UCL SF 1st Leg: Manchester United vs. Milan

Originally Posted by Stezagud

I actually said this at the time in another thread, that the must win games werent the big 2 (Liverpool and Chelsea) but the smaller games. As long as Utd won those then the league was ours no matter what happened in the other 2 games. The Liverpool win was a bomus that basically let Fergie risk a weakened side against Pompey to keep players fresh for Roma, if we had lost to Liverpool the team would have been stronger, at least from the start.

mmmm, you make it sound as if ManU didn't care about the "big' games ... let's not go there, shall we?

My whole point from sentence one was that manU is where it is namely because they were consistent enough in getting points from smaller teams which made up for their less than impressive record vs Pool, Chelski and Arsenal ... this however doesn't mean that ManU treated big games as "whatever pts we get, it's a bonus" thing but did their best to win them ... and remember, the argument of the intense rivalry in the derbies goes both ways .

I also think that there is lot more lying in ManU's less than stellar record vs big teams in EPL - IMO, it shows not enough overall quality when it comes to measuring up with the best at the highest level ... or at least, definite lack of consistency of showing such capability of this ManU team ... and that's exactly the type of match-ups one could expect in CL (0 pts or 10 pts vs. teams like Pompey don't count here for anything) and the thing is - there is only one Roma out there, so for how long will the gifts keep coming at the hands of Rooney, Giggsy and Co?

true, Milan don't have much of a record in big games themselves but the first 2/3 of our season were average at best for a number of reasons - calciopoli, lack in physical preparation over the summer due to WC and calciopoli, etc, etc - so that's more or less understandable.
The first 1/3 of our season was just plain bad, the second 1/3 was used to make up for the lack in fitness and raise the team on it's feet (although we were still shaky), and the final 1/3 - the one we are currently in - we should be finally reaping the fruits of our work ... and so far, that's what has been going on.

the point is, it's is just now that we are starting to see the good old Milan come to form and this current side has little to do with the one that set those "bad" records in the first half of the serie A season ... Hence my belief we have more than a 50-50 chance of seeing ManU off, although if you ask the experts, ManU annihilated Roma, so Milan doesn't stand a chance too.

Personally the one thing that worries me about Milan is not the supposedly old defense that has no chance vs C. Ronaldos speed and stepovers but whether our fitness will hold up for the rest of the season ... if we keep away from injuries, I guess we should be able to keep players fresh with proper rotation.

mmmm, you make it sound as if ManU didn't care about the "big' games ... let's not go there, shall we?

I said it at the time and i believe it now, its not that they dont care, its that winning isnt actually important, not losing is

For example if Utd get a draw from Stamford Bridge and secure the title would they consider it a bad result? Same at Anfield, as long as it wasnt a defeat it was a good result, the fact we got a last minute winner made it a great result but 0-0 wsould have been fine. The rivalry was the same for both sides but winning was more important to Liverpool than to Utd for the reasons stated previously, losing or drawing meant nothing to them, a win was the only result that could appease their fans and keep them in touch with Chelsea.

I also think that there is lot more lying in ManU's less than stellar record vs big teams in EPL - IMO, it shows not enough overall quality when it comes to measuring up with the best at the highest level

I think you could be reading too much into it, for example if you look back to last season Utd beat all 3 of Chelsea, Liverpool and Arsenal at OT and got 2 away draws, only losing at Stamford Bridge. That would be a good record and yet that year we were nowhere near Chelsea in the league (due to dropping points vs the lesser sides) and went out in the CL group stages!

This season the younger players are more adept at breaking down teams who come only to defend, and this is taking the pressure off the bigger matches.

I understand that i must be hated for saying what i said but it is foolish to bury our heads in the sand. CR7 is a player that the WHOLE TEAM REQUESTED. I mean for a whole TEAM to ask for one player is quite extraordinary. For instance there is much division in our own team about the arrival of R10. Anyone who has watched manu games would see the kid is going to be special. Oh and i still believe that there is only one ronaldo but he plays for us

Originally Posted by Stezagud

I think you could be reading too much into it, for example if you look back to last season Utd beat all 3 of Chelsea, Liverpool and Arsenal at OT and got 2 away draws, only losing at Stamford Bridge. That would be a good record and yet that year we were nowhere near Chelsea in the league (due to dropping points vs the lesser sides) and went out in the CL group stages!

This season the younger players are more adept at breaking down teams who come only to defend, and this is taking the pressure off the bigger matches.

you do have a point steza, but referring to a dif season is a whole dif mix, I think. For instance, when ManU got those positive results, were they still playing in CL or were they able to concentrate exclusively on EPL and fight for 2nd spot? How about the other teams they beat ... were they still fighting in CL or did they have only EPL to worry about?
If you ask me, compoaring two dif season won't take us anywhere as there are two many variables and unknowns to take care of, although on paper it looks like a straightforward comparison.

I could give it a try though :

Pool under rafa seems to be focusing on CL mostly and the same could be said about Arsenal last year - all in all, both teams didn't have EPl title in mind once Chelski ran away in the points and all they cared about was CL and within first 4 in EPL, at least until they were still in the CL, that is.
Also, Pool last year were pretty bad in Europe - their worst under Rafa - although they did very well in EPL - their best EPL record under Rafa, I think - but all in all the team seemed to have a CL hangover and left the CL thru the back door early on (for me, reason #1 for their pretty good EPL ranking).

Above all, however, Arsenal plain and simple focused on CL and almost missed the train for this year's CL because of that. They did do great in Europe but it has to be noted that Wenger forgot about his flair-loaded football and after close to 10 years finally "changed" his entire approach to the team's tactics in Europe - they were much more defensive, much more patient, their game was more mature so to speak ... this however was not the Arsenal in EPL where they were still the good old Gunners of Wenger's dreams of open-space football, which with the young players on that squad was often an easy target for the opponent - hence their average not to say bad EPL season last year.

Chelski themselves had a pretty average CL last year too - I think their worst performance in the competition under the guidance of the special one (not sure about the stats, though).

So, all in all, it really depends on what was the form of those other teams - Pool, Arsenal, CHelski - when ManU got those good results vs them.

This year, both Pool and Chelski are performing very well in CL and EPL (this is true for Pool in the second half of the season). Arsenal were also good in the group stages but for some reason - too many injuries maybe - their season fell apart after the Christmass break in the CL. When they beat ManU, I thinkthey were still in their "good period" though.

As for why ManU went out of CL so early but did very well in EPL, I am not sure how they performed, but I think they picked up their form in the second part of the season and made up for their errors earlier in the EPL ... of course, they were already out of CL by that time ... however, again, I am not sure how much of a "proof' is their good record vs the other big teams in the EPL as all of those had a subpar season for their standards, especially in Europe (apart from Arsenal, who however were plain bad in EPL).

Told ya - too many variable and unknowns, too many IFs ... best is to keep it within the frame of the current season, me thinks, because that's what's relevant here

Originally Posted by icculus

couple paradigms in all sports:
1- never looked past your next opponent
2- anyone can beat anyone on a given day
3- experience counts a lot
4- always have faith in your team...

Love the last one there. So often we forget that little detail of the heart when we're chatting up stats and history.

and *le gasp* you forgot one:

5- the best haircut always wins.

Step-overs of doom? Fine. But I beleive Mr. C. Ronaldo will never match the coiffed genius of the greasy Italian hair.

My stand on this semi-final clash is a bit different. It may have something to do with the feeling of zen coming over me after working out some family problems this weekend. I'm hoping for a good performance, but I will not be too dissapointed with a loss. There isn't anything Milan can do against Man. Utd to make me want to rip my heart out...except go 10 down that is. I feel as if we've got nothing to lose because we've kinda seen the worst this season, especially the beginning and still we've made it thus far. Farther than many would have expected us to. I know our history, I know how we fight. All that's left now is to go out there and play some good football without losing our heads. Simple.

Okay, okay. Maybe not so simple.

Originally Posted by zlatanov

you do have a point steza, but referring to a dif season is a whole dif mix, I think. For instance, when ManU got those positive results, were they still playing in CL or were they able to concentrate exclusively on EPL and fight for 2nd spot? How about the other teams they beat ... were they still fighting in CL or did they have only EPL to worry about?
If you ask me, compoaring two dif season won't take us anywhere as there are two many variables and unknowns to take care of, although on paper it looks like a straightforward comparison.

I could give it a try though :

Pool under rafa seems to be focusing on CL mostly and the same could be said about Arsenal last year - all in all, both teams didn't have EPl title in mind once Chelski ran away in the points and all they cared about was CL and within first 4 in EPL, at least until they were still in the CL, that is.
Also, Pool last year were pretty bad in Europe - their worst under Rafa - although they did very well in EPL - their best EPL record under Rafa, I think - but all in all the team seemed to have a CL hangover and left the CL thru the back door early on (for me, reason #1 for their pretty good EPL ranking).

Above all, however, Arsenal plain and simple focused on CL and almost missed the train for this year's CL because of that. They did do great in Europe but it has to be noted that Wenger forgot about his flair-loaded football and after close to 10 years finally "changed" his entire approach to the team's tactics in Europe - they were much more defensive, much more patient, their game was more mature so to speak ... this however was not the Arsenal in EPL where they were still the good old Gunners of Wenger's dreams of open-space football, which with the young players on that squad was often an easy target for the opponent - hence their average not to say bad EPL season last year.

Chelski themselves had a pretty average CL last year too - I think their worst performance in the competition under the guidance of the special one (not sure about the stats, though).

So, all in all, it really depends on what was the form of those other teams - Pool, Arsenal, CHelski - when ManU got those good results vs them.

This year, both Pool and Chelski are performing very well in CL and EPL (this is true for Pool in the second half of the season). Arsenal were also good in the group stages but for some reason - too many injuries maybe - their season fell apart after the Christmass break in the CL. When they beat ManU, I thinkthey were still in their "good period" though.

As for why ManU went out of CL so early but did very well in EPL, I am not sure how they performed, but I think they picked up their form in the second part of the season and made up for their errors earlier in the EPL ... of course, they were already out of CL by that time ... however, again, I am not sure how much of a "proof' is their good record vs the other big teams in the EPL as all of those had a subpar season for their standards, especially in Europe (apart from Arsenal, who however were plain bad in EPL).

Told ya - too many variable and unknowns, too many IFs ... best is to keep it within the frame of the current season, me thinks, because that's what's relevant here

Zlatanov, I dont know ,why you have to explain to people, why this ,why that, Milan is perhaps the only team , who can beat anyone anywhere on anygiven date, whether in munich or manchester!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
We are Mila, and thats the point............

Originally Posted by sveto

Zlatanov, I dont know ,why you have to explain to people, why this ,why that, Milan is perhaps the only team , who can beat anyone anywhere on anygiven date, whether in munich or manchester!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
We are Mila, and thats the point............

esp it's difficult to convince people these days

I am very confident that we will beat Man U. Our team is hitting form, and even our defence looks like it knows what it's doing.

Forza Milan!

Originally Posted by Jeff

esp it's difficult to convince people these days

Originally Posted by Stezagud

true, but Drucurl is 100% Milan, he just doesnt have the insecurities of some who would rather pretend that Utd are made up of overrated chumps who somehow fluke their way into these tournaments

I genuinely wouldnt want to see it but if Ronaldo is firing on all cylinders on the night he is capable of tearing Paolo to shreds



You really havent seen Utd play much have you, he is renowned as the best in England at doing that, they were calling him the new Bobby Moore when he was only 17 years old because his anticipation was so good even at that age

I suggest you look up the stats on how many penalties Rio concedes and how many bookings he had in his career. To my knowledge he averages 1-2 yellows a year, which is astonishingly low for a central defender. The reason for that is of course his ability to read the game and tackle cleanly, not that you believe he can do that

Man U is always over-rated, there is no escaping from that. Their abilities and hype just doesn't match. Whether you want to admit it or not, that always been the case.

I haven't watch Man U play? you must be joking. I came from Singapore and you go and do a search about the football people watch here. There is only EPL on TV, no Serie A, no La Liga. What do you think? Papers are filled with EPL news, almost no news on Serie A and La liga.

I don't wish to discuss about ronaldo anymore. We will see during the match. I also don't wish to discuss about Rio. You obviously doesn't know about the word "skilful" dribblers, there are far and few between in EPL where most teams just like to play fast and furious and long ball is prevalent. He can tackle against lesser players but certainly not players like ronaldinho, kaka. We will never see eye to eye on this so no point discussing anymore. Just remember that EPL and UCL is a different game altogether and if you continue to use your EPL standards to judge players then be prepared to be suprised.

Im sure we can do it our way, again. Talk means nothing untill Paolo, Nesta, Gattuso and rest step on the field and colse down every bit of a field as usual. Last time it was Crespo, maybe Gila can do it this time

I don't think Man U is overrated, at least not this year. I believe that Man U is going to give Milan a hard time; but it almost never hurts that Milan is the underdog. In fact, Milan almost always played better as the underdog. Example: against Bayern, against Real (many years ago) etc...

As long as they don't lead like 3-0 or 4-1 in the first league, I'm happy and you know why lol

Originally Posted by Pireloke

I was never the "cheerleader" type before Istanbul but I had enough confidence in Milan to for example watch next Sunday's match vs. Messina with optimism of a good result, but the me "post Istanbul syndrome" is an eternal pessimist, I fear and picture all the worse possible case scenarios so I won't get hurt as much as that final night in Turkey, I almost felt my heart break in my chest, as if someone from my family had died... I have an Istanbul syndrome lol.

Wow! In this case Pireloke, I will apologise to you right now. Seriously... I was foolishly trying to chastise you for not being behind this team. With your explanation of "what has changed" for you after Instanbul, I now see where you are coming from. Your take on "zero expectation" of this team now makes sense in light of your trauma.
I have a similar yet slight different attitude than you have. I always hope for the best, but also with zero expectation. So if the case happens that we lose, I'm not disappointed and also feel we can and will do better the next time around. If not, perhaps the next time around. Those times which we do hit the summit above the skies, I hold it dearly and savor the moment with the full expectation that perhaps our stay there might not be long. I try to enjoy the low points as well as the high points of this team's story. Remember that Milan is not only a football club, but also a great STORY that much is yet to be read, seen, or told. Who knows what will happen in the next chapter? Just know this... the STORY goes on and a great one it is.

FORZA MILAN!

Told ya - too many variable and unknowns, too many IFs ... best is to keep it within the frame of the current season, me thinks, because that's what's relevant here

True, i dont like comparing different seasons because the players and motivations are different, all i will say is that Utds best performances vs the other big sides last year came while we were still in the CL so that factor at least wasnt an issue

It is also true that the big Prem performances contain different motivations, as you say there are so many variables. As a gambler looking at the Bayern - Milan game i must admit i paid zero attention to performances against big domestic rivals because it just didnt seem worth attempting to make sense of each result in its particular context. 90% of my thinking came from the opposing XI's, and how they will attempt to play tactically.

Originally Posted by sveto

Milan is perhaps the only team , who can beat anyone anywhere on anygiven date, whether in munich or manchester!

i think most teams can beat anyone, anywhere on their day.

To hwmook and anyone else who follows his line of thought. You are mistaken if you think i'm saying Ferdinand is overall a better defender than Maldini. I tried to make this clear but obviously i failed. My point, which i will try to get across for a third time ( ) is that in this season Maldini isn't as consistent and lacks the pace of previous seasons because of injuries. So on that basis and given that Ferdinand is having a reasonably good season, you'd have to say that they are on a similar level. We're not comparing the Maldini of old or the Maldini all Milan fans see in their hearts, just what has been shown this season.

Again i shall go back to my car analogy. If i had a prestige car that only works properly/well 50% of the time and someone else had an average family car that works well 90% of the time, you'd say in terms of effectiveness that both cars were on a similar level, wouldn't you?