All posts re: the Italian Football Scandal (Moggipoli)

The ten matches are:

16.a giornata
Juventus-Milan 0-0 Bertini
24.a giornata
Inter-Roma 2-0 Trefoloni
Livorno-Sampdoria 1-0 Tagliavento
Reggina-Milan 0-1 Racalbuto
Fiorentina-Parma 2-1 Paparesta
Siena-Messina 2-2 Bertini
31.a giornata
Sampdoria-Palermo 1-0 Rodomonti
32.a giornata
Fiorentina-Messina 1-1 Nucini
33.a giornata
Bologna-Fiorentina 0-0 Bertini
34.a giornata
Fiorentina-Milan 1-2 De Santis

Originally Posted by zlatanov

I see your point but doubt that in cases like these there ever was much hope of getting your hands on paper, hard-copy docs or any proof of that nature.

On the desk of Moggi according to police report:

Note: Must send Maserati to Pairetto
File: Complete listing of our referees
Phone book: Home numbers to player wives
Book: How to get what you want - By Don Corleone
Doll: Vodoo doll with several nails in it, looks like Collina
Handcuffs: To take care of Paparesta

Originally Posted by zlatanov

all you need is words coming from one guy's mouth into another guy's ears and the business is all set, no need for contracts, no need for keeping ballances so that you show them to Juve's board of directors or anything like that.

I said this in one of my earlier posts of this thread.

So, all in all, phone taps like these are probably your best proof after a signed confession from one or all of those involved.

Still need a substantiated motive. If we are trying to fix the Italian world of football we need to know why they did this or why it happened. When you establish this you can then tackle the problem itself. The only thing being done here is to try to get Juve/Moggi... out of mind out of sight. It's like homeless people. Shooing them away doesnt address the problem in order to fix the reasons for people being homeless.

Originally Posted by Kui

Still need a substantiated motive. If we are trying to fix the Italian world of football we need to know why they did this or why it happened. When you establish this you can then tackle the problem itself. The only thing being done here is to try to get Juve/Moggi... out of mind out of sight. It's like homeless people. Shooing them away doesnt address the problem in order to fix the reasons for people being homeless.

According to prosecutor hypotesis the motive is to get a lot of money by controlling transfert of players, Moggi was able to control all italian soccer market of transfert damaging clubs which do not follow his order, this way he controlled Siena, Reggina and Messina

Originally Posted by BlackRedInferno

According to prosecutor hypotesis the motive is to get a lot of money by controlling transfert of players, Moggi was able to control all italian soccer market of transfert damaging clubs which do not follow his order, this way he controlled Siena, Reggina and Messina

Ok... very good. Now for me to believe this, explain to me "how" fixing matches equals to controlling the transfer markets?? Is this the motive or reason to why Moggi was fixing matches??? Obviously $$$ is heavily involved to the scandal. How is the calciomercato being affected by Moggi fixing giornata 17 match Parma against Cagliari as an example???

Originally Posted by Kui

Ok... very good. Now for me to believe this, explain to me "how" fixing matches equals to controlling the transfer markets?? Is this the motive or reason to why Moggi was fixing matches??? Obviously $$$ is heavily involved to the scandal. How is the calciomercato being affected by Moggi fixing giornata 17 match Parma against Cagliari as an example???

The idea is that clubs which did not agree with Moggi about transfer, were punished by referees. Alessandro Moggi, Luciano's son, is heavily involved being president of GEA.
Moggi was able to menace clubs to get what he wanted, he was able to influence journalists to defend Juventus and blame referees who made errors against Juventus.

The point however is that if they will penalise us, they will do it in afflictive way..for ex. if they penalise us with 5 points we couldn't care the less, while an afflictive measure would be to drop us behind the fourth place regardless of the amount of points penalised

But i'm confident we'll demonstrate the phone calls were nothing out the ordinary and confusion and uncertainty about evidences against the charged part is a point for us

Originally Posted by Hasan Rossonero

The ten matches are:

16.a giornata
Juventus-Milan 0-0 Bertini
24.a giornata
Inter-Roma 2-0 Trefoloni
Livorno-Sampdoria 1-0 Tagliavento
Reggina-Milan 0-1 Racalbuto
Fiorentina-Parma 2-1 Paparesta
Siena-Messina 2-2 Bertini
31.a giornata
Sampdoria-Palermo 1-0 Rodomonti
32.a giornata
Fiorentina-Messina 1-1 Nucini
33.a giornata
Bologna-Fiorentina 0-0 Bertini
34.a giornata
Fiorentina-Milan 1-2 De Santis

what happened to the milan games vs brescia, siena and chievo? i thought those were the games were involved in

Originally Posted by BlackRedInferno

The idea is that clubs which did not agree with Moggi about transfer, were punished by referees. Alessandro Moggi, Luciano's son, is heavily involved being president of GEA.
Moggi was able to menace clubs to get what he wanted, he was able to influence journalists to defend Juventus and blame referees who made errors against Juventus.

Again you'll have to connect the dots for me to how the "match fixing" effects the transfer market. Are you saying he fixed games only as a form of intimidation to clubs to give up players??

If Juve goes to Serie B it would be a crack of immense proportions: they are a shareholding company and all the contracts will have to be renewed in smaller proportions.

Roughly they risk to lose 300-350 mill, considering tv rights, cl moneys, sponshorships and whatever


Not to mention the fact that Courts will need their time to finish investigations and sentence all the parts. Serie A next year risk to start in october, and this is not the worst thing, the problem is that Euro competitions need the final list within July and we won't even know the final Serie A table until, at best, August or September.

Sorry for the length of this post, but I think we need to have some
perspective here...

Many people in this forum are talking about "cleaning up" Serie A and
looking at this scandal as something that is due only to Moggi and a
few bad apples from the last ten years...A popular opionion seems
to be that once this scandal is taken care of, then everything will be OK.
The sad truth is that italian soccer has always been corrupt at some level -
at least since the end of WWII.

I'll let the sociologists debate whether this tendency to corruption is
endemic in Italy because of the historic lack of a strong central
government or because Italy was made into a nation relatively late
(1870) from a hodge-podge of different states...That large-scale
corruption in the political, economic, and social realms is a problem
in Italy is clear from the Loggia P2 scandals, tangentopoli, mafia, etc., etc...
I was born in Italy and my entire family is italian, so I don't think I'm
prejudiced here...but I grew up in the States, so I think I'm more
objective about these things than many italians who have spent their
whole lives there...

I mention the above briefly because sport is part of this culture. So the
current scandal is merely the latest in a series of scandals involving
manipulations by the powerful (Juventus, Milan, Inter - but not just
them...) to further their ends.

In the 1960's there is strong evidence that both Juventus and
Inter bribed referees in their quests to win European trophies. This is
spelled out IN DETAIL in Brian Glanville's book "Champions of Europe".
Glanville was the Rome correspondent for a London newspaper for decades
and is as astute and UNBIASED (he's english, dammit! he didn't grow up
rooting for any of the big italian clubs...all italian sport journalists, either
have or had a rooting interest and are inherently biased in some ways
as are all fans - including us about Milan) an observer
of italian soccer as I have ever read. What he has to say about what
went on in those days is shocking, and the italian press was and is always quick to bury this stuff.

There was a lot of amphetamine doping going
on in those days and throughout the 1970's. Read Carlo Petrini's book
"Nel Fango del Dio Pallone" for a frightening look at the underside of
italian soccer. Petrini, by the way, played a few seasons for Milan in
the 1970's.

Throughout most of the 1970's, foreigners were not allowed to play in
Italy. There was a grandfather clause for those who had been playing
in the 1960's like our own Schnellinger, but by and large, the Serie A
teams were made up largely of italians. Juventus dominated this
period because all the smaller clubs were "feeders" of their best players
into Juve. Milan was great in the 1960s, but declined in the 1970's as
Rivera got old and we couldn't get any good players. Why did Juventus
dominate the transfer market? Or better, HOW did Juventus dominate
the transfer market? I don't know the answer to this, but rest assured
that the Agnelli's connections in the political/economic sphere had
everything to do with this.

The scandal that broke out in the late 1970s and got us sent into
Serie B for the first time, was a lot larger than what came out.
Bologna-Juventus was undoubtedly fixed (read Petrini's book!), but
the Agnelli's during that period were so powerful there was no
question that they were not going to be touched...We were not so
powerful and so we were sent down along with Lazio as an example.
Several players were banned for life including our own great goalie
Ricky Albertosi (he was a crook, but man was he fantastic!),
and the great Paolo Rossi was banned for 3 years (later reduced to 2 to allow him to come back and lead Italy to the 1982 World Cup).
This was a very big scandal involving fixed games by many clubs.

This match fixing has always gone on (at least since the end of WWII),
especially on the last days of the season when teams that are fighting
against relegation are playing someone that has nothing to gain. The
idea is that I do you (the team fighting not to be relegated) a favor, and
some day, when I'm fighting for the title or a european cup slot and you
are safe, then you'll lie down and let me win...Sadly, Milan has done
this several times in my memory. A game that stinks is the game
against Reggina from 2000/01, but also Milan-Reggiana 0-1 in 1994,
and worst of all Milan-Brescia 1-1 in 1993...that was embarassing.
Both Milan and Brescia needed a tie, the teams tapped the ball around
for 82 minutes and then Albertini put in a 30 yard shot by accident...
everyone looked distraught, no-one celebrated, then on the ensuing
kickoff, Brescia comes down, the Milan defense literally steps aside,
and boom it's 1-1 with 6 minutes left...C'mon, that was so transparently
fixed that it was just embarassing. The newspapers made a few
ironic comments and nothing ever came of it...
Read "The Miracle of Castel di Sangro" by Joe McGinniss for proof that
not only the Serie A clubs pull this crap...

And so now we come to the latest in an ENDLESS line of scandals.
For the umpteenth time I have to hear about how corrupt "the system"
is, and how "the culture needs to be changed"...Please...I'm almost
50 years old and I'm tired of hearing the same stuff OVER and OVER
again.

Here's what's going to happen: There will be some exemplary
punishments: Juventus may actually go down to the second division
(though I'll believe that only when I see it...). We may be penalized
a few points - enough to give Inter the title and to have us out of the CL
and into the UEFA cup (I wouldn't mind that, we need to win one of those
things to fill out the trophy case), some players and directors will be
banned for life or for period of 6 months to 5 years...everyone will say
how things have been finally cleaned up and "the culture has changed".
....and 20 years from now, we will have the same stuff happening
all over again.

So why do I bother following this stuff decade after decade? Well, as you
all know, soccer does get into your blood...I would like to think that MOST
of the games are legit...and I want to see Inter and Juventus in Serie B
at some point... and I may get my wish with Juventus in the next few months.

Cheers,
Loris

don't worry guys, nothing serious will happen to us.

In short: the whole of Serie A can be put into a BIG ****... :-(

Makes me wnat to live in Italy.

SO it is a witchhunt. Can happen to us then again. When will our heads be on the chopping block? Its been there before.