Mentalità Ultras

Since you are so well informed you should know that Croatia is not a rich country and that people in here dont fly around the Europe and visit CL matches as they feel. Its more like 1000 km in one way with a bus to see Milan, and then the same way back... And ANYONE cant sometimes spare some free time unless he is a fool that has dedicated his life to money and work for 12 hours a day.

Im glad you will be in Italy as then maybe you will understand that "no al calcio moderno" doesnt mean "no to progress", and that modern football is not a progress but regress of football...

Maybe then you'll learn what an ultra means and start to understand what football realy is in italy. Untill then , I hope toronto raptors fans behave well. peace.

Oh, and to repeat, I AM NOT AN ULTRA. I have never been in a fight in my life ( except when I was a kid ), and I have never thrown a flaire and something on a pitch. I do not support violence of any kind, but ultras culture is not just fighting, it has also a lot of nice things that make football unique game in the world and european football culture something that cant be seen anywhere in the world in ANY sport, exceot in brazil and argentina of course.

NBA, baseball, basketball in general, NHL, NFL, they do not have that flair that european football has, and never will have. No al calcio moderno is something you need to understand first and then talk against it.

Originally Posted by mrki

...but ultras culture is not just fighting, it has also a lot of nice things that make football unique game in the world and european football culture something that cant be seen anywhere in the world in ANY sport, exceot in brazil and argentina of course...

Nobody denies that, but don't you think, that in recent time the ultras somehow fail to show those "nice things that make football unique"? Apart from the Milan-MU game, I don't remember anything good to be said about the ultras in the last year. May be becouse they just do not do anything good to the team anymore...
The problem is in them, not in the football clubs, not that much in the government too. The ultras are those, who create the problems and they have to realize that.

Originally Posted by Rayno_acm

Nobody denies that, but don't you think, that in recent time the ultras somehow fail to show those "nice things that make football unique"? Apart from the Milan-MU game, I don't remember anything good to be said about the ultras in the last year. May be becouse they just do not do anything good to the team anymore...
The problem is in them, not in the football clubs, not that much in the government too. The ultras are those, who create the problems and they have to realize that.

I dont deny that, but all the problems in italian football are not just becouse of ultras. This particular problem was started by a police and not ultras. A simple fight on a gas station is not something spectacular or super dangerous.

Since Fossa fall apart ( due to a policital influence amongst other factors ), Milan ultras are in crisis. They are banned for flaires, their own flags, banners and so on... ultras lead the cheering in the SS and we all know that San siro without full curva of lutras is not the same stadium as it is with them.

serie was fixed in the past 10 years as it can be seen, the refs are all on someones pay chechue, and still they blame all the problems on ultras - interesting theory...

some ultras, like Lazio curva, are simply disgusting for their fasistic orientaion, but one of the slogans of a real ultras gropu is " ultras with no politics " Oftenly, even when Milan was much stronger then now, Fossa whisled on Berlusconi and Galliani... as they whought politisc have nothing to do with real football cheering.

Originally Posted by mrki

Since you are so well informed you should know that Croatia is not a rich country and that people in here dont fly around the Europe and visit CL matches as they feel. Its more like 1000 km in one way with a bus to see Milan, and then the same way back... And ANYONE cant sometimes spare some free time unless he is a fool that has dedicated his life to money and work for 12 hours a day.

I know Croatia is a poor country, with tourism being a major boost for the economy. That wasn't my point. It was just a way for you to see that the argument "if you don't have the been there done that t-shirt" don't comment has some merit, but is generally designed to minimize debate.

Originally Posted by mrki

Maybe then you'll learn what an ultra means and start to understand what football realy is in italy. Untill then , I hope toronto raptors fans behave well. peace.

If all ultras behaved like how Milan's ultras behaved, I would have no problem. But a majority of them don't. A good chunk of them are racist.

I don't really watch any North American sports except maybe hockey. I don't doubt, by the way, the passion of ultras. Maybe I should experience it, but I don't doubt the atmosphere is electric and gives you goosebumps. I don't doubt that I will feel blown away by their singing and pyrotechnics. I also know that European sport is far more intense and almost a way of life for many. But passion does not equal violence. If the ultras announce tomorrow that they will quit racism and violence, then I will sing their praises with you.

Originally Posted by mrki

Im glad you will be in Italy as then maybe you will understand that "no al calcio moderno" doesnt mean "no to progress", and that modern football is not a progress but regress of football...

Why is modern football a regression for the sport? I can give you reasons why ultras (not Milan ones) are . Lazio, Atalanta, and Verona ultras (perhaps the three most brutal in the country) are notoriously racist. Is racism progress? Should I look the other way just because they sing and create atmosphere?

When you look at stadiums in Spain, with beautiful seating, and families, and children, do you say, this is not progress? I assume you prefer the large concrete monstrosities that pass as seating in Italy's stadiums. I think Italian stadiums on most days look depressing. And then when I see ultras fighting, it's the icing on the cake.

This idealistic impression you have of the ultras is utterly at odds with the reality. If the ultras culture was "nice" we wouldn't be having this discussion. We would instead be talking about how Gilardino missed another sitter against Atalanta, and how Dida fumbled a Doni shot. We would also be attributing their mistakes to the fiery, but non-violent, atmosphere in Bergamo, where fans sang at full volume to intimidate the players.

Yeah, the Italian government suck, FIGC suck too. They went too far by banning the flares and the choreos.
But the respond of the fans is not the right one. With this violence the ultras only will loose, they give more power to the government, give a reason for more bannings and the fans will loose even the few rights left, that they still have. Now the fans won't be allowed to follow their team when the team plays of home.
What more have to be done, so the fans will realize, that what they do is wrong?

Lazio, Atalanta and Verona ultras are disgusting, I agree. And facist and rasict live among us, in everyday life, not only in football stands.

i do not idolise ultras, or support violence, but you said, in some posts page or two back, that you dont mind if the ultras go away...somthing like that, correct me if Im wrong. Football without them will not be the same, no way.

Take a look at the Man Utd - Kyev match in the last roung of CL played at the Old Trafford. The atmosphere was so sad I could barely watch it. Barca, one of the most prestigious clubs in the world, has so pathetic crowd its horrible to see. Madrid also. Its all about the "moredn" football. You cant make football modern, you cant change essence of humans passion for sports and competiotion, you can only destroy it. I do agree that they should bann or even put in jail people that did that in Bergamo, but that the autorities are doing to ultras is simply horrible.

I also support that atalanta fans demanded the match to be stopped! It was a fair thing to do, and since FIGC didntreact well, and in time, they did it their way - which it oftenly wrong, i do agree.

Arsenal build a new stadium, that looks like another 500 of those all around the world. Where is the legendary and unique Highbury? Liverpool will take down Ainfeld! If Milan every leaves San Siro it will be a disasted, it doesnt matter that we will have new and modern seats! who cares about the seats in those 2 hours on the stadium every 2 weeks...

Police and italian gouverment can do a waaay better job then they are doing right now it italia. This is ridiculous. Theyr last priminister was Don Berlusconi, now its mr."nice guy" Prodi... whole south of a country in runned by mafia and still the main problem are ultras? hahahaha...

P.S.

To bash Gila we have "games and tactics" topic...

Originally Posted by mrki

NBA, baseball, basketball in general, NHL, NFL, they do not have that flair that european football has, and never will have. No al calcio moderno is something you need to understand first and then talk against it.

have you ever been to pittsburgh?
you accuse hassan of not understanding the atmostphere in san siro, because he was never there, yet you think there is more flair at at european football game than a pittsburgh steeler football game.

its is as intense as the inter-milan derby every week. even when we play the minnows of the nfl, the stadium is sold out and loud....60,000+ people loud... every week.

sold out since the 70's ... waiting list tickets is over 20 years.

and guess what, steeler fans are dieing every day... some do to old age, some to violence, and i bet a few have been killed by the local police....but the we dont stop the games. if those hand full of idiots in atalanta tried to stop a game here in pittsburgh, they would be beat down by the remaining fans that have wanted to watch the game.

and all we need to create an atmostphere here is a little yellow towel... no pyro is needed, no cute choreo's, just the game. what happens in the stands is 2ndary to what happens on the pitch. it seems you care more about what is going on in the stands than on the field?

id rather watch kaka than you in the stands holding a flare, or see a big picture of "insert your favorite choreo here"

Originally Posted by icculus

have you ever been to pittsburgh?
you accuse hassan of not understanding the atmostphere in san siro, because he was never there, yet you think there is more flair at at european football game than a pittsburgh steeler football game.

its is as intense as the inter-milan derby every week. even when we play the minnows of the nfl, the stadium is sold out and loud....60,000+ people loud... every week.

sold out since the 70's ... waiting list tickets is over 20 years.

and guess what, steeler fans are dieing every day... some do to old age, some to violence, and i bet a few have been killed by the local police....but the we dont stop the games. if those hand full of idiots in atalanta tried to stop a game here in pittsburgh, they would be beat down by the remaining fans that have wanted to watch the game.

and all we need to create an atmostphere here is a little yellow towel... no pyro is needed, no cute choreo's, just the game. what happens in the stands is 2ndary to what happens on the pitch. it seems you care more about what is going on in the stands than on the field?

id rather watch kaka than you in the stands holding a flare, or see a big picture of "insert your favorite choreo here"

I didnt accuse him of nothing, I just said that European culture is something that is so far from America that it cant be easily understood. NO IT CANT. no internet, no tv can help in there.

Ssame goes to South american football. To understand why its important to have drums and dance while Brazil plays, you need to feel it. I can say: " I dont need drum or I dont need to dance samba to watch Ronaldinho..." But even to understand the way Brazilians play their football, you need to feel it. Can we Europeans feel the brazilian rithm of football? no.

comparing Milan-Inter with some Pittsburg match is a comedy worthy of Shakespeares best days...

Actually mrki, American sports are not as insipid as you suggest. One of my good friends in high school back in the States (where I used to live, before I came to Canada) was a Jets fan, and he was very serious about it. He attended every game he could, and when he returned from the game he would be hoarse from yelling.

Choreos etc. are a cultural idiosyncrasy. The lack of them doesn’t mean that American sports are dull.

I guess I can see what you’re trying to say. Poor attendances in Serie A, however, are not a great advert for football right now. And one thing that American sports doesn’t have is monkey noises from the crowd, a hallmark of some Spanish and Italian ultras.

With all that said, I prefer football (soccer) to football (gridiron). But that doesn’t mean that North American sports don’t have a fantastic atmosphere.

Originally Posted by mrki

I didnt accuse him of nothing, I just said that European culture is something that is so far from America that it cant be easily understood. NO IT CANT. no internet, no tv can help in there.

Ssame goes to South american football. To understand why its important to have drums and dance while Brazil plays, you need to feel it. I can say: " I dont need drum or I dont need to dance samba to watch Ronaldinho..." But even to understand the way Brazilians play their football, you need to feel it. Can we Europeans feel the brazilian rithm of football? no.

comparing Milan-Inter with some Pittsburg match is a comedy worthy of Shakespeares best days...

Have you been to a Pittsburg Steelers game? It can't be easily understood. no internet, not tv can help there. You have to experience it to believe it.

You can't use an agrument for yourself (some members not being able to be at the San Siro), and then call comparing Milan-Inter with a Pittsburg game comedy if you haven't experienced being at a Pittsburg game.

And yes I have been to the San Siro, I went to the first game fans were allowed in the stadium vs Sampdoria. It was fanstatic! The Ultra's were great and brought an atmosphere that did give me goosebumps. But you know what was even more special than that? Seeing Kaka, Ronaldo, Gattuso play in that game. I also got to see my hero Maldini play vs Celtic. So if disbanning the ultras would allow more people to experience what I did then I'm all for it.

Here's the funny thing... at a lot of stadiums and in different sports, the home team tries to "pump up the croud" with marching bands, flashing lights, music, profesional pyrotechnics...ect.
but here at a steeler game....nothing....all thats needed are the fans and the team. yellow towel optional. very intense, the people here bleed black and gold, as you bleed red and black.

now you saying the game needs all this extra stuff to be fun or exiciting shows your opionion of the game itself. some people actually enjoy watching the game, and dont really care what color you paint your face, or what your flag says, or what songs you sing.

now when i travel to the san siro, would it be nice to be a part of an energetic croud...yes.

do i want to the games to be called off because some political agenda, no.
do i want to travel too italy and not be able to watch a game because young people there hate the police. no.

Originally Posted by Rayno_acm

Nobody denies that, but don't you think, that in recent time the ultras somehow fail to show those "nice things that make football unique"? Apart from the Milan-MU game, I don't remember anything good to be said about the ultras in the last year. May be becouse they just do not do anything good to the team anymore...
The problem is in them, not in the football clubs, not that much in the government too. The ultras are those, who create the problems and they have to realize that.

are you talking just about Milan ulras, or ultras in general?
and can I got some videos or pics of that magical pittsburg steelers fans???

in the mean time enjoy in those videos:

Fenerbahce:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LBBPo...elated&search=

Panathenaikos:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r-udrNZR7Ro

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=beDg2Iy_mSQ

Originally Posted by MIRZA

are you talking just about Milan ulras, or ultras in general?
and can I got some videos or pics of that magical pittsburg steelers fans???

in the mean time enjoy in those videos:

Fenerbahce:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LBBPo...elated&search=

Panathenaikos:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r-udrNZR7Ro

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=beDg2Iy_mSQ

i didnt mean to get into a discussion about steeler fans, i just wanted to point out that crazy, die hard fans can be found outside of soccer/football.

if you think soccer has the exclusivity on hard core fans, your niave, (just ask any of our members from philly)

but my point is you can be crazy, and loud without doing the stuff that STOPS THE GAME.

be an ultra, be crazy, sing, jump, scream, sing songs, do choreo's, wave your flag, meet the your fellow italains in a field somewhere and beat the living sh t out of them because they like another team...JUST DONT DO ANYTHING THAT WILL GET THE GAME BANNED, OR SEND YOUR STAR PLAYERS TO ANOTHER LEAGUE. leave your agenda at home, it doesnt belong in sport.

if your interested in steeler mania (yeah they call it that) a quick youtube search provided this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZlHqxxTjaAQ

and if your interested in why steeler fan is pumped:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tH56TinQgAo

and the steelers still sell out the stadium when its -10(f) degrees and snowing (see pict)

and finally, steeler fan could care less about some writer that wore tights and wrote plays.

though i really like that first Panathenaikos video...thats cool.

Originally Posted by icculus

be an ultra, be crazy, sing, jump, scream, sing songs, do choreo's, wave your flag, meet the your fellow italains in a field somewhere and beat the living sh t out of them because they like another team...