All posts re: the Italian Football Scandal (Moggipoli)

People, since most of what you said here has allready been discussed many times in previous pages on this topic, and i don't want to repeat what i said more than 30 times allready...i will not answer your questions, nor i will reply on your posts.

The only reply will go on Jeff's post :

Originally Posted by Jeff

i'm sorry Tony, but you give me a huge impression that you are hoping the best to drag Milan into this (albeit less degree of punishment), or proving Milan to be guilty of this as well. Certainly you can do that, and quote however amount of 'evidence' you wish, but the fact that Juventus is in a much deeper trouble than Milan leaves you in a position no way to convince any of us (and yourself, perhaps) that Milan is completely guilty that worths the ultimate perdition, as Juventus deserves.

Your input and enthusiasm is, of course, greatly appreciated.

I will be honest Jeff :
My biggest wish will be Juve to stay , Milan to fall - but it's impossibille
Since Milan falling means Juve falling, then my second wish is Milan not to get even points deduction punishment, and i'll have a hope for easier punishment for Juve !

I'M not drugging Milan into this, why are you saying this ??? I'm not the one who did it..Meani, Galliani and the investigators did it. Don't be angry at me for what some people i don't know did .

And also, why do you always have to compare Milan's guilt with Juve's ?
I will say loud and clear here that i believe Juve did more dirty stuff than Milan, so whatever accusation you have for Juve , i say : Yes, they did it.
Now, after i said this, may you please, when you are trying to present to me Milan as victims, not to compare them with Juve, but with all the other clubs ?
That's what i'm doing, but since you can't compare Milan with the other clubs ( because the other clubs didn't win as much as Milan, and their employees weren't caught asking for refs on their matches) you are always going after Juve.




And all of us know Juve was playing dirty, but if you read the accusations for Juve and Moggi, you won't find "asking for refs" "fixed matches" and similar stuff.
Moggi was playing dirty. He wasn't doing that for Juve to succeed, but for power only !
He was helping all the other clubs that needed help, he wasn't doing that for Juve only. As, much as i know, he's not a Juve fan at all and he doesn't loves Juve, nor any other club. He loves power and he was doing everything to have more of it.
But since he was a general director of Juve, that's why Juve will suffer.


And finally, imagine that Meani was a Juve employee, Moggi was GD of Messina, and the same things happened. Now imagine Meani, the Juve employee, was caught asking for refs in Juve-Chievo, and Juve-Fiorentina matches, and got them. And now imagine that was the only accusation for Juve.
Would you all think that Juve was innocent, as you now think Milan was innocent ?

You know Tony only god knows why I'm defending your argument. I might be the only Milanista that is or will.

Have you noticed that most of your dissenters only care about what Juve's successes have been in comparison to Milan's? They totally forget that we are being accused of "only" article 1 of the charges. Of course that OK for them cause we have "only" 17 titles compared to Juve's 27 or 28. So because Juve has a bigger trophy case of Scudetti makes you folks totally wrong and absolutely the "only" cheaters in Serie A. Pathetic isnt it? And your are well too aware that this lot is the first to want to go after your cheatin players on your cheatin team to play for our club.

Originally Posted by hkmook

nobody EVER mention milan is fixing matches and having unfair advantage while juve is constantly accussed of match fixing

So the years we (MILAN) have won scudetto were "gifted" to us by Moggi and Juve right? You'll need to explain how we pulled this off buddy. Especially when so many here say Ancelotti sucks as a coach. Is it possible we "stole" the title fair and square in a particular season? If so isnt that "cheating" as well?

Originally Posted by KingTiger

Look at our CL succes, we are regarded as one of the Europes most stronger teams.

And this is your basis you are using to say we didnt cheat? You could have come up with an infinite number of reasons to try and prove Milan doesnt cheat and you go for what is in a trophy case. LOL! LMAO! My god talk about what I was saying in the 2nd paragraph of this post! Its a us vs what they got and won argument. LOL!

...back to HWmook

Originally Posted by hwmook

you doesn't even consider other options, you just love to see things form your own views

I would hope you consider other options yourself. Milan could be guilty too. And if we profess our innocence, be aware that Juve should be accorded that right as well. That way in your own words...."consider other options" or possibilities.

http://www.worldcuplatest.com/juvent...for--4158.html

According La Gazzetta delo sport: Juventus face relegation, and milan points off (13-20)

So, how about the Chapions league next season??

Originally Posted by Helena

http://www.worldcuplatest.com/juvent...for--4158.html

According La Gazzetta delo sport: Juventus face relegation, and milan points off (13-20)

So, how about the Chapions league next season??

The 13 - 20 points are worked out as the amount of points Milan had infront of Inter (12) and Roma (19).

In both cases Milan still plays the C/L. Obviosely if it is 20 points Milan has to play the qualification round.

Well they say Milan will still be in CL but with 13-20 points off
Technically its not a disaster, but Im unhappy with that...why would we lose such number of points for a ridiculous incident??

I'm going to play with your post a bit Dev. Bear with me as what you have said is quite interesting.

Originally Posted by ACMILAN1983

I admit that it looks like Meani (not so much Galliani) played quite a big role in all this, but as has been mentioned, as he does not directly manage Milan or necessarily tell them of all his actions, it doesn't really reflect on the club's taking part, but more on the individual.

Ok... so we also need to establish and be aware what the motives were of these individuals including Moggi. If the motives of refs and officials were for self enrichment, then why are we punishing the clubs? You see no one has clearly established or proven the reason for match fixing was for the progression or awarding for the clubs. I'm sorry folks but because Juve have 28 titles compared to our 17, it isnt proof of match fixing. If the motive was to reward the club, than Juve, Lazio, Fiorentina AND MILAN deserve to be relegated. BOTTOM LINE! If the motive is for self enrichment... to make a quick dollar on the totocalcio or any other gambling reason, than punish the respective individuals criminally.

Originally Posted by ACMilan1983

Quite frankly, looking at what's been released, I don't see any real proof to cause Galliani many problems (he himself never seems to be involved in conversations other than as a topic of discussion), but our real problem is Meani, where there are some strange things said, which could implicate the club. Honestly, relegation really seems out of the question where Milan are concerned, a fine seems fairly likely, whilst point reduction seems 50/50 (not sure what's going on with CL spots).

Again it needs to be established if the motive was for the club or the particular individual. Lets not assume that Juve are guilty because the motive was to reward the club. Likewise let us not think we are not guilty because Meani was only self serving himself with individual entitlement. We need to ask and answer the question of ?WHY? these folks did what they did. Seems too easy and convenient to just say it was for Juve's sake.

Originally Posted by ACMilan1983

Juve, Lazio and Fiorentina have FAR more evidence against them and therefore the three should be prepared for the worst (especially Juve). Also, its worth noting that thus far we have been the only club to have refuted any of the charges, which gives a pretty clear message as far as where the club has and will stand on the matter and what they expect in the end (i.e. not much if anything against them).

You must have a short memory. Didnt Juve refute all of these charges from day one? Were they not convicted in the eyes of the public before and fair trial? Because of their refute does that make them any less innocent or guilty? Odd that because we refute THUS we take a special note of any kind yet all others should be guilty. WOW! I wish people took notice of this special note when Juve were "refuting" the charges Dev.

I'm going to play with your post a bit Dev. Bear with me as what you have said is quite interesting.

Originally Posted by Maltese Charlie

In both cases Milan still plays the C/L. Obviosely if it is 20 points Milan has to play the qualification round.

That is an assumption pal! Uefa could give the whole Italian contingent the middle finger on this. Is there a confirmation to what you are saying by UEFA?

I doubt they (UEFA) would do that...they would posibly be within their right, but if the clubs have already faced sanctions, then why should UEFA intervene again?

While we continue to speculate, I will continue to hang on to the hope that we will be cleared of all charges, and proven to be a victim, rather than a participant..even though that sounds more and more like a "fools" hope than anything else...

But, as a fan, a fanatic, a die-hard non-objective fool for my club, this is what I have to do, its my grand obligation, my religion, my choice...my job.

Originally Posted by Warro Bantan

But, as a fan, a fanatic, a die-hard non-objective fool for my club, this is what I have to do, its my grand obligation, my religion, my choice...my job.

Well thank god you're not white and in the KU KLUX KLAN. You'd be obligated to a lot of fooloish stuff.

Originally Posted by Kui

I'm going to play with your post a bit Dev. Bear with me as what you have said is quite interesting.

Ok... so we also need to establish and be aware what the motives were of these individuals including Moggi. If the motives of refs and officials were for self enrichment, then why are we punishing the clubs? You see no one has clearly established or proven the reason for match fixing was for the progression or awarding for the clubs. I'm sorry folks but because Juve have 28 titles compared to our 17, it isnt proof of match fixing. If the motive was to reward the club, than Juve, Lazio, Fiorentina AND MILAN deserve to be relegated. BOTTOM LINE! If the motive is for self enrichment... to make a quick dollar on the totocalcio or any other gambling reason, than punish the respective individuals criminally.

I don't disagree, but really I've said what I think based on what's been said so far. Whether or not the club or individuals should be punished is subjective opinion, whereas I've simply used the information provided thus far that has been stating that the position of the individuals influences the club.

Originally Posted by Kui

Again it needs to be established if the motive was for the club or the particular individual. Lets not assume that Juve are guilty because the motive was to reward the club. Likewise let us not think we are not guilty because Meani was only self serving himself with individual entitlement. We need to ask and answer the question of ?WHY? these folks did what they did. Seems too easy and convenient to just say it was for Juve's sake.

Same response as above.

Originally Posted by Kui

You must have a short memory. Didnt Juve refute all of these charges from day one? Were they not convicted in the eyes of the public before and fair trial? Because of their refute does that make them any less innocent or guilty? Odd that because we refute THUS we take a special note of any kind yet all others should be guilty. WOW! I wish people took notice of this special note when Juve were "refuting" the charges Dev.

I'm going to play with your post a bit Dev. Bear with me as what you have said is quite interesting.

I meant we were the only side refuting since the charges were announced (though I hear Lazio have now refuted accusations against them). At this point in time (which is why I'm emphasising the times is refuting accusations), based on the info provided it seems to me Juve are definately in a state of damage limitation rather than fighting against the accusations like us.

I know what you're saying, in that we shouldn't use arguments to protect ourselves and then have double standards in regards to Juve, but my post simply states opinions based on information provided up until now. Its not stating my moral stance on the issue, nor does it, imo, argue against the other teams involved.

Originally Posted by Kui

Well thank god you're not white and in the KU KLUX KLAN. You'd be obligated to a lot of fooloish stuff.

I choose my addictions carefully

Well said Dev. Your most recent post was well done as was your previous one before that.

Warro... you make me laugh all the time. In a good way of course.

Originally Posted by Kui

That is an assumption pal! Uefa could give the whole Italian contingent the middle finger on this. Is there a confirmation to what you are saying by UEFA?

I was just answering Helena.
What I did is a rough translation from La gazzetta dello Sport from which she was quoting.

Per la Lazio, che può vantare, lei sola, di avere avuto in Lotito un presidente che ha interagito telefonicamente coi soli Carraro e Mazzini, cioè le istituzioni, senza mai passare per Bergamo e Pairetto. Per il Milan di Meani (piuttosto che di Galliani), il cui ruolo, con buona pace di Borrelli, è stato già ridimensionato dal procuratore federale. La penalizzazione, per avere un valore, deve essere afflittiva. Deve cioè "togliere" qualcosa, qualche titolo sportivo conquistato sul campo, al club che la subisce. Il Milan, con la Juve retrocessa all’ultimo posto, perderà il suo sopraggiunto primo posto. Ha chiuso il campionato con 12 punti sull’Inter e 19 sulla Roma, ne prenderà da 13 a 20 di penalizzazione

Originally Posted by Warro Bantan

But, as a fan, a fanatic, a die-hard non-objective fool for my club, this is what I have to do, its my grand obligation, my religion, my choice...my job.

These guys can continue singing songs about Tony and Warro sitting on a tree....
But i really like Warro.


and again, fantastic posts by Kui. My english, vocabulary, strenght of my words in this forum and my intelligence don't allow me to put things as he does..although i'm thinking exactly as he does !
Congrats Kui !

ok understood Charlie. Now... anything from UEFA?