All posts re: the Italian Football Scandal (Moggipoli)

Originally Posted by Tony 29

and again, fantastic posts by Kui. My english, vocabulary, strenght of my words in this forum and my intelligence don't allow me to put things as he does..although i'm thinking exactly as he does !
Congrats Kui !

Well... I just want this to be fair for all sides. This whole thing hasnt bode well for any of our club least of all Italian Football. I just dont know why people are elated over the whole d@mn thing. We should be embarrassed and ashamed at it all. SO far me and you were the only ones to come out and say this. Pretty much everyone else has been giving excuses or dismissing the mea culpa's of this scandal.

Originally Posted by Maltese Charlie

. Ha chiuso il campionato con 12 punti sull’Inter e 19 sulla Roma, ne prenderà da 13 a 20 di penalizzazione

This goes for season 2004/05, not for 2005/06. Am i right ?

Originally Posted by Kui

Juve have 28 titles

I don't know what will happen after the verdict, but at the moment it's 29

Originally Posted by Tony 29

This goes for season 2004/05, not for 2005/06. Am i right ?

No, i guess i'm wrong ! It goes for 2005/06

But Milan finished 13 points ahead of Inter and 20 ahead of Roma ( not 12-19) !

And about season 2004/05, if the scudetto is taken from Juve, and if the points deduction goes for 04/05 season also ( and i don't find it possibille, since it will cause domino effect). Then Milan is 7 points ahead of Inter, so depending on how many points will Milan lose (if lose at all), the "champion" may be 1 of these 2 clubs !

But these are all numbers and they don't concern me at all. For me it will be Juve the team who won and celebrated last 2 scudetto's.
But out of serie a and CL is concerning me

Oh, and i wouldn't worry about -20 points deduction. It's far too much. I haven't heard about -20 deduction. Usually it's -3, -6 and -12...mostly -15 !

Actually, I think the point deduction, if it happens at all, will concern season 06/07 i.e. the season that's about to start, not previous years. Could be wrong though but still, from what I've read, that was my impression.

Originally Posted by Tony 29

Oh, and i wouldn't worry about -20 points deduction. It's far too much. I haven't heard about -20 deduction. Usually it's -3, -6 and -12...mostly -15 !

are u talking about point deduction on juve???
i think this will not happen and to milan at last, maybe I seem like pesimistic but we are really in trouble Tony .

these are from Gazzetta dello Sport

Only Juve will go to Serie B
Scudetto: Inter or nothing
Milan penalised, but the Champions League is safe
Fiorentina in UEFA, Lazio out of Europe
Roma and Chievo enter the Champions

Originally Posted by Tony 29

Oh, and i wouldn't worry about -20 points deduction. It's far too much. I haven't heard about -20 deduction. Usually it's -3, -6 and -12...mostly -15 !

Tony these points deduction are only La gazzetta assumptions.

La gazzetta argued that Points deduction to be effected has to take something valueable.
So regards Milan with 13 points deducted they will loose the championship,
and if 20 points deducted they will play in the qualifying round of C/L.

Regards Fiorentina as even the prosectutor Palazzi admits that Fiorentina were victims of Moggi's system, will loose their place in C/L but keeps their place In Uefa. (A deduction of at least 20 points)

As regards Lazio the same more than 20 points deduction to loose uefa but they will keep the serie A.

Originally Posted by Tony 29

Oh, and i wouldn't worry about -20 points deduction. It's far too much. I haven't heard about -20 deduction. Usually it's -3, -6 and -12...mostly -15 !

Tony, for example when a team will be relegated means that enough points were deducted to finish at the bottom of the table.

I agree with everything Kui has said in the last several pages. Most of you are treating Milan like an angel dragged unfairly into this scandal by the devil, being Juve. We are involved in the scandal and have to face the punishment. Hopefully we are not as involved as Juve and will not risk relegation, but to say that Milan is totally innocent is bullcrap! And I don't think Inter is innocent either, they just didn't get caught with the phone taps. Remeber: Its only cheating if you get caught.

BTW Some of the individuals involved in the scandal could be in danger. People who put big money on the games and have found out that they were fixed will not be happy, to say the least. I won't be surprised if some of them get whacked.

Originally Posted by Kui

Well... I just want this to be fair for all sides. This whole thing hasnt bode well for any of our club least of all Italian Football. I just dont know why people are elated over the whole d@mn thing. We should be embarrassed and ashamed at it all. SO far me and you were the only ones to come out and say this. Pretty much everyone else has been giving excuses or dismissing the mea culpa's of this scandal.

Kui, while I wont pride myself as a student of Italian culture, (and to top it off, I have never even been to Italy, to have first hand observations of my own), I can only state my perceptions based on what I have been exposed to via the internet, my contact with Italians in New York, and what literature (especially of a footballing nature) I have read.

Now, if the news out of Italy for the past 30 years is to be believed, then one can make some broad assumptions about the Italian way of life, and I hope and pray, as I try to make a point, that I do not offend any of my Italian friends.

a) The entire political system, up to the "Clean hands campaign" was/is corrupt.
Which begs a question: So if the political system is currupt, why not the football system?
b) The judicial system is corrupt, as is the financial system.
Which begs a couple of questions: So if the judicial system is corrupt, can we expect any real "justice" with regard to the outcome of football scandals such as the one we currently are embroiled in? Are you aware of the complicated set of accounting practiced by allthe Serie A clubs, which allows them to continue to "survive" relegation which is automatic for a club in their "real" financial situation?

Now, I said all of that, to say this: Why should we be embarassed? This is the modus oparendi of Italy, and Italian football...where cheating is perceived as being ok, as long as you dont either admit to it, or get caught at it.

The broadbrush stereotype is of a country riddled by, and supported by, black market economics, and organised crime...you really expected football, with its status and economics, to be somehow exempt?

I love my club, and I am a realist, and I say, we are less guilty, but in a sense, just as guilty as the rest of them. The fact is, Moggi and as a result, Juve, for whom he worked, developed a system that exceeded our own potential set up (based on the worst anti Milan interpretation of the wiretaps) hence they being more "successfull" than us. Best case, we were cheated.

Bottom line: in the country where our club is based, very little is "clean", therefore, we can only really take pride in being "more" clean or "less" dirty than our fellow clubs.

Now, so as to show my lack of any ill will, I find Jamaica, my own country, to be no better than Italy, or any other, in terms of corruption, etc....having lived in the US, I also share the view that they are also very corrupt, but are more adept at hiding it. (sorry to take it political here, but I am only trying to make a point to my friend Kui).

Originally Posted by Warro Bantan

The broadbrush stereotype is of a country riddled by, and supported by, black market economics, and organised crime...you really expected football, with its status and economics, to be somehow exempt?.

I'm not offended, but i think you are going too far and I'm sorry you have such an idea of my country.
In Italy there is a lot of people who live and work honestly, we are not a nation of mafiosi.
I'm the first to criticize some aspect of Italian culture, but I'm sorry when i see people who speaks of us basing their opinions on stereotypes

Originally Posted by BlackRedInferno

I'm not offended, but i think you are going too far and I'm sorry you have such an idea of my country.
In Italy there is a lot of people who live and work honestly, we are not a nation of mafiosi.
I'm the first to criticize some aspect of Italian culture, but I'm sorry when i see people who speaks of us basing their opinions on stereotypes

Ahh, glad I didnt sign off yet...no BlackRedInferno...that isnt what I am trying to say, from a personal perspective...when I said broadbrush stereotype...that is the public perception, not necessairily mine...though I do believe that there are serious levels of corruption as I have already stated.

I do believe that there are hardworking, honest citizens of Italy, north and south...its the structure that is rotten...not the people!

Sorry if you felt I went too far, and I apologise for not being crystal clear...in fact, of all the countries in Europe, I admire Italy the most.

Kindly note that I do not hold my country as being any better...most people here have a utopian ideal with regard to Jamaica, yet we are ranked along similar lines as one of the most corrupt countries in the world...not that I am proud of it, but I am not offended if people have that perception of Jamaica...or if its a stereotypical description of the country (ie painted with a broad brush)

It's in Italian, but maybe it can be helpful for some of you guys :

Here is the full version of Borrelli's report (190 Pages):

http://download.repubblica.it/pdf/20...relli_1-25.pdf

http://download.repubblica.it/pdf/20...elli_26-50.pdf

http://download.repubblica.it/pdf/20...elli_51-75.pdf

http://download.repubblica.it/pdf/20...lli_76-100.pdf

http://download.repubblica.it/pdf/20...li_101-125.pdf

http://download.repubblica.it/pdf/20...li_126-150.pdf

http://download.repubblica.it/pdf/20...li_151-175.pdf

http://download.repubblica.it/pdf/20...li_176-190.pdf


Pages about Galliani and Meani are pages 151-161 !!!