Mentalità Ultras

Originally Posted by jcastagn

1) The Lazio fan was taking part in a fight. If he wasn't fighting he wouldn't have gotten shot by accident.

2) Why are the laws stupid? Please spell it out for me.

3) Not sure what your point is on this one...is it that your are saying more roits and violence will continue? If so, way to prove my point about the Ultras.

Mirza,
Are the actions of the Ultras worth it if games are played with no fans? Or if the season ends because of violence? What if this most recent event causes for MORE laws and sercurity measures, will the Ultras riot again against that?

1) 2 groups of fans where fighting each other, they weren't beating some inocent man, woman, kid,... was it necessary to shot in group people who are fighting each other??

2) try to go with some organised group of fans on some game, and you'll se on the entrance why are the laws stupid, when police notice that you are part of fan group they are asting with you like with criminal...no mather how odl are you, or are you man or woman...

3) I was thinking, today one fna was killed in Toscany, and tomorrow will fan be killed in other town, police need to stop with their brutality with fans...and I know your next question will be, why shouldn't they be brutal if the fans are acting violent??...yes, beat up thos who are beating inocent people, who are destroying town, but please do not be the one who started all this, you think that fans will act violent if the police man didn't killed Lazio fan, majority will act normal and go to stadium to support their team, and those who will act violent arrest them..but the problem is that all over the world police is beating all fans no mather how old are you without any special reason.. while the real criminals are on the head of our countrys and leaving normal life...today when you go to game of your belovd club you aren't afraid of the oposite team fans, you'll fight with them for pride of your club, you have to be afraid of police who can beat you or arest you wthout any special reason

(I hope you understand what I wanted to say, sorry on my bad English)

Political reasons?

Originally Posted by icculus

look, i dont care if bunch of dudes get together in a field somewhere and beat each other up over who's soccer team is better...sounds kinda silly, but they shouldn't complain when the cops show up. and they should expect trouble and accidents to happen.



cops have a difficult job. ultra's sound like vary volitile people, ready to beat down someone over nothing. if i was in charge of keeping these people under control, i might be a little jumpy.


why should they expect for the entire league to stop when someone accidently gets killed at one of these brawls. they are putting themselves into this position. the cop would never have been even there if they were not breaking some laws.
did you see all the children at the atlanta game? all they wanted is to watch their hero's... who's poster is on their wall. You know that there was at least on kid there, at his first match, maybe his last due to his finacial situation, or whatever, and he doesnt get to see the match, because of accidental shooting, in fight between lazio and juve fans at a gas staion 100's of mile away?
why should i care, over here in the states about this fight and shooting incident. lets say for arguement sake, that this policeman meant to shoot the car, while it would be wrong, why shutdown a soccer game? the coralation just doesnt compute.



are flares really that cool? i used to enjoy playing with sparklers when i was a kid, but the novalty has worn off...

I answered on ost of this things in my previous post

Ultras have their way of life, some things that they enjoy in you probably can't understand cause you have diferent opinion and that is silly or fnny for you, but what can we do the life goes on (for example for me is funny to pay some money and go to wathc Nascar, but some people enjoy in that, and I respect their opinion)

and for flares, I'll ask you (probably for you funny question) is alcohol so cool? people can leave without it... I don't drink alcohol, and I can normly liv without it..but there are people who enjoy consuming alcohol it's same with flames

completly agree on nascar...
but for the life of me i just cant wrap my head around:

police shoot young man a gas station = no soccer games played

(you can add the words "accidently" "ultra" "in a brawl" into the above statement, but it still doesnt compute...)

Originally Posted by jcastagn

I thought it was sad watching Atalanta players pleading with their Ultras to stop their actions and the Ultras kept on going, defying the players of their beloved team, over what? An accident in tuscany that had nothing to do with them.

I agree! The Ultras should be listening to the players of the team they support. What kind of supporter are you if your not going to listen/support your team when they ask you to do or not to do something.

However, I believe the Ultras in this case were upset because when the police died last year all games were shut down. But now that an Ultra was killed by a cop, the games are allowed to be played.

Add to the fact that I believe it came out that the incident last year of the cop being shot was premediate and then executed under the mask of the crowd/Ultras getting out of hand.

If a cop dies in Italy or anywhere in the world, police from all over fly over to pay respects, because the view him as one of their own. Just like cops do, the Ultras in this situation, were standing up for one of their own. A man is dead, an Ultra.

IMO the each ultra was thinking...whether it be a police or an Ultra (which could have been me) the cases should be treated the same and the game stopped to pay respect. Especially under the (suspect) circumstances surrounding this young man's death.

Therefore, the Ultras were telling Atalanta if you play this game you're disrespecting an Ultra and through him us.

This article from theguardian is interesting:

http://football.guardian.co.uk/break...073546,00.html

Mr Anonymous: I understand the sentiment behind the riots, believe me...but is this the ONLY response that they could take?

That is mypoint with regard to this whole issue:

Yes, Ultras: I do understand your anger and frustration...but surely violence isnt the only answer. It shouldnt be, or else, if it is, lets all form tribes, and war incessantly with each other, for reasons like say, if 2 grandmothers from two different "tribes" have a dispute as to who has the cutest grandkids....good enough for us to riot, no? Good enuf for us to fight over?

No? It isnt? Then what is? An accidental death? A pre-planned death? What will fighting and probably more deaths cause? What will denying the majority of fans the pleasure of watching a football game solve?

Fix your society, and the problem will disappear methinks.

Originally Posted by Mr. Anonymous

I agree! The Ultras should be listening to the players of the team they support. What kind of supporter are you if your not going to listen/support your team when they ask you to do or not to do something.

However, I believe the Ultras in this case were upset because when the police died last year all games were shut down. But now that an Ultra was killed by a cop, the games are allowed to be played.

Add to the fact that I believe it came out that the incident last year of the cop being shot was premediate and then executed under the mask of the crowd/Ultras getting out of hand.

If a cop dies in Italy or anywhere in the world, police from all over fly over to pay respects, because the view him as one of their own. Just like cops do, the Ultras in this situation, were standing up for one of their own. A man is dead, an Ultra.

IMO the each ultra was thinking...whether it be a police or an Ultra (which could have been me) the cases should be treated the same and the game stopped to pay respect. Especially under the (suspect) circumstances surrounding this young man's death.

Therefore, the Ultras were telling Atalanta if you play this game you're disrespecting an Ultra and through him us.

Great point! I get how Ultras are like a family (or tight group, or however you'd like to classify them, but when one of my family, or friends, die we pay our respects. I don't expect others to do so as well. The cops didn't make the ultras go to the cops funeral. The Ultras could have paid their respect by banning together and all of THEM not go to the games. That would have been a great sign of respect that was showed the support to the young man and left soccer out of it.

And who shall fix the society? The Government? The Government can't controll the varieties in Italy at the moment. There are groups, organizations and mafioso that controls just as much as the Government, which is corrupted also. It's the same fight as it have been for many years now, and they won't give up. Football arenas is just a possibility to show their actions

Originally Posted by jcastagn

Great point! I get how Ultras are like a family (or tight group, or however you'd like to classify them, but when one of my family, or friends, die we pay our respects. I don't expect others to do so as well. The cops didn't make the ultras go to the cops funeral. The Ultras could have paid their respect by banning together and all of THEM not go to the games. That would have been a great sign of respect that was showed the support to the young man and left soccer out of it.

nice post
I'll try to explain you something, on of the bigest reason ultras reacted like they did (violence) is cause every of them could be on place of young Lazio fan one day, every one of them might be killed that morning, cause that fight betwen juve and lazio fans wasn't the only fight, you have that before every game..and that is why I was saying today Lazio fan, tommorw Palermo fan, or even some fan who you know
if ultras chose the way you said, to not to go to game, that wouldn't effect on anything, but this violence way is even worse for themselves cause now will authority make new laws and ultras will be in biger troubles than they are now..ultras are now like stabed animal, fighting til the last breath for some justice, in this cruel world, if you are just sitting and hiding from the problems you want solve anything, you have to show that you have your attitude, you must show to the police that they can't do what ever they wanna to and whenever they wanna, ultras are sick of police violence (I wrote about that in one of my previous posts) even if that is worst for you, you never mustnt surrender...

Ultras are fighting for the same cause all of them

mirza keep fighting for what you believe in. stand up to tyranny and brutality at all costs. (involves your government and police...not a soccer game)

meet, fight and kill your fellow italians because they were born in a different part of the country, and like a different soccer team than you. (involves you and them, not the actually soccer team. do you think pirlo wants you stop the game because you hate the police? no he doesnt want kaka, and kaladze to leave milan, because they cant go a season without some needless drama off the pitch.)

Don't think morale is the solution

Lazio fan that was killed WASNT A PART OF THE FIGHT!

pleeeease, lets not talk bull**** about this incident!

He was sitting in the car and policeman shot him in the head! As his lawyer, that his brother hired said, and confirmed by witnesses: " it was a cold blooded murder.."

Even if he was in a fight, in a FIGHT ( do you guys, somehow, know what a fight means??? ), he should NEVER been shot!! I just wannt know will the policeman / murdeder , now get 30 years of jail, or he'll get fired and suspedned...buhuhu....

Football fights are going on for 50 years now, but today media in speaking about every ****ing football fight in the world, like its the biggest damn problem on earth. 20 people got into a fight on a gas station - OH MY GOD! Oprah would dissagree with that! And McDonalds too!!

Lets not support violence, and lets bann those who are acting violently, but what the hell is wrong with flaired, some smoke "bombs", flags that are made by fans, insulting ( not risistic ) transparents...

And oh, in this extremly "free" world, in the end, you cant say what you want on a banner...nice,nice...
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Long live L.A. Lakres, Boston Celtics and NY!! bucch of ******* nothing more, cant stand a simple fight without making a tragedy out of it. Book'em and put them to jail! This is a tragedy and police is guilty! YES; POLICE IS GUILTY!!

Originally Posted by jcastagn

Great point! I get how Ultras are like a family (or tight group, or however you'd like to classify them, but when one of my family, or friends, die we pay our respects. I don't expect others to do so as well. The cops didn't make the ultras go to the cops funeral. The Ultras could have paid their respect by banning together and all of THEM not go to the games. That would have been a great sign of respect that was showed the support to the young man and left soccer out of it.

You're going too deep, the Ultras were saying...Don't play and respect what happend. If you are going to respect the police who died by stopping games, do the same for us, your supporters who come to all your games. We support you through thick and thin...support us now when we need you.

I'm not even saying their right...I'm just explaining where their coming from.

If you look at the portion that I quoted I'm only addressing the rukus/altercation that broke in The Bergamo. (Atalanta's Stadium)

Everyone is quick to jump to the defense of police...some of them are worse than the Ultras. (more than you think) They have their bad eggs too as do the Ultras or any large organization. There is no way if the tables were turned and the Ultra shot the police by accident could the Ultra (or any other person) explain this situation away...so why should the policeman?

The police just have the means & support to cover their $#!T up better and make it smell like a bunch of roses at the end.

Look at the facts of what happend to the young man and take soccer/calcio/futbol out of the equation and what you're left with is young innocent man shot dead by police.

How do you make a statment to those in power? Petitions, the court system, letters to government officials. All often go unheard.

I don't support violence of any kind or say that all police are bad...but don't automatically/blindly take the police side because they're police.

mrki,
if the policeman shot the man by accident, do you think he should get 30 yrs in jail.
could you look his children in the face and tell them:
"you dont get to have a dad because, while trying to keep the peace, he accidently shot someone..."
how many peoples lives has this policeman saved? how many times has he risked his life to protect you or someone you love?

should he be removed from the force, absolutely...but to call him a murderer is wrong.

i bet the policeman feels terrible about it, but why was he there?
people were fighting...is that against the law in italy...i dont know? i love a good fist fight, but i would expect some police to arrest me if i was in a group fighting another group at a gas station. i also would expect the police to be ready to defend themselves against an already agressive bunch.

why did he pull his gun?
a car was speeding out of the station...is that against the law in italy? is that dangerous not only to the passengers but to other motorists?

no one is saying that it isnt tragic.
what is it that you want anarachy?

i have friends and family members that are policemen and woman...and here in the civilized section of the world, most of them are honorable and respected.

now if this cop had a political agenda, or took aim and shot this kid from over 200m into a moving car and killed him, i would say murder, but as it appears it was an accident. why ruin more lives. sacrificing this cop at the ultra alter is not going to bring the dead lazio fan back.