Banter 2009/2010

Geo and ACM you both missed the point. I'm tired of writing TONS of text because I need to explain what I wanted to say. The point of my discussion is that we should be and act REAL. And it's not real to ask from our management to spend 60 M this summer.

And Geo, Mourinho didn't need complete season to have clear thoughts, he had it from the beginning, just he couldn't do it with the players he had so he made the best tactics for whole team (it's similar to Mancini's but not the same), and he continued to work on bringing players needed, and after year and a half he completed the puzzle, and what's most amazing, he even earned some money for his team!
Bolded part is a difference between Mourinho and Leonardo. Mourinho knows how to make a system to suit the players he has at his disposal at any moment. On the other hand, whatever Leonardo tries, if it's not 4-3-3, it happens to be ridiculous. He simply can't make his team work in any other system than 4-3-3, and when Pato isn't there even 4-3-3 doesn't work, he had almost half of season without Pato and he couldn't find a way for Hunter, Borri and Dinho to work together. He has three very good, even great, CFs and he made a system in which only one of them can work. I don't want to go on with this, again, my intention wasn't to compare Mou and Leo anyway.
Just I don't see any bright future with Leonardo as our coach. I hope I'm wrong, because I really like the guy, but unfortunately I'm not. Forget tactics, forget his lack of authority among the players, the worst thing is that he couldn't fix ONE position for whole season, he couldn't make one player to look better than he actually is in his system. And when I see other coaches deal with players like Badstruber, Muller, Pranjic as playmaker, Rafael, Gibson, Evans, Gobbi, Cris, Molinaro, etc, I'm really sad. Even one of the clumsiest DMs in the history of the game, Van Bommel, in Van Gaal's system looks better than all 3 Milan's DMs.

The reason why we should all want the 4th CL spot for Italy is because it will improve the overall level of Serie A.

More teams in CL = more teams motivated to play good football = a better Milan team to match other teams

I hope I explained it well.

Anyway, I can't force myself to support Inter, but I do hope they win.

Originally Posted by GeoTav

1986: Berlusconi becomes the owner of Milan

86-87: 5th
87-88: 1st
88-89: 3rd + winner in CL
89-90: 2nd + winner in CL
90-91: 2nd
91-92: 1st
92-93: 1st + runner up in CL
93-94: 1st + winner in CL
94-95: 4th + runner up in CL
95-96: 1st
96-97: 11th
97-98: 10th
98-99: 1st
99-00: 3rd
00-01: 6th
01-02: 4th
02-03: 3rd + winner in CL
03-04: 1st
04-05: 2nd + runner up in CL
05-06: 2nd (then finally 3rd because of Calciopoli)
06-07: 4th + winner in CL
07-08: 5th
08-09: 3rd
09-10: ...

Just for some memory ... I don't think there were forums in 1996 ? I would have loved to see the reactions of people at that time.

Geo in 1996 /1997 and 1997/1998 there was a bad finish no doubt however they tried to improve the squad in each of those seasons players didnt work out especially the Ajax guy's. The average age of theteam wasn't over 30 they did not sell there best player get away with it then sell there next big thing and not once were any of the players called "champions" , and never did anyone say well we have been in 5 CL finals and won 3 and won 5 scudettos in 10 years.
There was a winning mentallity and good management even though some /alot of players didnt work out between 1996-1998.

The attitude now and the running of the club is bad , there is no sign that anything will change , you are very quick to shoot people down and say be patient it would be easy to be patient if there was a noticeable plan but they clearly don't know where they are going to go.Its obvious they do not want to spend or maybe can't.

But to fail to see what is happening and just always think you are right is a bit much , this is not 1996 its 2010 the team is in bad shape as you are aware of 16 players over 30 11 over 32 and only a 26 man squad 4 of which never play.

There was forums in 1996 just not for Milan , Inter had one tho.
But in 1996 - 1998 there was obvious investment and attempts to fix the bad finish's now there is none .It's not the end of the world but it is dissapointing , we have had 5 years of cheap and bad signings Pato and Dinho Flamini Silva aside , all our best players signed since 2005 wer Dinho Pato and Flamini and Silva only Pato was expensive and that was only $22 million abou 15 or 16 millDinho was 18 mill and worth it.

No one is expoecting huge money we just well I expect something better than nothing these last 2 years.

Originally Posted by Revolver

Geo and ACM you both missed the point. I'm tired of writing TONS of text because I need to explain what I wanted to say. The point of my discussion is that we should be and act REAL. And it's not real to ask from our management to spend 60 M this summer.

And Geo, Mourinho didn't need complete season to have clear thoughts, he had it from the beginning, just he couldn't do it with the players he had so he made the best tactics for whole team (it's similar to Mancini's but not the same), and he continued to work on bringing players needed, and after year and a half he completed the puzzle, and what's most amazing, he even earned some money for his team!
Bolded part is a difference between Mourinho and Leonardo. Mourinho knows how to make a system to suit the players he has at his disposal at any moment. On the other hand, whatever Leonardo tries, if it's not 4-3-3, it happens to be ridiculous. He simply can't make his team work in any other system than 4-3-3, and when Pato isn't there even 4-3-3 doesn't work, he had almost half of season without Pato and he couldn't find a way for Hunter, Borri and Dinho to work together. He has three very good, even great, CFs and he made a system in which only one of them can work. I don't want to go on with this, again, my intention wasn't to compare Mou and Leo anyway.
Just I don't see any bright future with Leonardo as our coach. I hope I'm wrong, because I really like the guy, but unfortunately I'm not. Forget tactics, forget his lack of authority among the players, the worst thing is that he couldn't fix ONE position for whole season, he couldn't make one player to look better than he actually is in his system. And when I see other coaches deal with players like Badstruber, Muller, Pranjic as playmaker, Rafael, Gibson, Evans, Gobbi, Cris, Molinaro, etc, I'm really sad. Even one of the clumsiest DMs in the history of the game, Van Bommel, in Van Gaal's system looks better than all 3 Milan's DMs.

Firstly, I think we agree: people asking to spend 100M for X players this summer just forget reality. It's why I think we should sell Ronaldinho, as I think we'll have something like 10-15M of budget for the mercato. By selling Ronaldinho (8M x 2 years = 16M = price of his contract + 10-15M as extra-money for the loss of the player = 26-31M, fair price ? Added to the 10-15M of budget, it gives to the club a comfortable amount of money to buy some interesting players), we would be able to start to build again a winning team.

Then, if you don't want to write tons of text to explain what you want to say (reading that, I personnally take it as a half-hidden way to say "you're so stupid, I need to explain many times the same thing"), two solutions, you can choose either one or the other:
- explain better
- go to a chatroom

If he had clear thoughts from the beginning: why bringing Muntari who's probably going to leave this summer ? Why bringing Quaresma, the most useless player of Inter in their whole history (with Mancini) ? The fact is that Mourinho had an idea when arriving in Inter, he took some players to make this idea real, and he failed.

And I think we already had this discussion once or twice on this same thread, but tell me what system would have been the best with our current players ?!

We have no AM/Trequartista (Ronaldinho isn't and will probably never be because he had his chance to show he could have been an AM at the start of the season and he failed);
- 4-3-1-2 or any formation with an AM: no way

We have no real winger (Pato isn't, and Ronaldinho is the slowest winger in the world , thanks, he can pass the ball, well not really nowadays);
- 4-3-3: ok for Ronaldinho if in good form

Like ACM told you, but you didn't reply, Leonardo had no way to change his system, Mourinho got a good team when he came to Inter, he tried something, that didn't work, well he just waited the following summer by setting the former system of Mancini (ok, if you want, a little changed, but of course, they're not the same coaches, it can't be exactly the same).

Oh and the end, ummmmh ...
Bayern actually plays with the trio Ribéry-Schweinsteiger-Robben as "playmakers", Van Bommel still looks ridiculous in their team, then you quote Rafael, Gibson and Evans, well they're young players, and apart from Rafael who is a young player with a probably bright future, the others are not starters.
This way, we could say "when I see Leo deal with players like Antonini or Abate, amazing" (we're one of the best defences of Serie A, at least we were, I don't know since the few bad results).

PS: You don't want to compare Mourinho with Leo, but you do it in each of your posts, but what you forget is to compare the rosters of both teams !!

Originally Posted by bayern

Jucilei according to Brazil journalist sold to Europe club. unknown yet. 8 Million Euros.

Don´t get me wrong, bayern, but can you tell me where you saw it? Tv?

I´m asking that because I find nothing on Brazilian press... at least in the reliable press.

That said, thats(8m) where I think his price is today, and would turn into a amazing purchase for any club.

I just hope Jucilei takes the right decision, and goes to the right team. He´s already receiving consideration for Brazil NT(after WC), and a wrong move could damage his chances for next year...

Selling Dinho seems a logical solution but who's to say in keeping with recent times that MGT won't just keep the money and put Mancini there instead.

Originally Posted by GeoTav

Firstly, I think we agree: people asking to spend 100M for X players this summer just forget reality. It's why I think we should sell Ronaldinho, as I think we'll have something like 10-15M of budget for the mercato. By selling Ronaldinho (8M x 2 years = 16M = price of his contract + 10-15M as extra-money for the loss of the player = 26-31M, fair price ? Added to the 10-15M of budget, it gives to the club a comfortable amount of money to buy some interesting players), we would be able to start to build again a winning team.

Then, if you don't want to write tons of text to explain what you want to say (reading that, I personnally take it as a half-hidden way to say "you're so stupid, I need to explain many times the same thing"), two solutions, you can choose either one or the other:
- explain better
- go to a chatroom

If he had clear thoughts from the beginning: why bringing Muntari who's probably going to leave this summer ? Why bringing Quaresma, the most useless player of Inter in their whole history (with Mancini) ? The fact is that Mourinho had an idea when arriving in Inter, he took some players to make this idea real, and he failed.

And I think we already had this discussion once or twice on this same thread, but tell me what system would have been the best with our current players ?!

We have no AM/Trequartista (Ronaldinho isn't and will probably never be because he had his chance to show he could have been an AM at the start of the season and he failed);
- 4-3-1-2 or any formation with an AM: no way

We have no real winger (Pato isn't, and Ronaldinho is the slowest winger in the world , thanks, he can pass the ball, well not really nowadays);
- 4-3-3: ok for Ronaldinho if in good form
nged, but of course, they're not the same coaches, it can't be exactly th!!

As for attack, i'm beggining to think more and more we should pursue a FAST trequarista type and go 4-3-3/4-3-2-1 w/ ronnie and him behind Pato. Pato's future is #9 and unless we get ourselves a real classy #9 might as well move pato there and deal with fact he's a little small. He could easily be like etoo only more clinical.And hey when we need more power we can start borriello w/ pato

Originally Posted by Brasileiro

Don´t get me wrong, bayern, but can you tell me where you saw it? Tv?

I´m asking that because I find nothing on Brazilian press... at least in the reliable press.

That said, thats(8m) where I think his price is today, and would turn into a amazing purchase for any club.

I just hope Jucilei takes the right decision, and goes to the right team. He´s already receiving consideration for Brazil NT(after WC), and a wrong move could damage his chances for next year...

brasiliero, would u compare jucilei to ramires? They seem very similar to me. Both would do WONDERS for milan's midfield... flamini, jucilie and seedorf or pirlo would work.

Originally Posted by Jay Crisp

Selling Dinho seems a logical solution but who's to say in keeping with recent times that MGT won't just keep the money and put Mancini there instead.

You see, few minutes ago, you were replying me it was too easy to say "be patient" ... so yes, I'm maybe too optimistic about our near future, but I could reply you exactly the contrary: too easy to condamn the club before the mercato even starts ...

Originally Posted by GeoTav

You see, few minutes ago, you were replying me it was too easy to say "be patient" ... so yes, I'm maybe too optimistic about our near future, but I could reply you exactly the contrary: too easy to condamn the club before the mercato even starts ...

For god sake Geo Im going by what the MANAGEMENT OF THE CLUB ARE SAYING , that there will be no big spending and there will be no spending , over the last month they have said no spending in the summer . They are saying it so it seems to reason that there will be no spending , that and all the players we are linked to are free (thats not a bad thing once they are good) I do not know why you think that money will be spent and yes I think if Dinho was sold for say 15 mil and they saved 8 mil on his wages that , that 23 million would not be re-invested in two good players covering the wage aswell. We'll see in the summer and Im not sayin we'll see hoping that the squad won't be improved , I really hope Im wrong and hope we sign what we need for money or free that doesn't matter.

@ Geo, Muntari is a 'negative' player; not very useful going forward, but an absolute beast at breaking up opposition plays. He's also strong and a hardworker. Just the sort of player Mou loves as DM. He didn't do well so Thiago came in. Quaresma was supposed to add some imagination to the team, He flopped, in came Sneijder and Pandev.
Here's ur alternate formation a 4-4-2. A flat midfield of Abate/Flamini- Ambro- Pirlo- Dinho/Seedorf with H11 and B22 as our strikeforce.
I think what Revolver is saying is that a good SYSTEM MAKES THE PLAYERS LOOK GOOD, nt that they're actually very good

Originally Posted by Jay Crisp

For god sake Geo Im going by what the MANAGEMENT OF THE CLUB ARE SAYING , that there will be no big spending and there will be no spending , over the last month they have said no spending in the summer . They are saying it so it seems to reason that there will be no spending , that and all the players we are linked to are free (thats not a bad thing once they are good) I do not know why you think that money will be spent and yes I think if Dinho was sold for say 15 mil and they saved 8 mil on his wages that , that 23 million would not be re-invested in two good players covering the wage aswell. We'll see in the summer and Im not sayin we'll see hoping that the squad won't be improved , I really hope Im wrong and hope we sign what we need for money or free that doesn't matter.

When the management says we won't spend, that means we'll have a very limited budget for the mercato. But if they decide to sell a player, we just don't know what they will do as they never said they would sell any player this summer !!

Shegs, this system wouldn't work in my opinion because to play with a flat midfield like that, you need running players.

Originally Posted by Milano84

brasiliero, would u compare jucilei to ramires? They seem very similar to me. Both would do WONDERS for milan's midfield... flamini, jucilie and seedorf or pirlo would work.

Their role were similar here in Brazil, but they´re different. Ramires wasn´t only a all purpose mid in Brazil, he was a all purpose player. He is at his best roaming all the pitch...

Ramires also played some AMD in Cruzeiro, and imo just now in Benfica is learning to play at just one side of the mid. Still isn´t the same Ramires of Cruzeiro, but the fact he become a starter on his first year in Europa, even changing his style(and in a bad form) shows a lot.

Said that, imo Jucilei is on another level. Both are very good lads, humble and hard workers, but Jucilei is the better player now and will be in the future. Body, skills, drible, vision, pass... Jucilei is better than Ramires in all.

Brasiliero my friend I fell a sleep waiting for the games you recommended Have you seen Hernanes? ( aldough it seems Milan is not ready to bring him in, or anyone expencive )

And 2 timngs:

- I do not support some oppinions that have occured in here ( more then few ), that we should be glad that Inter in in the CL final. Or more, that someone who is a rossonero can support Merda in any possible match. It is simply ridiculous thought and I dontthink anyone from San Siro's Curva sud has 1% of simpathy towards Merda's CL success. I jumped 2m high when Krkic scored in the end, but unfortunatelly it was called a handball. I hope they loose as much as they can and then they get relegated to serie B as Moggi wants his revenge. First step is the return of Agnielli family in Juventus ( that noone commented in here ). We'll not see this circus Juve anymore in the future, you can be sure.

- Serie A will not be stronger and more motivated and with more quality just coz Inter won vs Barca and ca win CL, Italy can keep 4th CL place etc. You have quality or you dont, that is it. Motivation can be good when you have quality to use, when you dont have it you can be as motivated as Gattuso, but you still suck. Serie A is in a horrible state and this year it was worst year as far as I can remember ( looking at quality ). As sad as it sounds, money brings quality into football. Roma again has to sell, Viola also, Milan has no money, Lazio is on the verge of serie B... Palermo and NApoli are ok and the rest is simply norhing worthy of talking about.

question for Brasiliero: Have you followed Pastore? What do you think of the way he palys that "trequartista" role? He reminds be of Rui or Boban a bit, not Kaka' as people say. Aldough he tends to play inside the box and vertical etc. Today its extremly hard to find classical CAM that has artistic vision, and that is why - football soeaking - its was tragedy we sold Kaka'. Its easy to find good CB's, solid fb's, young midfielders, but there are always only few great CAM's. So my no.1 wish for a great team is a great CAM. Thre rest can be built, but "brain of the team" cannot.

Originally Posted by Gabriel489

Give Inter some credits for making it this far. Heck even when Milan was the best team in Europe a few yrs ago, they were never once close to winning the triple. And at that time the squad was much better than the one Inter has now.

I am hoping Inter would do a Bayer 04 Lervekuson, but I know it is difficult. As long as they don't win the CL, I am happy. I really don't care that much about the two Italian ones.

And Milan has NEVER wanted to do well in the Italian Cup. It was so obvious year after year that our victory at 2002-03 was almost certainly an accident.

Originally Posted by Siregar

Inter remain inter, no matter how good their anti football are.

Exactly, they may win the CL ten years in a row, but I would still hate them the same. They might deserve some credit, but it doesn't mean I will give any to that merda team. I just hate them.

Originally Posted by GeoTav

Then, if you don't want to write tons of text to explain what you want to say (reading that, I personnally take it as a half-hidden way to say "you're so stupid, I need to explain many times the same thing"), two solutions, you can choose either one or the other:
- explain better
- go to a chatroom

Nothing half-hidden, believe me, it's just I begun discussion with ACM and then you just read my last post and entered discussion, which turned the other way.

As for Mourinho, Quaresma was great winger at Sporting, he just lost himself in a big club, just like Gilardino in Milan. Mourinho couldn't predict that. And Muntari, he was very good last season a regular starter, but it's seems he lost his motivation when Mourinho attacked him because his fasting. Muntari is a good player and when in form he can do the same job as Motta or Stankovic.

And for formations, it's isn't as simple as that. For example, 4-3-3 is just "rough" system, just a starting formation, there are various ways to make that system work for your players. It isn't about 4-3-3 or 4-3-1-2, a coach is paid (actually overpaid) to know what we, ordinary people, don't know about tactics. I'm must mention Mourinho again, he made Eto'o work as a winger, Pandev too, Sneijder sometimes acts as a winger too (positions exchange), with strong tactics it's surely possible to make Dinho, Borri and Hunter work in 4-3-3. Hunter doesn't have quality to make width in attack so Leo should make him going to center, along with Borri, so Dinho stays left or moves into center, and other player, Seedorf possibly, runs from center to the right side to make width. That's just one solution.