. If you want to say Real won most of the EC I, then I would agree but that doesn't mean that they are the greatest club ever. (I've given arguments in my previous post)

Besides I don't see any good arguments that rule out mine so instead of calling me jealous focus on that...
Zeekay it's even pretty funny when you say the fact is, what fact are you talking about?
I just said why it isn't a fact and instead of giving arguments you answer with the fact is, something isn't true just becoz you add 'the fact is'.

Hated that club with vengeance. From Franco killing, and cheating Barca out of Di Stefano. From being bankrolled by the Spanish Government to cover their debts, and give themn spending money. They are more storied than Milan, but also like the only news is only bad news.

Determining which club is the greatest of all time is very difficult and quite obviously can only ever be done with a certain amount of subjectivity. There are several factors to take into account, such as titles won (domestically and international), the strength of the league, etc.

I believe Rangers are the club with most trophies, but obviously they're not anyway near the greatest team, as the majority of their titles are from the Scottish league and cup. Below I've made a list of what I would consider the top five candidates.

Explanation: I've taken the most succesful teams of each of the best leagues + our beloved Milan, which, despite trailing Juventus in terms of scudetti, has raked up considerable international succes. These candidates do not necessarily equal the best 5 teams, as teams such as Inter (merda), Barca and Man Utd are excluded as they are inferior to the top teams from their respective countries, BUT not necessarily to the teams from other countries. For example it is debatable if Barcelona is inferior to Liverpool. I've brought in three criteria: Titles and 2nd place finishes in the National League, National Cup and Champions League.
[In random order, with 2nd places in parentheses]:

Real Madrid: League 31 (17); Cup 17 (19); CL 9 (3)

Juventus: League 27 (14); Cup 9 (4); CL 2 (5)

Milan: League 17 (14); Cup 5 (7); CL 7 (4)

Liverpool: League 18 (11); Cup 7 (6); CL 5 (2)

Bayern München: League 21 (?); Cup 14 (2); CL 4 (3)

Judging which league is historically the strongest is even more difficult than finding the strongest club, as the mid and bottom-table teams are rarely pinned against each other. I would say, though, that the order since the 1950's (and the advent of 'real' continental competitions), would be as follow:

1 Serie A
2 La Liga
3 First Division/Premiership
4 Bundesliga

Thus a scudetto should be worth more than the other championship trophies, which would make Juventus's and Milan's accomplishments even greater, while for instace diminishing those of Bayern.

But there are other factors, such as continuity, such as getting into European competitions constantly, and I believe Barca are the only team to have done that every year since the 1950's.

There have been attempts, of course, to list the greatest clubs ever. FIFA made one at the turn of the millenium:

1 Real Madrid
2 Man Utd
3 Barca
4 Bayern
5 Ajax
5 Santos (tie)
7 Juventus
...
9 Milan (tie)
...
12 Inter (merda)
12 Liverpool (tie)

This list is garbage, IMO, as the amount of South American teams is ridiculous, I mean when was Flamengo (joint 9th) ever as good as us? And the fact that Man Utd is 2nd, is clearly because of it's CL succes the previous year and it's general domination of the EPL. It shows how fickle people can be...

In conclusion, if there has to be a greatest team of all time, It'd probably be Real Madrid, followed by Juventus and Milan.

Ceceves, I completely agree with your first part.
You have a point if you want to name the clubs who has most trophies but yet you also use assumptions. Why are scudetti more important than other leagues? Who can be sure that for example the scottish league has to be estemated lower that the spanish during the Franco era for example?
You point out that Barca is a vast European team since the 1950 yet you don't pick them in you population.
You count European titles and domestic titles yet you don't agree with the position of Manchester the FIFA's list coz it is based on their domination of the EPL and winning of the CL. Isn't that using double standards? I could be wrong but I think Man U is only one domestic title away for winning the same amount of titles of Liverpool...
As I said befor you have a point, and you made a good effort of proving with data but this only shows that you made a list that's pretty open for discussion once again.
I don't agree with your Eurocentrical vision either. When were Flamengo better than Milan? Nobody can answer this question one way or the other, what points out that making these kind of lists is useless.

The best team in the world is at the moment Milan, since we still are the worldchampion, or what's the point in having this matches?

The best team in Europe is at this moment Manchester United.

ps: I know I'm a pain in the a$$ but I still wait to be persuaded

@ Koeke

It’s absolutely correct that I based my post on assumptions, as I said in the first sentence of it: “Determining which club is the greatest of all time is very difficult and quite obviously can only ever be done with a certain amount of subjectivity”. Obviously I would be a hypocrite if I thought this somehow did not apply to my own assessments – So they are completely subjective.

That being said, I’m not a supporter of relativism and I believe some assumptions are more valid than others, for instance I would never doubt that the Spanish league is superior to the Scottish (which I’m sure you wouldn’t either ), although it can’t be objectively determined. Based on how the top teams of those two leagues have fared in continental competitions, how profilic their players are (though this is another subjective matter) and so on, I don’t think even the most narrow-minded Scotsman would deny that La Liga is better.

These are the same criteria I would use to back up my claim that the top South American teams are inferior to the top European teams – especially over a period of 50 years (which I used in my list), as the South American leagues are generally less polarized than European ones (for example three of the teams in the relegation zone in O Campeonato Brasileiro are currently Vasco da Gama, Santos and Fluminense!)

With regards to the list with Madrid, Juve, Milan, Liverpool and Bayern, that wasn’t my definitve list. It was merely an attempt to find the best candidates based on the amount of trophies won. Therefore Barca weren’t in it as they trail Madrid in both La Liga and CL titles. For my ultimate list (1 Madrid 2 Juventus 3 Milan) I used other criteria as well, one of which is continuity. An extended version of my list Barca would be ahead of Liverpool and Bayern, despite those clubs having won slightly more trophies.

Are Milan the best team in the world, just because we won the Club World Cup? In name only, I’m afraid. Look at international basketball, for instance, Spain won the world cup two years ago, yet everybody would agree that the United States have a significantly stronger team (not a great example, I know, but it’s the best I can think of ).

I don’t know if this persuades you, Koeke, it’s only my view on the topic. It’s a bit like discussing who’s the best player in the world – there are a few candidates that everybody can agree on as being among the best (Messi, Kaká, Ronaldinho, C. Ronaldo), but as to who’s THE best, there will never be unanimity since it is a subjective matter.

Well Ceveces, I totally agree with you, since I also agree with anybody who says that Real won most trophies. That is undeniable and I woun't dare to deny it. Yet does it make them the greatest team in the history of football? (comparing they won tons of early CL and Liga titels were given to them)? According to most posters in this thread it is, in my opinion it's unpossible to say. Just as I stated before it is unpossible to say who's the best player in the history (just as you did).
Is Phellps the best olympic athlete ever? (of the modern games)? If you count just medals he clearly is. But I don't completly agree. (He is one hell of an athlete of course). It's unpossible to compare diffrent sports, since a swimmer can preform and win more than one gold medals on the same olympic games. While other sporters can't if they want to win 8 gold medals they should be the best in their category for 32 years. So imo he is the best swimmer ever, with most olympic medals ever and he is one of the best olympic athletes but it's not fair to other sporters to call him the best olympic athlete ever.

The american basketball players are the best in the world just on paper. But they aren't the reigning world champion so they aren't the best.
Should we hand over the gold olympic gold medal to the dream team yet?
Since real won most CL and titles in la liga and is according to many the 'greatest' team in the history should they be given the liga title 2008-2009 allready? of course not.
I agree Milan is the WC only on paper but is there another way? No this is the only way teams of diffrent continents play against each other and since they are the best of each continent Milan is currently the best of the world. (Until the next WC is played).

pretty intresting stuff hugh

Koeke, the thing we perhaps disagree on, is wether the winner (for instance) of the Champions League is the best team in Europe, and reversely, if the the best team in Europe must be the winner of that competition.

While it is the winner of the CL perhaps has the only objective claim of being the best, I think there’s at least one argument against it: The CL is decided over 13 games, whereas most teams play around five times as many games over the course of a season. So, in other words, a team only need to be the best in that fifth of the season to be the best.

Hypothetically a team could focus entirely on the CL, and win half the games in it (which is enough to win it all), and then loose all the other games, even getting relegated from their league. While this is an extreme case, it is by no means impossible (look at Celta Vigo in 2004). My question is: would such a team be the best in Europe?

I think it would be more fair to look at each team’s entire season (league, domestic cup and continental cup) and then pass judgement. While this is of course more subjective than just looking at who wins the CL final, I believe it gives a much better answer.

Either way, if you (referring to people in general, not you Koeke ) are unwilling to use subjective assessments and stick to formalities, you wont be able to fully grasp the world.

Casillas defends Real Madrid president Calderon over Ronaldo snub

Iker Casillas has defended Real Madrid president Ramon Calderon after his failure to sign Manchester United star Cristiano Ronaldo.

The Spain goalkeeper said: "Clearly, in the mind of the president he was always trying to bring him here. But if the player has confusing ideas, leaving and then not wanting to ... there is little Calderon could do."

"People might ask explanations, it is true, but the numbers are there for Calderon: two years, two leagues trophies."

Sorry Koeke, but I don't thing you would have any problem declaring ACM the greatest ever if ACM had 9 CL, 31 Scudetti, 17 other cups + all those 2nd place finishes. Its not that Real Madrid out class the likes of ACM, Juve, Bayern, but with that kind of record you have to give them the credit. If winning is not the ultimate thing in football then what else is? Look at Arsenal, good style of football but pathetic record of trophies, & 2 be honest if that case was with ACM, it would made me sick all the time. Wining trophies is what matters imo.

Great job Ceceves, I agree with most of things you said. But my ratings is slightly different from yours,
1- Real Madrid
2- AC Milan
3- Bayern Munich
4- Ajax
5- Juventus
6- Liverpool
7- Barcelona
8- Inter Milan
9- Benfica
10- Manchester United

Originally Posted by Koeke

Imho it's the same if you want to make a ranking for the best player. Or if you want to know who was better Pele or Maradonna. in all these cases it results in endless discussions and at the end nobody agrees and we still don't have an answer.

Very simple, Diego Maradona is the greatest of them all. No question about it. & 2nd is Paolo Maldini

We'll destroy Valencia right and proper in Madrid. Good nights for good trophies.

3-2... That's nothing. 1-0 and it's home. I'm hoping for 4-0.

Schuster: Van der Vaart has different role at Real Madrid

Real Madrid coach Bernd Schuster says Rafael van der Vaart will have a different role to what he enjoyed at former club Hamburg.

"At Real Madrid his status will change," said Schuster. "The responsibility will be more within the group. At Hamburg he was the master, all the attacking play came through him, he gave passes and scored goals."


"Here, he will not have this responsibility, but his technical quality will help us."

Originally Posted by mzk57

[color="Red"][font="Georgia"]Sorry Koeke, but I don't thing you would have any problem declaring ACM the greatest ever if ACM had 9 CL, 31 Scudetti, 17 other cups + all those 2nd place finishes. Its not that Real Madrid out class the likes of ACM, Juve, Bayern, but with that kind of record you have to give them the credit. If winning is not the ultimate thing in football then what else is? Look at Arsenal, good style of football but pathetic record of trophies, & 2 be honest if that case was with ACM, it would made me sick all the time. Wining trophies is what matters imo.

So you know me better than I know myself or something? Do you know what I'm thinking now?

And as I stated numerous times I wouldn't agree if Milan was in Madrids case either. I do agree winning cups and titles is important for any team. I have never denied it... But I don't like comparisons that make no sense. Being the greatest club is just impossible to say.
Is an early Cl victory the same as today? Is winning the primera division worth more than seri a, or EPL? How many titles did Real won honestly (Without help from Franco)? etc. Real is probably the most decorated team and I won't deny that either, since that is a fact and deductable from the number of trophies but are they the greatest? That's another question.

Originally Posted by mzk57

Very simple, Diego Maradona is the greatest of them all. No question about it. & 2nd is Paolo Maldini

Your reaction here proves me my point completely. Why is Maradona the greatest? According to your logic it must be becoz he won most trophies...

you should know that your precious Maradonna only won:
3 Championships 1981 1987 en 1990
2 domestic cups 1983 1987
1uefa cup 1989
1 supercup

world championships
1time 1986
1 time runner up 1990.

So if I follow the logic, Maradona won three things that matter 2 seri a titles one time the WC with Argentina. 3 trophies you consider to be valuable in comparison with others that's merely nothing. If you want to make being the greatest about winning most awards than Maradonna is not even close in being the greatest.

Sorry Pantera that I'm/we are practicly hijacking your thread but I promise to make other posts to

Originally Posted by Pantera

We'll destroy Valencia right and proper in Madrid. Good nights for good trophies.

3-2... That's nothing. 1-0 and it's home. I'm hoping for 4-0.

Though I believe that Real is # 1 of all time, but it can't stop me from saying that David Villa will destroy Real at their home. Get ready for a classic humiliation & Valencia would win 3-0

Villa? I don't think you'll be remembering Villa, boy.

You'll remember 4-0 and dancing in the fountains.