I would like to see Raul with Milan.

Oh my a friggin scolding from jaahhh man! Holy ****e did you ever scold ME like this before???? LOL! I gotta laugh because I thought I was the only p!ss and vinegar in MM. Looks like there is a lot of venom spitters in MM and I find it awesome when ya do some regulat'n here Warro! Bottom line.... no you didnt go overboard. I'm the one who's usually guilty of going overboard.

Originally Posted by Warro Bantan

Ego? What ego? But this, Billy, I ask you, is a reasonable and logical statement as to why he shouldnt be a Milan player? Maybe, because maybe rossoneroid knows the player personally, having played with him for the Spanish national team...or something...

That is another issue all together...I am taking about the general consensus which seems to be: we don't really need him AND we could spend the money elsewhere.

Originally Posted by Warro Bantan

What dont you get? eeediat Vieri hasnt scored for Milan, and probably wont till after the winter break. Ok, the others can, and will, but Mr. Miss Many Sitters? Puhleeeease!!

That statement is wrong Warro because Vieri was a free transfer while Raul would probably cost us $$$..demand higher wages than Vieri and not be as 'keen' as staying on the bench as Vieri. Plus, Vieri has a proven track record in Serie A...I'm not implying Raul would STINK but Spanish players have not exactly DOMINATED Serie A as of recent (Javi Moreno, Jose Mari anyone??!)

Originally Posted by Warro Bantan

This last, I agree with totally, but what we are discussing here is one poster´s thoughts regarding Raul in Milan, I am quite aware of our defensive frailties, but this isnt what this thread is about...

No but I'm just trying to demonstrate WHY people are quite opposed to the idea that Raul would be a good addition...we need defenders NOT more strikers.

Originally Posted by Warro Bantan

And they are entitled to that opinion, though I beg to differ and say: We could have him instead of eeeediat Vieri IMHO.

Like I said before..this is wrong...you imply the choice was VIERI or RAUL..they come with different price tags, different BAGGAGE and different risks.geriatrico...Ahem, I mean galacticos.

Originally Posted by Warro Bantan

but I cannot see another reason for the pure venom that I see spewing forth in some posts whenever the name Real Madrid is mentioned. What else could be the source of that angst and bile? Could it be that they or their families were persecuted by Franco? If that is the case, then hate Franco, not Madrid. Hate Juve, or Inter...those clubs are worthy of hate. And big time too!

good line

Oooohhhh a good comeback Billy. I think the score is even. You were able to convince me of not being a venom spitter. Well I guess that leaves you out of the Kui's venom spittin club. I would of loved to have you as a member. LOL!

I cant wait for the response.

DOnt mind me guys though! I'm just being a punk a$$ this morning.

Originally Posted by Warro Bantan

Easy. Raul contributes more to the game than Vieri ever will. Vieri outside of the box is the epitome of the saying "Fish out of water". Outside the 18 yard rectangle, he is useless, while Raul contributes as I had mentioned before, with incisive, defense splitting passes, TACKLES, and shots on target, if not goals.

Raul tends to show up in big matches, hence is UCL record. It boggles me that people can be so unreasonable as to discount the ALL TIME LEADING SCORER in what is widely regarded as the toughest league in the world, as a has been, and not worthy of a Milan shirt. (like below for eg)

ur kiddin man... ust cuz he has a great ecord doesnt make him a star for eternity, it only gves him respect, there are many players like him like del piero and owen who were the center of attention at one point and then the center of attacks at another does that mean we should buy them because they were once the best at what they do??? ... and honestly id take del piero or owen anyday before raul because they were able to prove their worth when called upon at times unlike raul who hasnt had a positive month for the past 4 years now! and who are u kidding?? raul??? tackle??? ... yeah in ur seventh dream, i cant understand where u came up with that?? .. and as for laziness, vieri is very lazy and always has been even when he stole headlines at atletico, lazio, juve, or inter. raul just became lazy, he never was, becoming lazy is much worse than always being lazy IMO. the raul today is so much worse than vieri and if ur argument is than raul has great history then greatfor him, but so does vieri.

Ahh, pa7uel, no he isnt. When was the last time you saw him play? 1000s of players better? Be serious. None alive have his UCL record..the closest is DiStephano...and he is what, 70+?

right now, there are many strikers ahead of raul on my list... what i dont like about ur argument is that u think that just because he has that record it makes him a definite starter anywhere on earth... have u seen shows like behind the music? ever heard of one-time wonders?

nothing lasts for ever ... raul doesnt even deserve a starting spot with real IMO .. by the way, gattuso was amazing the 3 seasons before, and so was seedorf, but theyve been playing poorly the last 2 seasons, seedorf has a record himself, he won the CL 3 times with 3 differnt teams, does that guarentee him a starting spot??... i think not, and u seem to agree with me n this

What dont you get? eeediat Vieri hasnt scored for Milan, and probably wont till after the winter break. Ok, the others can, and will, but Mr. Miss Many Sitters? Puhleeeease!

yeah so did crespo last year, but when he did, he didnt stop, give vieri a chance!

That isnt my point either Billy, actually, Real could sit back, relax, not win the UCL for 10 years, and it would take a decade at least, for another club to even come close to their what...8 or 9 UCL trophies?

and??!...

Originally Posted by Warro Bantan

What dont you get? eeediat Vieri hasnt scored for Milan, and probably wont till after the winter break. Ok, the others can, and will, but Mr. Miss Many Sitters? Puhleeeease!!

Originally Posted by Billy Montreal

That statement is wrong Warro because Vieri was a free transfer while Raul would probably cost us $$$..demand higher wages than Vieri and not be as 'keen' as staying on the bench as Vieri. Plus, Vieri has a proven track record in Serie A...I'm not implying Raul would STINK but Spanish players have not exactly DOMINATED Serie A as of recent (Javi Moreno, Jose Mari anyone??!)

We could do with him over Vieri, and to stick to the real basis of this thread, since in the title post, price/cost was not mentioned, lets not compare apples with oranges (rotten apples in the case of eeediat Vieri, and Seville Oranges in the case of Raul) .

But if the choice were, hypothetically, Raul on a free, vs Vieri on a free....proven in Serie A or no, I dont even think Vieri would even be considered more than for a fleeting second. The obvious choice would be the Spaniard.

And as to Vieri being "satisfied" on the bench...lets see how satified he is after the winter break and no starts...plus, Raul is an automatic starter...he could take Seedorf´s position on the left any day in my book, if we opted for Gila and Sheva as our two strikers.

Please do not compare Javi Moreno and Jose Mari with Raul...thats like...saying your Sunday league team could give Milan´s first team competition, maybe even drawing a match with the rossoneri 1st 11. It just isnt a fair comparison.

Plus, we have been hotly linked with Torres recently...actually, dont we have first refusal or something like that with Atletico?

Originally Posted by Warro Bantan

And they are entitled to that opinion, though I beg to differ and say: We could have him instead of eeeediat Vieri IMHO.

Originally Posted by Billy Montreal

Like I said before..this is wrong...you imply the choice was VIERI or RAUL..they come with different price tags, different BAGGAGE and different risks

I was not implying that, I was simply stating that if I had the choice of either, on equal terms, ie free, or say at $10M, I would chose Raul 100 times over. And to make the point that there are players currently in our roster that he could replace, 100 times over.

Originally Posted by Warro Bantan

We could do with him over Vieri, and to stick to the real basis of this thread, since in the title post, price/cost was not mentioned, lets not compare apples with oranges (rotten apples in the case of eeediat Vieri, and Seville Oranges in the case of Raul) .

But if the choice were, hypothetically, Raul on a free, vs Vieri on a free....proven in Serie A or no, I dont even think Vieri would even be considered more than for a fleeting second. The obvious choice would be the Spaniard.

the obvious choice??? ... u mak raul sound like hes god sent!! ... maybe for u but, i for one would take vieri.. im sure many would agree with me on this now... ill post a poll once vieri scores his first goal (we got idiot here who would go for raul just because vieri still didnt score and not because hes any better)

As far as success??? I dont know how anyone would not prefer Raul at his best over the other players mentioned at their best. Right now people see to not prefer Raul , who's not at his best and prefer other players who havent shown anything for a couple years either. Besides... What are we using as an indication for measured success??? Warro has shown this but the majority havent. I would seem the anti-madrid sentiment is taking precedent over many smart peoples better senses.

Originally Posted by mk18

ur kiddin man... ust cuz he has a great ecord doesnt make him a star for eternity, it only gves him respect, there are many players like him like del piero and owen who were the center of attention at one point and then the center of attacks at another does that mean we should buy them because they were once the best at what they do???

No mk18, it certainly doesnt, but tell me, did we buy Vieri on recent form or on his historical performance? In other words, history, while no guarantee of future outcomes, is the next best thing to a crystal ball for use in determining whether or not to make an investment.

Not at all, but why did we buy Vieri, well k... and honestly id take del piero or owen anyday before raul because they were able to prove their worth when called upon at times unlike raul who hasnt had a positive month for the past 4 years now! and who are u kidding?? raul??? tackle??? ... yeah in ur seventh dream, i cant understand where u came up with that?? .. and as for laziness, vieri is very lazy and always has been even when he stole headlines at atletico, lazio, juve, or inter. raul just became lazy, he never was, becoming lazy is much worse than always being lazy IMO. the raul today is so much worse than vieri and if ur argument is than raul has great history then greatfor him, but so does vieri.

In every single game in which I have watched him play, he has tackled, sometimes retreating into his own half to recover a ball...he is not a Gattuso, but he tackles 50 times more per game than most forwards I know. As to lazy, I strongly suggest you watch Real´s next match on Sat, in the Madrid derby, and come back to me with "Lazy".

Becoming lazy, vs lazy from birth...semantics. Raul IMO isnt, and maybe we should just agree to disagree, but please, for the purposes of this discussion, if u r able, watch the derby this weekend, and lets "talk" again.

How many goals has Vieri scored in the UCL? Shoot, how many games has he even played? Look at his games to goal ratio in the UCL, then we can compare it with Raul´s. Now that is proper analysis. Without even a glance, Raul puts Vieri to shame.

right now, there are many strikers ahead of raul on my list... what i dont like about ur argument is that u think that just because he has that record it makes him a definite starter anywhere on earth... have u seen shows like behind the music? ever heard of one-time wonders?

I am glad that there are many strikers ahead of Raul on your list sir, but thats your list, and you are entitled to have one, and I am entitled to disagree with it.

One hit Wonder...Raul? Please dont make me laugh, Raul will be scoring goals, and creating them, for quite some time more. If Raul scores less than double figures in a season for Madrid its a crisis...few other forwards have that as a standard.

nothing lasts for ever ... raul doesnt even deserve a starting spot with real IMO .. by the way, gattuso was amazing the 3 seasons before, and so was seedorf, but theyve been playing poorly the last 2 seasons, seedorf has a record himself, he won the CL 3 times with 3 differnt teams, does that guarentee him a starting spot??... i think not, and u seem to agree with me n this

Raul doesnt deserve a starting spot, when half of the goals they have scored this term came from his assists? Gimmie a break.

yeah so did crespo last year, but when he did, he didnt stop, give vieri a chance!

Dont mention Crespo and Vieri in the same sentence unless its something like: Vieri couldnt even clean Crespo´s boots.

Thanks Kui for your rational response. mk18, many people in this forum may prefer Vieri to Raul, but that doesnt make your point any more valid than mine. A players contribution to a game goes more than goals scored. The off the ball running (like Vieri runs when he doesnt have the ball ), assists, and tackles made are tangible indicators of a players impact on a game. There is no comparison between Raul and Vieri in this. Vieri, who cant score in an open goal, who tackles no one but himself (or the ball, or incredibly both at the same time) and whose off the ball walkingis legend, is the wrong person to compare with Raul. Use Del Piero, or Sheva, when comparing other forwards to the great Spaniard. Not useless, eeeediat Vieri. Thats like comparing a Ferrari to a Fiat (no points for guessing who the Fiat is)

Post your poll, if only to generate further discussion, and to measure the extend of the anti Madrid sentiment among our posters.

How many goals has Vieri scored in the UCL? Shoot, how many games has he even played? Look at his games to goal ratio in the UCL, then we can compare it with Raul´s. Now that is proper analysis. Without even a glance, Raul puts Vieri to shame.

Raul may well have scored more UCL goals than Vieri (that is quite natural though since the Spaniard has a lot more games in the UCL under his belt), but if you look at their performances in the national leagues, it's a different story:

Vieri has netted 143 times in 214 games in Serie A - that is 0,67/game.

And Vieri managed 24 goals in his 24 Spanish Primera División appearances - 1 goal/game.

So Vieri has scored a total of 167 goals in 238 league games - 0,70/game.

In comparison with that Raul has made 177 goals in 392 Primera División appearances - 0,45/game.

So now who is the Fiat and who's the Ferrari?

While Raul is quite a versatile attacker, in terms of scoring goals Vieri simply is numero uno del mondo, or at least has been for nearly a decade.

Originally Posted by Warro Bantan

No mk18, it certainly doesnt, but tell me, did we buy Vieri on recent form or on his historical performance? In other words, history, while no guarantee of future outcomes, is the next best thing to a crystal ball for use in determining whether or not to make an investment.

In every single game in which I have watched him play, he has tackled, sometimes retreating into his own half to recover a ball...he is not a Gattuso, but he tackles 50 times more per game than most forwards I know. As to lazy, I strongly suggest you watch Real´s next match on Sat, in the Madrid derby, and come back to me with "Lazy".

Becoming lazy, vs lazy from birth...semantics. Raul IMO isnt, and maybe we should just agree to disagree, but please, for the purposes of this discussion, if u r able, watch the derby this weekend, and lets "talk" again.

How many goals has Vieri scored in the UCL? Shoot, how many games has he even played? Look at his games to goal ratio in the UCL, then we can compare it with Raul´s. Now that is proper analysis. Without even a glance, Raul puts Vieri to shame.

I am glad that there are many strikers ahead of Raul on your list sir, but thats your list, and you are entitled to have one, and I am entitled to disagree with it.

One hit Wonder...Raul? Please dont make me laugh, Raul will be scoring goals, and creating them, for quite some time more. If Raul scores less than double figures in a season for Madrid its a crisis...few other forwards have that as a standard.

Raul doesnt deserve a starting spot, when half of the goals they have scored this term came from his assists? Gimmie a break.

Dont mention Crespo and Vieri in the same sentence unless its something like: Vieri couldnt even clean Crespo´s boots.

Thanks Kui for your rational response. mk18, many people in this forum may prefer Vieri to Raul, but that doesnt make your point any more valid than mine. A players contribution to a game goes more than goals scored. The off the ball running (like Vieri runs when he doesnt have the ball ), assists, and tackles made are tangible indicators of a players impact on a game. There is no comparison between Raul and Vieri in this. Vieri, who cant score in an open goal, who tackles no one but himself (or the ball, or incredibly both at the same time) and whose off the ball walkingis legend, is the wrong person to compare with Raul. Use Del Piero, or Sheva, when comparing other forwards to the great Spaniard. Not useless, eeeediat Vieri. Thats like comparing a Ferrari to a Fiat (no points for guessing who the Fiat is)

Post your poll, if only to generate further discussion, and to measure the extend of the anti Madrid sentiment among our posters.

its useless to argue with u because at the end of everypost u mention the anti-madrid thing... yes i dont like real madrid, and as far as i have read neither do u as i recall (im not sure, forgive me if im wrong), but if its one thing i learned from life and football mainly these last few years is to give credit where its due because you would only be laughing at urself if ur not doing so. i have always said del piero was overrated, he seems to be playing great right now and people should stop bashing him and give him credit for that, im not saying he should go to the world cup, im saying people should be fair, u put all the past history of del piero aside and u look at him now and in the period coming to the WC then u chose wether he should go or not. thats my ideology and incase ur lost im gving u an example on how i think. as for raul, well i really dont understand why u keep going back to his CL history, in short i couldnt care less what he did, all i can say about it is 'wow thats a great record' but if im looking to buy some1 im not gonna buy him based on his record, ill buy him for his current worth and between u and me, no one thinks his current form is worthy of a switch here besides urself, however, that doesnt mean i would never look to buy him, if he finds his form once again, i might agree to him joining that offcourse if milan were short on strikers and his price tag was reasonable and somehow i find his style suitable to serieA.

as for the derby, well, u probably read about the current 'crisis' im in concerning football, so im affraid it will be verrrrrry hard to watch it.

and im still waiting to hear ur reply on the crespo and vieri qstion i asked... u seemed to run away from it... may i add that when both vieri and crespo played together at inter, vieri was the main striker and crespo was his 'sidekick' so to speak, so sorry im affraid ill have to put them in the same sentence together.

Originally Posted by Laudrup

Raul may well have scored more UCL goals than Vieri (that is quite natural though since the Spaniard has a lot more games in the UCL under his belt),

Sure...but lets keep it "real" : As you did below, lets do a goal per game ratio for the UCL arguably, the most difficult league in Europe, if not the world, then...we can "talk" again.

but if you look at their performances in the national leagues, it's a different story:
Vieri has netted 143 times in 214 games in Serie A - that is 0,67/game.

And Vieri managed 24 goals in his 24 Spanish Primera División appearances - 1 goal/game.

So Vieri has scored a total of 167 goals in 238 league games - 0,70/game.

In comparison with that Raul has made 177 goals in 392 Primera División appearances - 0,45/game.

Thanks Laudrup, I knew I could count on you to find the stats to undermine my position , which is cool, but lets add some peripherals, ie, other contributors to a game, ie, assists, or successfull tackles...not sure you can find those stats, but including those in the picture would be useful in painting a more complete picture.

So now who is the Fiat and who's the Ferrari?

Quite so Laudrup! Numbers dont lie, but can we do a similar comparison for this season? As a striker, you are only as good as your last game/season...I would go as far as to say, use last season´s figures, and tell me the results(if you have the time, I have given you so many assignments as it is! )

While Raul is quite a versatile attacker, in terms of scoring goals Vieri simply is numero uno del mondo, or at least has been for nearly a decade.

Ahh, but unlike Raul, eeediat Vieri´s star is in decline, and we may (unfortunately for Milan) never see that sparkle in the Serie A firmament again.

Originally Posted by mk18

its useless to argue with u because at the end of everypost u mention the anti-madrid thing... yes i dont like real madrid, and as far as i have read neither do u as i recall im not sure, forgive me if im wrong), but if its one thing i learned from life and football mainly these last few years is to give credit where its due because you would only be laughing at urself if ur not doing so.

I am not a Real fan, but I admire their football, when it works of course! Notice, so far, no mention of the antiMadrid thing!

as for the derby, well, u probably read about the current 'crisis' im in concerning football, so im affraid it will be verrrrrry hard to watch it.

So sorry about that mk18, as I dont know how I would manage without my football fix every weekend...but suffice it to say, I will post a match review which you can corroborate with other reports from other sites.

and im still waiting to hear ur reply on the crespo and vieri qstion i asked... u seemed to run away from it... may i add that when both vieri and crespo played together at inter, vieri was the main striker and crespo was his 'sidekick' so to speak, so sorry im affraid ill have to put them in the same sentence together.

No mk18, I didnt run away from it at all, but because I have always liked Crespo, and think him a much better player than Vieri, and didnt get caught in that side discussion.

Crespo is, as Vieri was, a proven goal scorer, and one that is much more involved than the target man that Vieri always was.

The discussion is centering on Raul, so to bring Crespo into the equation just creates further opportunities for heaping more abuse on "poor" eeediat Vieri.

I am actually dying for Vieri to score, if for nothing else, to give him a chance to prove me wrong.

Sure...but lets keep it "real" : As you did below, lets do a goal per game ratio for the UCL arguably, the most difficult league in Europe, if not the world, then...we can "talk" again.

Just for the record I think it is as hard for a striker to score in the Serie A - defensively the world's toughest league - as it is in the UCL. But that is not the issue, the numbers are as follows:

UCL:
Raul: 98 games, 50 goals – ratio 0,51
Vieri: 40 games, 18 goals – ratio 0,45

Raul, as you can see, is marginally ahead of Vieri.

Now before you will ask me to I will add those numbers to the league stats, and you get:

National league + UCL
Vieri: 278 games, 185 goals – ratio 0.67
Raul: 490 games, 227 goals - ratio 0,46

Thanks Laudrup, I knew I could count on you to find the stats to undermine my position , which is cool, but lets add some peripherals, ie, other contributors to a game, ie, assists, or successfull tackles...not sure you can find those stats, but including those in the picture would be useful in painting a more complete picture.

Be my guest finding those stats if they exist As I said, I don’t disagree with you that Raul is a versatile striker, but if we talk about who is the more effective goal scorer there’s no going around it: Vieri is in a class of his own. The numbers have spoken.

Quite so Laudrup! Numbers dont lie, but can we do a similar comparison for this season? As a striker, you are only as good as your last game/season...I would go as far as to say, use last season´s figures, and tell me the results(if you have the time, I have given you so many assignments as it is! )

Oh well, now that I’m at it (btw. you do quite a good job yourself to undermine your position ) :

2004/2005:

National League + UCL
Raul: 41 games, 12 goals - ratio 0.29
Vieri: 33 games, 13 goals - ratio 0.39

Ahh, but unlike Raul, eeediat Vieri´s star is in decline, and we may (unfortunately for Milan) never see that sparkle in the Serie A firmament again.

That is a rash judgment considering the fact that the guy has played what … 5 games for us. The way I’ve seen those games, Vieri has been able to earn the usual amount of goal chances which is very positive. It means that most probably it is only a question of time before he gets started. Also, Vieri missing sitters isn’t news, he has always done that (admittedly not as often as in the past months but you get the picture). The impressive thing about Vieri isn’t so much that he’s clinical, more so the amount of goal chances that he earns. The way that he earns them and his general style of play may not always be pretty - but he is extremely effective.

At last, I think it’s ridiculous to consider Crespo anything but a finisher (as an example he literally never assists goals). The best Crespo is the one that you don’t notice until he scores. If we’re talking both players in their prime I’d pick Vieri for sure (unlike if I had to make a choice between Raul and Vieri in their prime; that I would find difficult).

Well, looks like I am forced to agree with your analysis Laudrup, and numbers usually dont lie (unless you work for TYCO) ...and I am quite appreciative of the work done to prove me wrong...well, not totally wrong, as my peripherals (assists etc) are to me of equal importance to actual goal getting. But yes, Vieri has a better goal to game ratio than Raul, no doubt about that ....but I still think he is waaaaaay past his prime, while Raul still has some miles to go yet.

I mean, lets face it, for a player of Vieri´s size, and skill, he should score at least one goal per game. What..isnt he like 6 foot 2" or something?

Ok, but as to who gives more value to the team overall, I dont think anyone can question Raul´s inputs vs Vieri´s, and as you said yourself, despite the numerical superiority of Vieri´s goals to games ratio:

Originally Posted by Laudrup

...if I had to make a choice between Raul and Vieri in their prime; that I would find difficult).

I rest my case...not lost, but rather thrown out of court for insufficient evidence.

Oh, and as to the games Vieri has played for us to date...listen Laudrup, with all due respect, Vieri has been CRAP with a capital C in most, if not all of them.

Rui Costa gave him (for just one example) such a beautiful assist, one that even my 13 year old son could have put away, and for a striker to let his first( or was it second) touch gift the ball to the keeper...when the only person left to beat was the keeper...well that is just abysmal.

I mean really, I place Milan before all, (even the wife, much to her dismay..so I tell her when she complains, go marry an Inter fan, and you will have him all to yourself ) and so if eeediat Vieri regains his old form, I will personally be the happiest person on the planet, as his goals for Milan is what I want/need to see, not so many wasted chances.