Winter Mercato

Originally Posted by Stezagud

Since when does someone have to be Brazilian to be valuable?

Im not sure how much you know about Bent beyond the price but the basic fact is he is a proven goalscorer in the EPL. He is an almost perfect parallel for Gilardino actually, except he cost less. The old Italian tradition of over paying for players i guess

Gila cost Milan 24 mil euros, so he is not more expensive
as for Bent, he would probably have to score twice more goals in the EPL than he has to be compared to Gila - the goals bent has scored for ChA in his whole career there are what Gila was scoring for 1 season only at Parma - and in all fairness he is good player but is nowhere near 25 mil worth - considering the European market in general - let alone live up to the expectations the English press had for him and although he is still 23 or so, I don't think he ever will.

Anyways, people should realize that the English market for transfers between English clubs lives in a world of its own given the buying power of even smaller clubs thanks to the big sums of cash they get from TV deals ... and it's normal for good/very good players to reach evaluations that are considerably higher than they would have if it was two other european clubs involved in that deal ... hence the Mascherano+Tevez transfer to West Ham last year

what you think about Baptista hi is beter then emerson hi could play 2-3 roles

Originally Posted by GilAttack [11]

So Grimi went to Siena? Hahah, a walking disaster as I said back then.

honestly what did you expect Milan were buying Grimi for, a player with almost no experience in top football, back then other than keep him at Milanello for the rest of the year and then loan him out and/or use him in a deal for another player.
it's not like Real M did anything dif with that next-best-thing Marcello after all.
These players are young and can only get better but for that they need to play regularly and Milan or Real M is not the stage for them yet, and may very well never be.

Originally Posted by zeshkani

what you think about Baptista hi is beter then emerson hi could play 2-3 roles

after a season like that at Arsenal, after RO, I doubt Milan would spend their non-EU player spot on him ...

Originally Posted by Stezagud

Since when does someone have to be Brazilian to be valuable?

Im not sure how much you know about Bent beyond the price but the basic fact is he is a proven goalscorer in the EPL. He is an almost perfect parallel for Gilardino actually, except he cost less. The old Italian tradition of over paying for players i guess

I didnt say someone needs to be Brazilian to be valuable, I was just refeering how unless Bent isnt some young prospect that I havent heard of and is really good, then he isnt worth of that money. Since most of that young prospects come from Brazil, I've said the word "brazilian". But never mind, you missunderstood my suggestion.

Bent may be a solid goalscorer in EPL, and im not saying that he is a bad player. But to compare 25 mil price of Bent now and 24 mil that Milan played back then for Gilardino who was absolutly a beast in front of a goal , scoring about 70 goals for Parma as age of 21 or 22, beying the best Italian young forward, is simply absurde. Gila, when Milan bought him, and Bent now, are simply two differenf football worlds.

And I wouldnt say Italian teams are overpaying the players, maybe inter, but hey, their name is "Internazionale". Milan and Juve are known as the teams that buy only the most proven and hardly ever overpriced players ( not saying that we never overpriced a player...).

Gila cost Milan 24 mil euros, so he is not more expensive

exchange rates have changed, Gila cost £17.2m at the time

as for Bent, he would probably have to score twice more goals in the EPL than he has to be compared to Gila - the goals bent has scored for ChA in his whole career there are what Gila was scoring for 1 season only at Parma

Gila hit 50 in 96 games for Parma, Bent managed 31 in 68 for Charlton, so there isnt much difference in the rate. One clear difference is that Gila had Morfeo supplying him, and Morfeo is 10 times the playmaker that any of Charltons players are.

- and in all fairness he is good player but is nowhere near 25 mil worth - considering the European market in general - let alone live up to the expectations the English press had for him and although he is still 23 or so, I don't think he ever will.

You're paying too much attention to the press figures. The fee is £16m in total and that includes various clauses. For Spurs to have to pay the full amount they would most likely have to win the league (or at the very least qualify for the CL proper) as well as have Bent top score for them and become an England regular achieving a certain amount of caps. If all of that is achieved then he was worth the money

The real fee's Utd paid for Carrick and Hargreaves were nearer £10m than £18, and both Nani and Anderson deals were the same. Only if Utd dominate domestically and in the CL for 5 years and these players all stay that long will they then will cost the full fees, and again, if all that is achieved then they will have paid for themselves in prize money alone Another good example is Walcott who cost Arsenal £5m but the press figure was £12m

Anyways, people should realize that the English market for transfers between English clubs lives in a world of its own given the buying power of even smaller clubs thanks to the big sums of cash they get from TV deals ... and it's normal for good/very good players to reach evaluations that are considerably higher than they would have if it was two other european clubs involved in that deal ... hence the Mascherano+Tevez transfer to West Ham last year

Thats true, the smaller clubs can throw money around now and a proven EPL player is extremely valuable. Bent cost Charlton £2.5m despite being a regular scorer for the England youth sides and known to be a potential star. The reason he was so cheap is he hadnt proven himself in the EPL. A guy who scores 40 a year in Holland or France can fail in the EPL (Kezman, Morientes, Sheva etc ) but a guy who has already scored 20 a year for a relegated side can clearly handle the extra physical demands put on players here.

The extra money is coming in handy for a lot of sides too, for example 3 sides met Atletico's £25m demands for Torres, Liverpool, Inter and.........................Man City!

after a season like that at Arsenal, after RO, I doubt Milan would spend their non-EU player spot on him ...

agreed, i dont think i have ever seen a Brazilian with such bad basic skills as Baptista. His first touch tended to go further than a John Terry clearance!

He may be versatile but he doesnt fit into any particular role well, Milan tend to choose players who are considered specialists at one position at least.

Originally Posted by Hasan Rossonero

I seem to be one of the few who likes Cassano.

RO for Cassano+Emerson is a great deal.

i don't dislike Cassano as a player, just what he's become. Do we need his sulking and disruptiveness?

Cassano has something to offer, does Emerson? Is he better than Ze Roberto or Maresca? I'm not so sure. But those two for Oliveira is definately a good deal.

Originally Posted by Stezagud

agreed, i dont think i have ever seen a Brazilian with such bad basic skills as Baptista. His first touch tended to go further than a John Terry clearance!

He may be versatile but he doesnt fit into any particular role well, Milan tend to choose players who are considered specialists at one position at least.

It was pretty obvious that would happen, its hard to see any type of player who would adjust to the league perfectly. Many players from Spain end up failures in the EPL, however when they are sent back they end up scoring 20+ goals easy.

He even said it that playing in the Epl is more difficult, thats the reason I think he struggled.

Originally Posted by Stezagud

agreed, i dont think i have ever seen a Brazilian with such bad basic skills as Baptista. His first touch tended to go further than a John Terry clearance!

Originally Posted by Stezagud

Since when does someone have to be Brazilian to be valuable?

Im not sure how much you know about Bent beyond the price but the basic fact is he is a proven goalscorer in the EPL. He is an almost perfect parallel for Gilardino actually, except he cost less. The old Italian tradition of over paying for players i guess

Bent scored 20+ goals a season in EPL for 2 consecutive seasons? I didn't know that. Damn, what a bargain!

Originally Posted by Jim_UK

i don't dislike Cassano as a player, just what he's become. Do we need his sulking and disruptiveness?

Cassano has something to offer, does Emerson? Is he better than Ze Roberto or Maresca? I'm not so sure. But those two for Oliveira is definately a good deal.

I think we are taking a chance on cassano, trying to make him into a player he is supposed to be. Cassano is very talented as a footballer, he just need somebody to discipline him.

Originally Posted by Stezagud

exchange rates have changed, Gila cost £17.2m at the time

well, exchange rates change, inflation changes i.e. money's worth changes - 24 mil euros 2-3 years ago isn't the same as 25 mil euros now.
Not to mention that transfer market changes as well - Chelski were offering 32 mil and even more for Gila, and how much do you think they would offer for Bent?

Gila hit 50 in 96 games for Parma, Bent managed 31 in 68 for Charlton, so there isnt much difference in the rate. One clear difference is that Gila had Morfeo supplying him, and Morfeo is 10 times the playmaker that any of Charltons players are.

you are "cheating" here a bit - Gila's first season at parma was that of a reserve player and those 24 games in which he scored 4 goals were mostly games of 10-15 min of playing time for the guy, if that. The next season, he was reserve to Adriano for the first half of the season and became Parma's starting striker only after Adriano moved to Inter during the winter break - yet Gila scored 24 goals there.

So, taking off the 1st of his 3 seasons at Parma, and even counting the 2nd as a full season of him having a regular starting place, he scored 46 goals in 72 games for parma.

And he did that in Italy, most defensive league out there where players start a game thinking about defense and finish it thinking about ... catenaccio

As for Morfeo - you should tell him that cause he obviously doesn't know it himself ... and neither do the Parma fans of a team that was struggling to avoid relegation and did so thanks to Gila's 2 great season over there.
Morfeo is a good player but no reason to make him look like the second coming of Zidane just to prove a point

You're paying too much attention to the press figures. The fee is £16m in total and that includes various clauses. For Spurs to have to pay the full amount they would most likely have to win the league (or at the very least qualify for the CL proper) as well as have Bent top score for them and become an England regular achieving a certain amount of caps. If all of that is achieved then he was worth the money

you probably know the details better as I couldn't bother where Bent has gone and for how much
btw, just curious - was that on the tottenham or charlton site or just an interpretation of a journalist ... things that we read every day and then the following they turn out not to be true?

The real fee's Utd paid for Carrick and Hargreaves were nearer £10m than £18, and both Nani and Anderson deals were the same. Only if Utd dominate domestically and in the CL for 5 years and these players all stay that long will they then will cost the full fees, and again, if all that is achieved then they will have paid for themselves in prize money alone

Steza, I think the argument was about English clubs overpaying on players when they were transfered from one EPL team to another i.e. the inner transfers market forthe EPL - Nani, Anderson, and Hargreaves are NOT such players.

anyways, I think you ManU fans are trying a bit too hard to make it look like a steal
I don't know about Spurs, as the EPL inner market is off the hooks of the minds of mainland europeans but Do you really believe bayern or Porto (with so many teams after Anderson and the market having barely started) would agree on a deal like that ... teams that know well the worth of their players and ask for BIG money for them and don't just hand in gifts left and right?

Also, ManU had to pay the buy-out clause for Nani to take him hence the speed with which the Nani and Anderson transers were done and dusted in less than a day - only a really big cash offer whitheout much "IFs and IF thats" can do that for players who are among the most sought after in Europe.

so I don't see how that would include those 5 years of EPl and CL domination you guys might be chatting about in ManU forums ... again, seriously guys, what serious club would agree to a deal like that for it's most prized asset?
What else is left - Porto and Sporting will still be receiving money for Anderson and Nani when those guys will be retiring already?

even if there were some clauses, and maybe there were, they would not make a vast differene in the amount Bayern, Porto, Sporting would receive in the end of the day - say, just an example, if the clauses were all enforced, they would get 25mil as opposed 22 in case they aren't.
Similarly, the clauses for RvN to Real transfer were of similar nature but ended up bringing 1M to ManU or so and all that for 1 year ... it's not like they would be getting 1M every year that he has left on his Real M contract.

Let's be a bit more realistic here - ManU made very good, maybe even great deals as it is but there is no reason to make it sound like they fooled everyone else - ManU gets good players but also pays good money for those players.

Originally Posted by zlatanov

honestly what did you expect Milan were buying Grimi for, a player with almost no experience in top football, back then other than keep him at Milanello for the rest of the year and then loan him out and/or use him in a deal for another player.
it's not like Real M did anything dif with that next-best-thing Marcello after all.
These players are young and can only get better but for that they need to play regularly and Milan or Real M is not the stage for them yet, and may very well never be.

But Marcelo was highly regarded as a young prospect, but when Milan bought Grimi a whole country was laughing at that. As I put back then, he had a zero chance of success here.
Obviously you can buy a top prospect and he could end up being a failure, but you cant say that Grimi was a good player at any time during his pro career.

Italians are overvaluing their own players more than anyone else in the world ( not counting the english )

So..... useless discussion by 2 boring members !


Edit : I know the name of the midfielder Milan will sign in next few days. I'll keep it as a secret for now