Winter Mercato

Originally Posted by Kaka--7thUCL

I think a real smart team when it comes to transfers is Milan(when they make one!) and inter.

You gotta be kidding me ? It took them almost 1 billion spent on transfers and a relegation of Juventus for them to win something.


I was thinking about all this over-paying of youngsters and how much impossible is to make a perfect prediction and know if you are over-paying or you're not.

Just look at Ibrahimovic. Juve bought him for 19m euro. Just like Sneijder, Ibra came from Ajax and he was 23. He didn't have great goalscoring record (never scored more than 13 goals in 1 season, in Dutch league) , he never had big matches behind him.
At the time everybody thought Juve is seriously overpaying. After the first season it looked like Juve did spent the money wise. After his second season, those 19m again seemed like serious overpaying. When Juve was forced to sell him, i remember that people here objected a lot when they heard Milan wants to give more than 20m for Zlatan. After Inter payed 24m, people (including myself, i admit, even though i am huge fan of Zlatan) were laughing and again saying how Inter over-payed.
And now ? Did Juve overpay when we bought him for 19m euro ?

Then goes Henry. I'm not sure but i think he came to Juve on bosman rule. He was only 22 but already proven with a WC and EC won.
Then Juve sells him for 15m euro to Arsenal.
At the time when Arsenal bought him....did they overpay ? They payed 15m for a player who seriously failed his first test in a great club and great league.

Now Manchester Utd. They payed 18m euro for 18yo Cristiano Ronaldo. They payed 45m euro for 19yo Wayne Rooney and now they payed 21m euro for 20yo Nani.
Lets just imagine that we don't know how good Rooney and CR7 turned out to be.
Without that knowledge, do you think these two weren't worthy of the money ManU payed ?
And now, do you guys think ManU overpayed for Nani and he'll never live up to the price tag and the expectations ?

I have many more examples but this three will do. My point is that we make judgments very easily while in reality we're helpless to predict with a confidence how good will they turn out to be.
That's why scouts exists. They know a lot more about these youngsters than we do. If the scouts who followed Robinho thought that he'll be good and worthy to pay 22m then they had good reason for that.
But it's always a risk. Like i said, sometimes you get Kaka sometimes Legrottagllie.

I have to be with Zlat on this one. As much as I think Sneijder is a top player----27M for him at this time and given his record is simply ludricous. Of course, whether he justifies the price tag or no, time will tell. But at the present time, that's a crazy price to pay for him. Secondly, we also have to see where he will play on the team. Where is Real going to play him? They have Guti, Diarra, Robinho, Baptista, De la Red, Gago, Higuain, and possibly Robben-----WHERE WILL THEY PLAY SNEIJDER? Why would you spend 27M on someone and not have space in your squad for them? Doesnt make any sense to me at all. This is probably why in my opinion, Real Madrid are nothing more than a bunch of clowns buying a bunch of so-called stars and changing managers and presidents every few years and always looking back at the "black and white" days when they won everything because of a lack of competition.

If you ask me, Sneijder for Milan at this time is useless. There would be no room for him in our midfield unless we push Gorky to the stands. He would only be worth spending that sort of money if: he was brought in as a DIRECT replacemnt for Seedorf, and he has evolved from a prospect to a difference maker---hence he would be an adequate replacement for Clarence. This is why Milan are happy to pay 40, 50, 60 M for Etoo or Ronaldinho---because they can come in and make a difference and improve our squad. But that sort of money for Sneider---no way.

Originally Posted by rt9

I have to be with Zlat on this one. As much as I think Sneijder is a top player----27M for him at this time and given his record is simply ludricous. Of course, whether he justifies the price tag or no, time will tell. But at the present time, that's a crazy price to pay for him. Secondly, we also have to see where he will play on the team. Where is Real going to play him? They have Guti, Diarra, Robinho, Baptista, De la Red, Gago, Higuain, and possibly Robben-----WHERE WILL THEY PLAY SNEIJDER? Why would you spend 27M on someone and not have space in your squad for them? Doesnt make any sense to me at all. This is probably why in my opinion, Real Madrid are nothing more than a bunch of clowns buying a bunch of so-called stars and changing managers and presidents every few years and always looking back at the "black and white" days when they won everything because of a lack of competition.

If you ask me, Sneijder for Milan at this time is useless. There would be no room for him in our midfield unless we push Gorky to the stands. He would only be worth spending that sort of money if: he was brought in as a DIRECT replacemnt for Seedorf, and he has evolved from a prospect to a difference maker---hence he would be an adequate replacement for Clarence. This is why Milan are happy to pay 40, 50, 60 M for Etoo or Ronaldinho---because they can come in and make a difference and improve our squad. But that sort of money for Sneider---no way.

First of all Real have won TWO CL titles recently. They are NOT a bunch of clowns that just go on buying etc etc......you really should have more respect to your opponents than that.

Secondly as much as I don't rate Sneijder that much.....if you think that Gorcuff is better than him then you must be still on your CL hangover

Sneijder is EXACTLY what we need in midfield...1) as backup to Seedorf who will eventually not be quarter the player he is next two seasons or so and to 2)Get the most out of our existing Clarence, who seems to need that extra edge to motivate him

Given Pirlo and Ambro's propensity to get injured for long spells and Brocchi's relative lack of quality I'd say that I could surely play him in red and black...

Originally Posted by Tony29.

You gotta be kidding me ? It took them almost 1 billion spent on transfers and a relegation of Juventus for them to win something.


I was thinking about all this over-paying of youngsters and how much impossible is to make a perfect prediction and know if you are over-paying or you're not.

Just look at Ibrahimovic. Juve bought him for 19m euro. Just like Sneijder, Ibra came from Ajax and he was 23. He didn't have great goalscoring record (never scored more than 13 goals in 1 season, in Dutch league) , he never had big matches behind him.
At the time everybody thought Juve is seriously overpaying. After the first season it looked like Juve did spent the money wise. After his second season, those 19m again seemed like serious overpaying. When Juve was forced to sell him, i remember that people here objected a lot when they heard Milan wants to give more than 20m for Zlatan. After Inter payed 24m, people (including myself, i admit, even though i am huge fan of Zlatan) were laughing and again saying how Inter over-payed.
And now ? Did Juve overpay when we bought him for 19m euro ?

just for the record, not that it makes much of a dif, I do believe that Juve bought Ibra for 15-16 mil, not 19.
And yes, before he came to Juve, he did have big games behind him ... he was always a player to show his quality in big games, or at least most of them, and even vs Milan in CL ... that was because he had and has character, good or bad, mercenary or not, Ibra does have character and that's what differentiates winners from loosers in the end of the day - not talent, not ability but character.

That's exactly what carlo said about Kaka when he was speaking about Pato and Gourcuff and how character was the most imprtnat thing in a young talent taking that extra step from being just a talent to becoming a great player, a difference maker ... it was Kaka's character of a winner that helped him - at the age of 21 and completely new to European football - nail a CL-winning playmaker like Rui Costa on Milan's bench.

That's what Moggi saw in Ibra - the character, not just the ability and talent ... which leads me to my other argument - let's not forget who made the decision to get ibra and pay 15/16 mils (or let's make it 19) for him (and not Sneijder) - was it Moggi and Co (one of the shrudest managements in football) or was it the clown-duo of Calderon and Mijatovic, who after 200 mil spent, and counting, are yet to conjure up a transfer that isn't gonna be a total bust, or close to it ... actually, it looks like the only "transfer" they made that didn't fail was Capello's (and RvN's, who capello asked to be brought to Madrid) ... and we all know the end of that love story

Sneijder, unlike Ibra, I see as a "colorless" player, one who lacks character of a winner, one who doesn't have what a player who makes a difference has, one who isn't a leader but prefers to follow when it matters most.
Maybe he would change later in his career but I'd think that if he'd ever have it in him, he'd have shown it by now.

Then goes Henry. I'm not sure but i think he came to Juve on bosman rule. He was only 22 but already proven with a WC and EC won.
Then Juve sells him for 15m euro to Arsenal.
At the time when Arsenal bought him....did they overpay ? They payed 15m for a player who seriously failed his first test in a great club and great league.

that was the whole point of my argument - Sneijder has been around for 5 years now and all he's been (and would have remained if not for Calderon the talent seeker) for all these years is "a player of interest" to the big european clubs and that's about it ... always second, never at the top.
The guy is 23 yo already ... he is no longer a promising player ... by this age, most players have already formed themselves as players, they have been established already ... of course in time they will get better with experience but most of the "juice" should already be on show by the age of 23.

As for Henry, I believe Juve paid good money for him - pretty much the same they got from Arsenal - but you said it yourself - by the age of 22 he was already proven or at least have accomplished more than Sneijder has.

And who paid those 15 mil for a player who failed his first test - his coach from his early years in Monaco, who was well aware of Henry's talent and potential to become a top player (and him being an excellent coach must have told him that Henry being used in a dif position and not his best also contributed to his failure at Juve).

Curiously, Weneger was one of many coaches of big european clubs who at some point were interested in Sneijder ... don't remember him making move for him though even when Sneijder could be bought for 10 mil and probably even less

Now Manchester Utd. They payed 18m euro for 18yo Cristiano Ronaldo. They payed 45m euro for 19yo Wayne Rooney and now they payed 21m euro for 20yo Nani.
Lets just imagine that we don't know how good Rooney and CR7 turned out to be.
Without that knowledge, do you think these two weren't worthy of the money ManU payed ?
And now, do you guys think ManU overpayed for Nani and he'll never live up to the price tag and the expectations ?

there is one main difference between Sneijder's case and those guys you mentioned above (although I would take the Boxer-look-alike out of it cause we all know how crazy EPL teams go when the odd English talent appears from somewhere - common sense business hardly has anything to do with those transactions ... plus, Rooney was already proven in EPL and the English NT when ManU took the plunge for him).

Anyways, the difference is that talents like Nani and CR needed to be scouted for probably a year, maybe less, before they convinced SAF that they are worth the investment ... In Sneijder's case, this scouting took 5 years and no club decided to make a move eventhough his price was 10-12 for some time ... again, maybe even he would still be at Ajax if it wasn't for Real M to come along.

I have many more examples but this three will do. My point is that we make judgments very easily while in reality we're helpless to predict with a confidence how good will they turn out to be.
That's why scouts exists. They know a lot more about these youngsters than we do. If the scouts who followed Robinho thought that he'll be good and worthy to pay 22m then they had good reason for that.
But it's always a risk. Like i said, sometimes you get Kaka sometimes Legrottagllie.

true, but then again, it really depends on who those scouts are and what their track record is - for a millionth time, why it took 5 years for a big European club to finally "steal" Sneijder from Ajax after he's been in the shop window for such a long time for the very best scouts and coaches in Europe to see what he's capable of.

Originally Posted by drucurl

First of all Real have won TWO CL titles recently. They are NOT a bunch of clowns that just go on buying etc etc......you really should have more respect to your opponents than that.

I am sure he ment that towards the "current" Real M side - team and management alike ... we shoudln't forget that Real M is not like Milan where a management can last deceades and create a dynasty ... at Real M, the menegement changes often i.e., while the trophies remain, the club's identity/face changes often ... and the current one are a bunch of clowns and nothing more and they have worked hard to prove it to everyone.

Secondly as much as I don't rate Sneijder that much.....if you think that Gorcuff is better than him then you must be still on your CL hangover

Gourcuff has more potential than Sneijder cause Gorky is still 20-21 yo, had very limited chances last season, and can still realise that potential and turn himself into a great player ... Sneijder is 23 yo already and by now he should have given signs whether he would be just a good player or a great one.
If Gorky plays the same way when he is 23 yo, then I would have my doubts about him too but until then he can still catch the train ... Sneijder's I am affraid has already left the station.

Sneijder is EXACTLY what we need in midfield...1) as backup to Seedorf who will eventually not be quarter the player he is next two seasons or so and to 2)Get the most out of our existing Clarence, who seems to need that extra edge to motivate him

Given Pirlo and Ambro's propensity to get injured for long spells and Brocchi's relative lack of quality I'd say that I could surely play him in red and black...

no, Sneijder is the exactly what YOU think we need in midfield ... obviously, Carlo and the likes have had their doubts

Originally Posted by drucurl

First of all Real have won TWO CL titles recently. They are NOT a bunch of clowns that just go on buying etc etc......you really should have more respect to your opponents than that.

Secondly as much as I don't rate Sneijder that much.....if you think that Gorcuff is better than him then you must be still on your CL hangover

Sneijder is EXACTLY what we need in midfield...1) as backup to Seedorf who will eventually not be quarter the player he is next two seasons or so and to 2)Get the most out of our existing Clarence, who seems to need that extra edge to motivate him

Given Pirlo and Ambro's propensity to get injured for long spells and Brocchi's relative lack of quality I'd say that I could surely play him in red and black...

1) Respect for Real? I have no respect for a side that has absolutely no class. Look at the way they tried to unsettle Kaka. For a club of their stature, resorting to such low means is nothing short of shameful. They have won 2 CL titles recently---so what? Have they done much in Europe since? We have also won 2 CL titles recently and many more over the last 20 years---yet we dont go around boasting that we are the best side in the world. We are confident and secure enough in ourselves and we let results on the pitch do the talking. We dont boast. If you take offense that I call Calderon/Mijatovic a bunch of clowns, then I dont know what to say. IMO they more than justify that based on their actions and lack of professionalism. They seem to think that they are a class above everyone else even though none of the hype is justified on the football pitch. ANd yes, Real have been buying buying and buying over the last five seasons. Have a look yourself and see how much they have spent or overspent. And then see what they have accomplished on the pitch.

2) As for Sneijder, I agree with you that he would be a good backup for Seedorf. But that was exactly my point. You dont spend 27M on a backup!! If you spend that kind of money, then he better have qualities that are good enough to replace Seedorf---at this point, I am not convinced he can do it, and spending that much money for a replacment does not make sense. As for Gourcuff, what do you propose we do with him? Bench him, sell him or give him a chance? He did not have enough chances last year and buying a player like Sneijder will limit his chances further. I feel we should give him a proper chance and then see whether he is a hit or a miss. From what Ive seen of him so far, all he needs are some consistent starts and he will be on fire.

3) Given Pirlo and Ambro's injury worries, I'd certainly make a serious bid for Emerson---who can fill both voids, is experienced in serie a, will not cost much, and is more or less a guarantee, rather than a high cost risk.

Tony its true how numbers say alot but they dont say everything. Your numbers tell you Sneijder had a good season, but Gila's numbers at Milan haven't been bad either, but yet anyone who ain't blind could see how hopeless he can get sometimes..

He might turn out to be a good buy but even if he did, im still happy it wasn't us who took the gamble on him. I would much rather a 25-30 yr old established midfielder that would not have problems adjusting within the group. Baptista, Lincoln (schalke), Diego so many good names out there that are way cheaper and could be bets that give better odds.

Originally Posted by zlatanov

Lot's of people we'll be jumping off the Sneijder train in several months time and seats on that one will be as cheap and available as Robinho's, Gago's, Higuain's and by the look of things, Robben's too ... did I miss someone else?

One thing to note here... u cant really expect young talents like robinho will develop in madrid right? For the last 2 years they were sacking the coach regularly, every1 of them experimenting with his own tactics using his own players, team was rebuild over and over again, the administration clearly doesnt know what they are doing, buying players (many good or promising ones) just for sake of buying, not needing. The core of the team was lazy spoiled metro party animals... Not really an environment where young players can settle and start develop?

the point is - robinho, gago, higuain and others would probably prove much more if they joined other clubs in spain. Heck, i would even say robinho in barca would be a huge hit.

Drucurllllllllllllllllll

http://www.igre.co.ba/ronaldo.asp

enjoy this game!!

Tutte le notizie di oggi , my dear Milan fans :

1. Zaragoza has the rights for Collocini. They officially bought him from Deportivo for 10m euro.

2. After all their attempts to bring Sneijder, Kallstrom and Lucho Gonzalez failed, Valencia is now trying to get van der Vaart. According to Dutch newspapers " De Telegraaf" , Valencia is offering 14m euro for Hamburgs playmaker.

3. Today or tomorrow Antonio Cassano will officially be Sampdoria player. If things go well on today's meeting in Madrid between Samp's officials and Real Madrid then it's expected Cassano to be officially presented to Samp fans tomorrow.

4. Rooney will be out for 2 months but ManU won't be looking for a new attacker because they expect Tevez to take over Rooney's role. But there are new problems with Tevez because Boca is asking for 5m euro for the transfer of Tevez from West Ham to ManU

5. Trofeo TIM will be opened with Juve-Inter. In the second match Milan will play against the loser of the first match and in the third match Milan will play vs the winner of the first match. Matches last only 45 minutes. Trofeo TIM will be played tomorrow in Milano.

6. Fiorentina bought 21yo attacker from Atalanta, the Argentine Osvaldo who played for Lecce in last season.

7. Dany Alves won't play against AEK in CL on Wednesday. It's a clear sign that Sevilla will sell him. And there is a real war going between Chelsea and Real Madrid for the Brazilian RB. For now Chelsea has the advantage because they offered 35m euro and it's reported that their offer is higher than what Real offered.
In the meantime Sevilla is looking for a new RB and they are seriously interested in Nelson from Benfika who was close to Milan last winter. Milan planned to get Nelson in case they wouldn't have bought Oddo.

8. According to Gazzetta , Laporta said this to Berlusconi : "This year there's no chance to sell Dinho, but if we plan to sell him from next year then Milan will have the first option "
- how come only Gazzetta comes with such interesting news about Dinho ?

9. According to Corriere dello sport, Milan is still seriously interested to buy another attacker and they are after Di Natale and/or Diego Millito.

10. Ranieri today said that he found the 2 CD's that will lead Juve's defense - Andrade and super talent Criscito.
But still, Corriere claims Juve is pushing to get another defender. The choice is between Ivanovic (wanted also by ManU) and Zapata.
Boumsong received an offer from Lyon and Juve together with Boumsong are yet to decide if they will let him go to France or he'll stay in Torino.

11. Fiore was complaining that Valencia's coach isn't even talking to him anymore and that he's surely leaving Spain. Atalanta, Genoa and Napoli will try to secure the ex-Italy NT midfielder.
Inter is interested in Sissoko from Toulouse (Corriere dello sport)

12. Fabio Capello thinks that Inter can win the double this year. According to Capello Inters greatest rivals are Milan for the scudetto and Barcelona in CL. Capello thinks that Giuly is the best purchase by the Italian teams this summer.

13. Bronzetti is in Madrid and will try to get Emerson to Milan. The offer is 4m euro.

14. According to Gazzetta, Valencia offered 15m euro for Adriano but Inter rejected the offer as not realistic. Gazzetta also claims that Inter's mercato isn't finished and Moratti is still trying to get at least one of Nasri, Riquelme, Deco or Julio Baptista.

Originally Posted by Tony29.

12. Fabio Capello thinks that Inter can win the double this year. According to Capello Inters greatest rivals are Milan for the scudetto and Barcelona in CL. Capello thinks that Giuly is the best purchase by the Italian teams this summer.

Im loving every minute of this whole 'Inter will win every single trophy which is available out there including the Liga and the EPL this season' When realistically speaking they might just get the Coppa.

Originally Posted by drucurl

First of all Real have won TWO CL titles recently. They are NOT a bunch of clowns that just go on buying etc etc......you really should have more respect to your opponents than that.

S\

Real are clowns, wanna-be-thugs...here's their latest disrespect towards another club

http://edition.cnn.com/2007/SPORT/fo...eut/index.html

http://www.goal.com/en-US/Articolo.a...enutoId=381284

they gave Ajax a 3-hour "ultimatum"...then they come back and offer 3 more mil, so in the end real ends up paying more + apologizing to Ajax

And then they get voted as the team of the century?

Tony29

Gazzetta quoted Marca on that piece of news about Dinho.

My Spanish friends say that Marca is a reputable paper in Spain, even if pro-Madrid.

I wonder why everybody calls Mijatovic - Pedrag when his name is Predrag. But absolutely every English site calls him Pedrag

Predrag means - too dear, the dearest
Pedrag means...nothing