The devastation that Katrina left

Originally Posted by Nadir

Again, my point was that if you want to discuss politics, do it in a political forum. want to discuss soccer and milan? do it here. the moment this place has a political sub forum, u will see tensions rise and spill over into the soccer topics and people will start leaving in droves.

if we have a political sub-forum, let's start one for religious discussion as well.

Again thanks for putting your opinion into this matter. There is some things that I have disagreement with and it isnt with your opinion in particular.
If we are to only talk about football, in all fairness we should keep in mind that we do have a very busy forum discussing a wide range of topics. I dont want them to close down. Yet it would appear to be inconsistent to keep those open as it does not pertain to football either.
If it is a matter of controversy, I would counterpoint that there is heated disagreement all the time in all forums including those pertaining to football matters. I would hope the you'd agree with me on this point.
I have put something down and layed it all on the table by saying if we want a football forum, then let's be purists about it and ONLY talk football. I brought forward this point to show what I think we'd be risking if they actually do take this point. I dont want them to... I'm only trying to get people to understand what they are asking for. Do they want this to be a football only forum??? If that's the case, then lets be fair and consistent about this.

Originally Posted by Nadir

As far as closing threads go, perhaps leaving heated up threads open is a good idea so that all the heat is confined to that one thread instead of it spilling over

I agree. I find it that by keeping the thread open, we allow people to respond and in many cases the dissenting parties either make up and/or respectfully agree to disagree. When a thread is closed it gives zero chance for that and the sentiment becomes bitter.
You and me agree on things and obviously disagree on many points as well. I dont think that has stopped us one bit by having some kind of mutual respect for each other here in MM. Coincidentally we joined MM the same friggin day sometime May in 1999. So we are old time veterans here. We seen members come and go for whatever reason. I think we'll both get some compromise on this. It seems we are at a temporary impasse.

Thanks again Nadir for discussing it in the open with me.

Originally Posted by Kui

I just want people to have the ability to express and exchange ideas on a number of topics besides football. Including things we disagree with. We do this already. Yet there seems to be an exception or double standard when it comes to only some things or really only one thing discussed here. As if only ONE topic draws heated disagreement. This I dont understand and I am yet to hear anything of an answer from the mods or the administrators on this matter. I'll remain patient.
Thanks again Staci!

The haughty tone at the end of your post caught me off guard. I didn't realize any sort of answer beyond what was already posted was needed or called for. If the demand is actually there, if people feel this forum sucks totally and just won't be complete without letting people discuss politics then I guess I am the one who needs to hear THAT answer. I happen to feel we're pretty lenient in the Flamers forum as far as what gets posted and discussed, and anything else non-football I see plenty of in the Members Lounge. Please explain the exception/double standard you're referring to so it can actually be discussed.

Originally Posted by Kui

I'm not asking for a whole forum to talk about politics. I'm saying if I want to talk about whatever I want to, I should be able to do it without people caring what the heck I talk about.

Unfortunately I have to put on my hat of owner of MM and one of the administrators for a short time. We DO have to care about what people are talking about; that lesson has been driven home to me quite a few times. We are a global community and we have to keep that in mind. I won't stand for these forums becoming a free-for-all where one faith/race/political faction is free to take potshots at everyone else. Nor do I want MM to be a place where people of a certain country, faith, race, or any other defining human trait or belief feels in the least bit uncomfortable. I've lived thru all of that here and elsewhere, and situations like that were no part of the original and founding philosophy of the site or the forums.

I also happen to think we are and have been lenient enough with what gets posted and discussed in Flamers to consider it our "open mike" for anyone who needs it. Now that I have a whole new "second job" to deal with at school, I'm here even less than before, but this whole gripe sessions seems to me to have sprung up b/c Rezag decided to close the VE Day topic in Flamers. Tempers were flaring in the early days of a disaster, political trash was being slung while people were awaiting help and rescue. Well, you know what? Rezag made an executive decision and sometimes that has to happen. IF instead you would like for the topic to be re-opened to discuss the situation NOW, perhaps asking if that could be done would be in order, instead of getting on a soapbox about double standards and politically charged topics!

kui, rae, the issue is not "having many threads to discuss various topics". the issue is "having threads that would be considered controversial and cause disunity in a forum meant to unite us over the lover of Milan and soccer."

I mean, honestly picture posting, talking about songs or what not DOES NOT CAUSE animosity among members, but talking about religion and/or politics would. I am not sure why you guys don't see that. There are POLITICAL FORUMS that you can join if you are so interested in talking about politics. By all means, get a membership there!

and rae, i was not contradicting myself, i was just saying that on the other hand, if there was a thread that was already heated up, might as well have left it open so tensions can remain in THAT thread. I wasn't advocating opening a political sub-forum.

Anyway, again, I am done here. If Kui and Rae want to discuss politics you guys can either
a) call each other on the phone
b) MSN is a wonderful thing lol
c) join a political forum

there are more important matters to talk about here in this forum

Milan - Siena for instance

Again thank you both Nadir and Debs for your response. What I need to know again with undoubtful clarification is if: I am no longer able to talk about a particular subject in this forum that I have interest in with the same degree of fairness you give to other equally offensive topics??? You see this is what I'm saying about a double standard. You guys are basing this it seems and complaints recieved by other members. As if it is only I say again ONLY politics that turn heated up. Come on friends! You would have me to believe this??? Furthermore I think people should learn to disengage in topics that they have no interest or find offensive. I'm able to do this. Now I'm saying that if that cant be accorded to one member, than how does this forum gurantee this for all members??? I dont like a bunch of topics here myself. Should I take the same path and start asking the admin to close this topic down on the same excuse you folks are throwing at me???
BTW. You guys have yet to close some thread where people didnt give a fvck about my feelings back in Sept/Oct 2001. You have yet to see me ask for that thread to close down. Why??? Because I have not b!tched and moaned about my feelings being hurt. This among many is what I mean by double standard. If we are gonna do it this way... I'm all game for it. All I ask is for consistency. I got people telling me this is ONLY a football forum yet my eyes must be seeing something different from you all because I see more than that in the members lounge and flamers paradise. Is this a FOOTBALL ONLY forum or is it NOT??? Kindly dont skirt the issue here as it is starting to get me irritated. Just a bit of course.
It is also more so true that it isnt really the topic that starts the flare up in a thread but the trite remarks people say with no maturity whatsoever. Concentrate on that for a moment in the "football" threads where you have members post saying "Vieri f-off and die" before you guys impress upon me about bad posts. Like I said before if I'm being too much trouble Debs, then ask me to leave MM. Simple as that. That would definitely gurantee a more tranquil forum
Now I had PM Rezag with the understanding why my post got closed down. I seem to remember it was not due on my behalf but on the account of two other members duking it out. Hmmmmmm???? I wonder who that could have been? Nonetheless I'm over and done with that thread already. Again you need to explain this to me better than "oh people are moaning and groaning about a topic".

Your response please in Kind.

Originally Posted by Debs

IF instead you would like for the topic to be re-opened to discuss the situation NOW, perhaps asking if that could be done would be in order, instead of getting on a soapbox about double standards and politically charged topics!

Yes we want it would be re-opened NOW. And I do not want to be an advocate of forum of politics because I am sick of your intolerance and unilateral point of view, so I quit.

Originally Posted by rae

Yes we want it would be re-opened NOW. And I do not want to be an advocate of forum of politics because I am sick of your intolerance and unilateral point of view, so I quit.

Easy there Rae now. We gotta be nice a little bit. Debs is reasonable. We can get this if we keep a temperate head. And I wish you not to quit.

Originally Posted by Kui

Thanks Staci for seeing my point. Again though... I'm not asking for a political forum. If there is a demand or not is hardly the point either. I just want people to have the ability to express and exchange ideas on a number of topics besides football. Including things we disagree with. We do this already. Yet there seems to be an exception or double standard when it comes to only some things or really only one thing discussed here. As if only ONE topic draws heated disagreement. This I dont understand and I am yet to hear anything of an answer from the mods or the administrators on this matter. I'll remain patient.
Thanks again Staci!

Kui wouldn't this kind of topic be better suited for a topic specific forum ? I would hope that would then alleviate all of the controversy this has caused. Then those who chose to not partake are not exposed to issues that they do not wish to discuss. That seems to be a simple solution to an issue that has been completly blown out of proportion. I respect your tenacity on this issue.

Originally Posted by Kui

Easy there Rae now. We gotta be nice a little bit. Debs is reasonable. We can get this if we keep a temperate head. And I wish you not to quit.

Today I am very tired... so I was stunned whan I saw the same arguments in their talk which were diflected by us earlier, so it is no use to continue disscussion if one of the sides do not have enough new arguments and use old one's. It is ludicrous.

Do not know how it sounds in english correctly but I try to rephrase it - they are not aware what they are doing. Let them go and stay away of them because it will be benefit to you. God bless you.

Intolerance is in highest level so I have no powers to overcome their mides hence I quit.

Thanks Staci for your advice. I know what you are saying would alleviate all the trouble. Yet I'm certain that the Mods/Admins are not in favor of wanting a special forum for me as it would be unfair that I get my own little kingdom.
For me it is a small matter of principle now. I still am not sure if they want me to cease from any topic that I would particularly like to discuss. I havent been given a clear cut yes or no to the matter and am trying to work it out in reasonable fashion with all those involved including the ones who may disagree with my postings.
I disagree with a lot of stuff and find that it isnt only my topics that gets heated and confrontational. When they can explain this to me with my unwaivered satisfaction and or straight just tell me to stop, then we'll see what action I take next.
I'd hate for them to do this. Say if I do continue to post my thoughts and ideas??? I really dont mind if they close my threads down. Sadly that would prevent others from sharing their ideas/disagreements. Now if they erase my postings all together, than that is a bit more serious and unfortunately my time here will end.
You know I was taught to take and give as much. I can handle things I dont like in this forum and cant fathom why some cant or wont do the same. I'm able to ignore so many threads by just not going into them and reading it and am abit disappointed that some see it differently and not give me the same consideration. I'm up for the challenge and will most definitely come to a reckoning on this matter. Hopefully they at least meet me half way on this.

Let's close this thread

You won't like the beginning of this post but I need to let it out! If you want irritated, you'll get irritated! Who's bitching and moaning about something now? Who's keeping a damned score card so real or imagined offenses can be thrown out a year and more after some offense is taken? You know what? If you think it's so easy to run a forum consisting of members in countries spanning the globe who carry opinions as widely varied as we see even in this little forum, then please, step right up and pay for the domain and the hosting! I honestly cannot believe you'd bring up the matter of some topic from 2001 NOT being closed, but FYI it was around that time that we did decide on the no politics stance.

Clarification: We have been allowing political talk in Flamers. That forum is very loosely moderated for the purpose of giving people a place to vent or to rant. However, if someone either raises an objection to something being said (I don't recall receiving complaints about anything in Flamers) OR if a mod or an admin thinks "gee this has the potential to really tear this place apart and bring about alot of animosity" then yes, stuff gets closed. You want to call us to task on decisions like that? Then I'd like to ask you one favor--please do so with out coming off all high and mighty and self-righteous. At least speaking for myself, I do respond alot better to a polite approach rather than the soapbox approach. Members Lounge was brought about b/c people ASKED for a place to get to know each other away from soccer.

I would never ask you to leave, Kui, so enough of the eye rolling. What I would ask, since you've been here nearly as long as I have, is that you at least try to understand what it's like from this side of the desk, which is where I've been essentially since the very beginning. I know why these forums were created and I still adhere to the philosophy--a place where al are welcome to post and none will feel attacked or uncomfortable. This is a soccer forum where the members have become a tight-knit communitythat's not unlike a family and I feel like a parent. If even one person complains I feel like I'm responsible, so yes, you're complaining is putting me between a rock and a hard place. I've been thru total hell for this place a few times, and I don't happen to enjoy the added stress and tension, and I don't happen to like seeing members of my family being put on the spot b/c of discussions that might be happening. If you don't like the way I do things, or the way all of us mods and admins are doing things, then OK, let's start a discussion about it.

So I'll open the discussion: does MM need a political forum? My opinion is no, b/c we're so lenient in Flamers.

To be honest I am not sure what to post here. About the thread closed down and other issues you guys keep mentioning.. I can guarantee you 100% things WILL eventually spill outside a given thread the more a thread is allowed to go on (I have seen it on numerous forums and on MM in the past.) and as an admin I have and will have top do my best to prevent that. Now if the VE thread is a good example of that is not the point because it could have become a good example if it wasn't already.

Want an example of an attitude remaining even long after an incident? Can you all see the reaction when a Fenerbahce fan signs up here? how many of you automatically assume he is gonna flood? and thats not even political...my point is... disagreements or attitudes towards another remain as a result of an earlier thread (especially if allowed to linger by not closing before it gets worse)

Originally Posted by rae

Yes we want it would be re-opened NOW. And I do not want to be an advocate of forum of politics because I am sick of your intolerance and unilateral point of view, so I quit.

The topic will be re-opened. Thank you for your kind words and your own tolerance. There's no need for you to quit.

Wait a bit and take it easy Debs. I think you folks are taking me way out of context. I'm asking for consistency and I am not doing it standing from a soap box. You're not the only one frustrated as I am too. I'm asking for answers.
Am I able to continue disussing what ever I want to in the Flamers Paradise? Yes??? No???
People are going to disagree with lots of things here besides my own ideas. I'm not asking for a a special forum nor have I ever done this.
And no I didnt say your job is easy either. Why can people not simply ignore my posts if they are not interested in this??? You guys are moderators and I'm asking you for moderation... balance, and some fairness. If you guys are basing it on the account of other people's complaints, if it were me (and it is) I'd stay away from a particular topic Debs. Are we not understanding each other on this???

Your response in Kind. Kindly now Debs.

the funny thing is, people are losing their tempers on an argument about TALKING about politics. Imagine if we actually start talking about politics in here?

btw, does it mean if you threaten to leave with an ultimatum, you will get your way? hmm..

I WANT THIS PLACE TO BE CALLED NADIRMANIA or I QUIT!!! (rae you big baby lol)