All posts re: the Italian Football Scandal (Moggipoli)

Originally Posted by Maltese Charlie

1.The proof is in the "suppose fixed matches themselves. The most logic thing is to analise the matches and see if there is a suspect or not.

2.Don't you see it contradictorial the fact that Milan were so Intelligent in game fixing that they were not caught, but in the same time were so stupid that they loose the championship

3. with a team which shows the best football in both domestic and international leagues.

1. Maybe those matches were being analised and that explains the charges against Galliani and Meani. I doubt you remember everything that happened on Milan-Chievo match. Are you sure there weren't situations when the linesman (Meani's choice linesman, i mean) called offside for Chievo, and there actually wasn't offside ???
If you do remember everything that happened on that match, then i'm sorry for saying all this, and i'll believe you. But if you don't, then i prefer to believe the guys who found this match suspicious, and are accussing Galliani and Meani right now !

2. Oh yes, one Milan employee was caught asking for refs in Chievo and Fiorentina matches...and got them at the end.
Clubs are responsible for everything that is done for them by their employees.
And again...so what if Milan lost the championship at the end ?it means they weren't fixing, or it means that Juve was fixing more than Milan, or they fixed equal amount of matches but Juve won more non fixed matches ?
To sum up : Maybe versus Juve, Milan was a victim, but versus all the others...hmmmm, i don't see Inter in 4 clubs mentioned yesterday ! I believe Inter, Lecce, Palermo or Messina fans won't concider you as victims, but as fixers !
And get used to this. When Juve will fall in Serie B, Milan will become the next Juve. The evil fixers helped by the refs !
There will have to be an explanation for Inter's and Roma's failures...and it will be Milan and Berlusconi...as Moggi and Juve were previously !


3. You forgot to add : Of all time in football history !
This was too much biased so it doesn't deserve an answer for me !

Originally Posted by Maltese Charlie

A blind person is that one who reads "Tuttosport" and believes everything in it.

If you say so, i'll believe you ! Too bad i can't read Italian..maybe i would have been one of those blind people .

I think now there's no point in "wanting" others involved, but really its up to the 4 teams to really put up their argument the best they can and really be prepared for the worst.

It doesn't help Juve if Milan go down too and if anything, causes them longterm problems as even if they return to Serie A quite quickly, the effect on Italian football the more teams involved will have will be greater.

I admit that it looks like Meani (not so much Galliani) played quite a big role in all this, but as has been mentioned, as he does not directly manage Milan or necessarily tell them of all his actions, it doesn't really reflect on the club's taking part, but more on the individual.

Quite frankly, looking at what's been released, I don't see any real proof to cause Galliani many problems (he himself never seems to be involved in conversations other than as a topic of discussion), but our real problem is Meani, where there are some strange things said, which could implicate the club. Honestly, relegation really seems out of the question where Milan are concerned, a fine seems fairly likely, whilst point reduction seems 50/50 (not sure what's going on with CL spots).

Juve, Lazio and Fiorentina have FAR more evidence against them and therefore the three should be prepared for the worst (especially Juve). Also, its worth noting that thus far we have been the only club to have refuted any of the charges, which gives a pretty clear message as far as where the club has and will stand on the matter and what they expect in the end (i.e. not much if anything against them).

Originally Posted by ACMILAN1983

I think now there's no point in "wanting" others involved, but really its up to the 4 teams to really put up their argument the best they can and really be prepared for the worst.

It doesn't help Juve if Milan go down too and if anything, causes them longterm problems as even if they return to Serie A quite quickly, the effect on Italian football the more teams involved will have will be greater.

I admit that it looks like Meani (not so much Galliani) played quite a big role in all this, but as has been mentioned, as he does not directly manage Milan or necessarily tell them of all his actions, it doesn't really reflect on the club's taking part, but more on the individual.

Quite frankly, looking at what's been released, I don't see any real proof to cause Galliani many problems (he himself never seems to be involved in conversations other than as a topic of discussion), but our real problem is Meani, where there are some strange things said, which could implicate the club. Honestly, relegation really seems out of the question where Milan are concerned, a fine seems fairly likely, whilst point reduction seems 50/50 (not sure what's going on with CL spots).

Juve, Lazio and Fiorentina have FAR more evidence against them and therefore the three should be prepared for the worst (especially Juve). Also, its worth noting that thus far we have been the only club to have refuted any of the charges, which gives a pretty clear message as far as where the club has and will stand on the matter and what they expect in the end (i.e. not much if anything against them).

Yeah, good post and valid points !!!!

About your question on CL spots ..... even if it goes for last season also, i still think your club will play in CL, or CL Qual. at least ( if the deduction is not bigger than 10-12 points)

Originally Posted by Tony 29

Meani - not a Milan representative !!!?@!!! not a general director, or director, but he was a Milan official, and he is accussed on article 6 !

Tony, here is my understanding of the situation. Galliani was only charged under Article 1. The penalty for Article 1 is a points deduction. Meani was charged under Article 6, but since he is not a managing director of the club, Milan cannot be held directly responsible for his actions and therefore the club cannot face penalties under Article 6.

Originally Posted by Rick

Tony, here is my understanding of the situation. Galliani was only charged under Article 1. The penalty for Article 1 is a points deduction. Meani was charged under Article 6, but since he is not a managing director of the club, Milan cannot be held directly responsible for his actions and therefore the club cannot face penalties under Article 6.

Hehe, my understanding also ! I never said otherwise

So can I see some reliable proof that Milan can only be charged under article one? Because I've seen conflicting reports. Some say 1 & 6.

At the point of sounding as if I am brown-nosing, I would like to again congratulate Tony 29 for his continued input, considering all Juve is going through.

Keep posting Tony 29, your input is appreciated.

warro and tony sitting in a tree

k-i-s-s-i-n-g

Just kidding mate

I echo what Warro says, keep on with the updates Tony, you're doing a sterling job. Well done sir

Originally Posted by Mystik

So can I see some reliable proof that Milan can only be charged under article one? Because I've seen conflicting reports. Some say 1 & 6.

Well, Milan is accused of violation of article 1 for direct responsibility (because Galliani is general director), and of violation of article 6 for objective responsibility (because Meani is not a managing director of the club).
Objective responsibility means that club is responsible for every action done by one of its member (if a player, and not Meani himself asked for a referee it would be the same for Federcalcio), while direct responsibility means that there is a charge against a general director.
So there will not be relegation for Milan, even if RAI journalists (if we can call that people journalists, and I doubt about it) are still hoping...

i'm sorry Tony, but you give me a huge impression that you are hoping the best to drag Milan into this (albeit less degree of punishment), or proving Milan to be guilty of this as well. Certainly you can do that, and quote however amount of 'evidence' you wish, but the fact that Juventus is in a much deeper trouble than Milan leaves you in a position no way to convince any of us (and yourself, perhaps) that Milan is completely guilty that worths the ultimate perdition, as Juventus deserves.

Your input and enthusiasm is, of course, greatly appreciated.

HOnestly, I think if this Meani guy is found guilty, Milan will be in trouble too. Yes, from my understanding, Meani is someone who is not directly related to Milan Management.... but what he is accussed of doing is unacceptable, and if he is found guilty, Milan will also be punish as well. Here is why, simply b/c if Milan can get away with Meani being found guilty, other clubs from then on will always ask someone in the same position of Meani to do their dirty works for them, since the club itself will always get away with it. Therefore, if they really want to send the message, I guess Milan will be punish also.

Originally Posted by Tony 29

1. Maybe those matches were being analised and that explains the charges against Galliani and Meani. I doubt you remember everything that happened on Milan-Chievo match. Are you sure there weren't situations when the linesman (Meani's choice linesman, i mean) called offside for Chievo, and there actually wasn't offside ???
If you do remember everything that happened on that match, then i'm sorry for saying all this, and i'll believe you. But if you don't, then i prefer to believe the guys who found this match suspicious, and are accussing Galliani and Meani right now !

2. Oh yes, one Milan employee was caught asking for refs in Chievo and Fiorentina matches...and got them at the end.
Clubs are responsible for everything that is done for them by their employees.
And again...so what if Milan lost the championship at the end ?it means they weren't fixing, or it means that Juve was fixing more than Milan, or they fixed equal amount of matches but Juve won more non fixed matches ?
To sum up : Maybe versus Juve, Milan was a victim, but versus all the others...hmmmm, i don't see Inter in 4 clubs mentioned yesterday ! I believe Inter, Lecce, Palermo or Messina fans won't concider you as victims, but as fixers !
And get used to this. When Juve will fall in Serie B, Milan will become the next Juve. The evil fixers helped by the refs !
There will have to be an explanation for Inter's and Roma's failures...and it will be Milan and Berlusconi...as Moggi and Juve were previously !


3. You forgot to add : Of all time in football history !
This was too much biased so it doesn't deserve an answer for me !


If you say so, i'll believe you ! Too bad i can't read Italian..maybe i would have been one of those blind people .

1. May be??????? So you are not sure that the matches had been analised, but still you are 100% sure that Milan are guilty.....(unbelievable)

Here in Malta we can watch mostly all the Italian TV stations, so besides that I watch all Milan games live, I hardly miss the Sunday evening sport programs which are full of slow motions and analisis in detail of the games.
And yes the controversally decisions in that match which I remember were against Milan.

2. For the argument sake, lets say Meani is guilty for the telephone calls.
Are you saying that if an employee ( like you said) who's not a member of the senior management and wasn't following orders from above is found guilty, goes on the company's direct responsability? No it is not, and I'm glad I don't agree with you also on this.

Let's talk on facts, not "Algebra equations" like you tried to do with a lot of iffs.
The prosecution has only Meani's telephone calls in it's hand.
The above calls are a fact and cannot be denied, but the content of the above calls can lead you into more than one interpretation.

The theory that Milan were fixing games has no sense to me as I said before.
It could be checked by analising the matches. And I am very positive on this.

Another theory it could be that Meani was asking for personel that were Not under Moggi's control just to guarantee a clean match, keep in mind that Milan were severely punished by the refereeing decisions before the telephone calls.
In this case Milan are victims, and if there is some guilt, it is much much less than match fixing.

In my opinion Milan will loose only the scudetto. If there will be a points deduction it will be so minimal that even the CL is safeguarded.

And I also believe that ONLY Juventus will be relagated to serie B.

Fiorentina are also a victim and most probably will loose only the C/L and goes to Uefa.

Lazio (victim) only out of european games but still in serie A.

and finally Roma and Chievo in C/L.

N.B. though you cannot read Italian you are still input a lot of dirt in your mind by reading Tuttosport articles translated in english on other sites.

i have already given up on this tony29. you can insist milan is guilty and whatever crap you can come up with and see whether anyone would believe. the fact is before this scandal come up, nobody EVER mention milan is fixing matches and having unfair advantage while juve is constantly accussed of match fixing, bribing refs by fans of ALL the other serie A clubs. the performances on the field and the results is what prove that we are innocent. you can say whatever you want, we doesn't have to buy that, you can't, for goodness sake, even give a convincing argument. your only so called "proof" is juve cheated so milan must have cheated, or imply milan cheated because an employee suggested a "linesman", not even a proper ref for a match. If milan want to fix match, we can't even get a proper ref for it and have to get a linesman who can only decide offsides and might even get over-ruled for that. sound really "smart" for a cheating club like milan. have it occur to you that Meani might be acting on his own for his own reasons? maybe he would benefit from a good result from the match or he feel that milan have been treated unfairly in the previous matches etc? you doesn't even consider other options, you just love to see things form your own views which is to convict milan of all wrongdoings. you mention so many wiretaps that show milan is guilty but what come out of it, milan isn't even charged for that, meaning your "sources" (pro-juve in nature) is nothing more that just crap and lies. stop feeding yourself the crap from pro-juve websites, look at things objectively and see the truth rather than something other people would have you believe.

I strongly believe that Milan is not guilty.Look at our CL succes, we are regarded as one of the Europes most stronger teams.
We have been in the final last year , this year in semi-final this is not just a coincidence.

@ Hwmook

Well said!!!!!

@ Tony 29: If you like to refresh your memory in the coming days Milan Channel will show again the Match Milan Chievo of the 20th April 2005. Following a banner: NOTHING to HIDE.


Nei prossimi giorni Milan Channel manderà in onda la partita Milan-Chievo del 20 aprile 2005. L'accompagnerà idealmente una scritta: non abbiamo niente da nascondere (AC MILan.com)