All posts re: the Italian Football Scandal (Moggipoli)

seems like tony is in a predicament to prove everybody wrong. well tony keep it coming

The_Fan, we can't ban people if they annoy you, and Tony hasn't done anything wrong, simply putting his opinion forward in fair manner.

Tony, you're welcome here at MM as is a fan of any team, as long as they are respectful towards other posters and adhere to the forum rules. So far your posts have been respectful and brought about interesting discussions, and so are welcomed and appreciated. Though it would be appreciated to not accuse The_Fan of being Sash, as that could lead to the topic diverging greatly from the original discussion, as has been done in another thread.

Right, back to the topic. I must say this topic is very interesting. Personally, I won't accuse Juve of anything yet, as they may have many questionable decisions in their favour, but so do most big sides in football.

To be honest, like most posters, I certainly wouldn't be shocked if Juve were found guilty of match fixing, as over the years much controversy has surrounded the club, such as questionable decisions, accusations of other illegal activities (doping scandal) and a number of times that respected individuals within the sport have accused Juve of such activities (Mazzone and Zeman to name a couple). Add to this that Juve players in the past have admitted to being given drugs in the 90s, so to find out there is greater controversy surrounding the club is no great surprise, especially as they have been accused of match fixing for years now.

However, there is one factor to note. No explicit proof has been displayed to expose Juve of match fixing and so to do so at this point cannot be justified with a strong argument. For that reason, I personally won't accuse Juve of anything until more substantial evidence is brought forward about the match fixing.

What I'm more interested in is that the UEFA official that spoke to Moggi on the phone leaked information to him as a "favour" it seems, before such information should have been disclosed. This is a great offence to the rules that should be adhered to, so therefore it is necessary to question 'why was this information disclosed', 'why it was disclosed to Juve officials' and 'what do the involved parties have to gain from this information'.

For now, this matter needs further investigation to get further information about these conversations and exactly what they mean. Its too early to make any strong accusations yet, but such evidence cannot be ignored.

Originally Posted by Tony 29

Now count the titles since Berlusconi is Milan's owner and you'll get this: Milan 7 Scudetto's, Juventus 6 Scudetto's (and 1 pending)...more or less, same level, right ?

Sportmenship it was, and thanks for Abbiatti. Now you ask yourself: why would Berlusconi give Abbiati to a team that is "stealing", "cheating" "bying refs" etc. ? Maybe clear sportmenship, maybe some deal between him and Juve owner and small possibility: maybe because he wanted to get better image few months before the elections in Italy ?

For the first point, you are right. So instead of accusing Juve, I"ll give Moggi some credits.

And please, now you sound like Italian, everything with a conspiracy. "Maybe because he wanted to get better image few months before the elections in Italy ??"

I mean WTF


1) how many people who vote actually will ever notice Milan loaned Abbiati?
2) Out of the people who knows, how many of them will ever take this into consideration?
3) Out of the people who knows, who are stupid enough to judge Berlusconi based on loaning out a player?

And a small deal between Juve and Milan?

Don't you think you are stretching a little bit too far here?
*********

It's nice to have some defense from Juventus here. TBH I don't know if Juve has done it, but I do believe that the source is quite reliable. As you said, Moggi has not been 'caught' yet, that's why he is 'smart'... GOOD FOR HIM, GOOD FOR JUVENTUS.

But let the MM members here judge whether they want a boss who is "smart" because haven't gotten 'caught' yet or want a mediocre team but an honest management. To me, the answer is obvious.


I'll come back to the stats later once I have the time.

Originally Posted by Tony 29

First of all, respect to Kui. Great fan of his club and yet always can see the big picture

Actually... I'll reciprocate and say respect to you Tony29. Thanks for your comments.

Originally Posted by Tony29

( although i still find it hard to believe that Inter are behind this, but then again, it's possibile).

I must apologize for giving you the impression of this. I did not mean it in this way. I dont think Inter are behind this. But the case remains that if all this allegations are actually true, I dont think it will help AC Milan one iota. The club that will end up on the upper hand will be Inter. Say if this alleged scandal destroys Juve (I dont think it will), but say if it does... who becomes the new target??? AC Milan and not Inter. Likewise I must again reciprocate and say personally I dont like Juve. YET I too very much respect the legacy of this club as well as its accomplishments.

What worries me about this alleged conspiracy is that IMO I dont think there is a conspiracy at all and IF there is one, it doesnt just involve Moggi and Club Juve. It would also indirectly or even very much directly involve all Calcio Federated Clubs including our own AC Milan. That's how a conspiracy works people! Somebody in this thread made a comment that it was "proof positive" that Moggi's behavior only reinforces the idea that there was conspiracy going on and that Moggi was "silent" on this issue. For one thing this MilanMania member was wrong as Moggi did speak out in his own defense. Strangely all other clubs and officials, even the most rapid AntiJuve ones from Fiorentina and Roma are mysteriously silent. Why??? Is it perhaps that despite the allegations, that Juve actually may be innocent of these charges??? Why is it only the AntiJuve fans quick to shout "CONSPIRACY"? If you fools out there believe in a conspiracy than at least know how a conspiracy actually works. Juve cant do this alone. Juve cant do this alone with the help of only a few officials. There needs to be more and that more I'm talking about is the unspoken, unwritten, understanding of all participant clubs in Calcio Italia. If you fools out there believe in a conspiracy and also in your little mind that Carlo sucks as a coach, boy what a contradiction! We actually got a coach who supposedly "sucks" that somehow wins us a scudetto in the midst of a perpetual CONSPIRACY. How is this possible??? Figure that one out id!ots! Then give me an excuse to such stupidity... I'm all ears!

AGAIN...as I asked before to my fellow Rossoneri... Iin pursuit of justice, are we willing in the good name of justice ready to pursue this all the way to a point where it damages all of Calcio Italia? You see I think people have lost focus. I think many AntiJuve fans are more concerned with the "We've been robbed!" sentiment than actually the pursuit of justice. I think people dont even know what the hell justice is! JUSTICE not only entails the pursuit of a conviction, but also the pursuit of exoneration and most importantly the pursuit of TRUTH. Honestly I dont think the lot is even intersted in the pursuit of truth as so many have already made up their minds! And that's a shame for it tells any sensible human being that these lot of fools are not concerned or interested about justice. All it is, is a weakness in character where these people just covet. Such people have the belief in their head that they have the sole right to something that they perhaps havent rightfully earned at all. Any decent respectable fan especially from our club AC Milan should not be coveting anything from another Club full well knowing the titles that we possess already. What do any of us want from Juve? Do we not have an equally proud and impressive record of success? Why do so many covet? With the endless posts in this thread and throughout droves of football forums about "how we was robbed" dont any of you even think about it by telling me this isnt so! If any of my fellow Rossneri thinks otherwise... BRING IT!

Lastly I want to thank Tony29 for giving his defense and alternative viewpoints and speculations. Frankly this conspiracy cr@p needs to stop already. Transcripts can be taken way out of context. On that topic...Tony29 you might find this thread (CLICK)Moggi will become Milanista(CLICK) of particular interest. Use it ruthlessly in your defense and hold some of these members posts accountable on their very own words. That way they cant feel the sting that they are hypocritically poking around themselves. Then they'll perhaps know what it is like when we got a transcript of what they said and to put it out of context. This isnt the only one. There's loads of this crap where you find total contradiction coming from your dissenters to yours and Juve's case. I'll give you this one. The rest you'll have to do your own research. Afterall you are a Juve Fan.

Yes Kui, its the truth. Many peoplw would like moggi in milan, so do I. Moggi is a perfect man for managers job, but in Juve moggi is just an imploye. He does what hes told, working with Agnielly money. Moggi knows his job, Agnielly has the power = scudetto. We are fools if we think we are gonna win it against Juve fair way. Milan is not fair club, but Juve has more power. On number occasions they stole players in front of us, agnielly did it ( Baggio....).
Our president is Berlusconi for the love of god....
Anyway, right now, Juve got caught and they need to go down. It will not happen but...it should becouse serie a is starting to loose its sence.....

Originally Posted by Kui

Lastly I want to thank Tony29 for giving his defense and alternative viewpoints and speculations. Frankly this conspiracy cr@p needs to stop already. Transcripts can be taken way out of context. On that topic...Tony29 you might find this thread (CLICK)Moggi will become Milanista(CLICK) of particular interest. Use it ruthlessly in your defense and hold some of these members posts accountable on their very own words. That way they cant feel the sting that they are hypocritically poking around themselves. Then they'll perhaps know what it is like when we got a transcript of what they said and to put it out of context. This isnt the only one. There's loads of this crap where you find total contradiction coming from your dissenters to yours and Juve's case. I'll give you this one. The rest you'll have to do your own research. Afterall you are a Juve Fan.

Thanx Kui,very interesting topic it was, but i have no intention of using it on some members. I could use it on you,Zlat, Warro or 15 other members if they were the ones who were begging for Moggi in Milan, but as you have seen in the past ( Lecce match, bye bye Scudetto talks before New Year etc.), using it one some of the members who were writing there will be useless at the end !
And i have absolutely no right to do that. One thing i'm a Juve fan and second thing is i'm new and still noone here. It will always make a bigger impact if a Milan fan is always there to remind them of their sins .

Originally Posted by Tony 29

Thanx Kui,very interesting topic it was, but i have no intention of using it on some members. I could use it on you,Zlat, Warro or 15 other members if they were the ones who were begging for Moggi in Milan, but as you have seen in the past ( Lecce match, bye bye Scudetto talks before New Year etc.), using it one some of the members who were writing there will be useless at the end !
And i have absolutely no right to do that. One thing i'm a Juve fan and second thing is i'm new and still noone here. It will always make a bigger impact if a Milan fan is always there to remind them of their sins .

Well I than have to say that I totally respect and admire your modesty and very modest approach to all of this. Personally I couldnt do this. I would use everything possible in the defense of my club if someone blatantly accused us in the same manner without proof and even a schematic or comprehensive apparatus of how this conspiracy match fixing is even working. Odd isnt it that on one hand Moggi is a "crumb" for Juve but a quick fix for Milan? Juve fan or not, you by coming on this sight are as very much an equal member as any one of us. Trust me... there have been folks who've been members just on their first day who have been bold in their opinions, as they should be. Dont let that hold you back! I am open to anyone's opinion and likewise I also believe everyone and anyone with their opinion better be ready to be held accountable to it and credibly be able to back it up when it is challenged. I would really use it if I were you. It is such a contradiction to their own accusations. Blows them out of the water in fact! Well if you dont use perhaps I will in time. Unlike the judgement that has been already made regarding Moggi, at least these guys will be able to explain themselves and actually have a chance to proclaim some innocence to their words and contradictions. Well your the better man for it. Me... I'm p!ss and vinegar. Nobody gets a break.. Milan fan or not.

FORZA MILAN!

Originally Posted by mrki

Yes Kui, its the truth. Many peoplw would like moggi in milan, so do I.

Again this is mind boggling! First of all... thanks mrki for having balls in discussing this. I admire that too. But back to the critical argument at hand. How is it that we are zealous at bringing Juve down and then exonerate the very alleged architect of this scandal?

Originally Posted by mrki

Moggi is a perfect man for managers job, but in Juve moggi is just an imploye. He does what hes told, working with Agnielly money. Moggi knows his job, Agnielly has the power = scudetto. We are fools if we think we are gonna win it against Juve fair way. Milan is not fair club, but Juve has more power. On number occasions they stole players in front of us, agnielly did it ( Baggio....).
Our president is Berlusconi for the love of god....
Anyway, right now, Juve got caught and they need to go down. It will not happen but...it should becouse serie a is starting to loose its sence.....

Yeah Moggi is just and employee at Juve. Ok??? So when he comes to Milan, Berlu isnt going to tell him what to do? So when we did win it??? Did we out bid Juve and buying refs/ officials and the other 19 Serie A clubs??? Did Juve say... "We'll let you have this one Milan." Gee you're right we must not be a fair club. So we must be coveting. We're not fair either but Juve isnt sharing right??? So lets bring them down, keep the alleged conspirator involved in football, better yet involved in our club so that we can hit our luck 20 Scudetti. LOL! Listen to yourself please mrki. Explain this to me again. I hoping I'm totally misinterpreting what you are saying here!

Im really hoping you are not so naive thinking its a fair fight. Milan wins scudettos when Juve has change of generations or milan has extra class team. Its obvious, as long as Juve has all the power that they have right now we will not dominate serie a. as we are not right now. Berlu cant do anything to agnielli, money makes football spinn in italy. This scudetto cant be win fairly, if its the need - send Milan down too,but save serie a! This is the truth - who pays more-wins it. I dont like it, i know you dont like it but that is the reality. Scudetto cant be won, it needs to be bought. Its come to that. Sounds really bad, well,it is.... Im really sad but people have to know the truth. And that is when Moggi steps up. and that is why I wanted him in milan. I know its all fixed in advance,still,im supporting Milan. Why?? cant explain. Dont fool yourself people, this is mafia making money.football has died long time ago.

Sign this petition for zebras in B

What's happened with all the talk about class? I thought we were a club with class, run with class, and perform on the football pitch with class. If that were the case, why would anyone want somebody like Moggi working at our club? I certainly wouldnt. And if we are going to keep believing that we are a club with ethics, more so, if we want to keep believing that the serie a is a worthy league, then bring it on!! Bring on the investigation and come what may. if milan has also been guilty of influencing ref choices, etc.....then we deserve our punishment. But if we keep believing that all of this should just be swept under the rug, then why bother watching football at all? why even bother watching milan if everything was rigged?

Again thanks mrki for your continued response and clarification. I'll disagree with you on some of your points but will compliment you on holding consistency in your argument.

Originally Posted by mrki

Im really hoping you are not so naive thinking its a fair fight.

A good point and yes to be honest... I may be naive. We all would hope for it to be a fair fight. If that's not the case, than again I reiterate that Juve are not the sole perpetrators to this scandal. Could be us too.

Originally Posted by mrki

Milan wins scudettos when Juve has change of generations or milan has extra class team. Its obvious, as long as Juve has all the power that they have right now we will not dominate serie a. as we are not right now. Berlu cant do anything to agnielli, money makes football spinn in italy.

I'll somewhat agree and disagree. If Juve are buying games, Milan has equal financial capabilities to do this as well. Tony29 was trying to make this case as well. Looking at both of our records, stats, and questionable calls... the argument that he brings before us is that Milan should not be throwing stones if we ourselves live in a glass house. Say this is all true, Berlu got a sh!te load of $$$. It has nothing to do at all if Berlu can do anything to Agnelli especially if Agnelli been dead and buried over 2 or 3 years now. What it is about is if whether or not both Berlu and the Agnelli Estate can use their vast resources to influence Serie A. Look at the the first prospect... if Juve wins a scudetto, they must have payed someone off to do this. So when Milan wins scudetto, a credible case can be made that either Juve did this as a favor to us under their good graces OR we equally and wrongfully bought and paid for our scudetto as well. In all earnest I dont like this prospect at all, but if we lay one accusation against our biggest rivals we too need to be open and candid of our questionable titles. As I said... how is it that we have the "much criticized" coach Carlo winning Milan a scudetto in the midst of an alleged perpetual conspiracy by Juve buying off Serie A titles? What of the players??? I mean all of them from all Italian Clubs? You see it seems peculiar that between fan and someone who actually plays in top flight football, why is it that the spectators seem to think we know more about a particular match, the whole game, and even the inner circle of the league itself??? I've yet to hear our venerated Maldini shout any accusation of scandal ever in his career. Shevchenko has pretty much dismissed any scandal accusations. I am in agreement with Shevchenko in this. Unless he and I are totally dillusional ourselves. I'll take the players knowledge of the intrigues of the whole game over some friggin fan in the stadium, press room, and website for hat matter. You see this whole thing doesnt hold water. And if it did, 99.999% of the AntiJuve fan doesnt think that their clubs are in any part of the scandal. And that is naive!

Originally Posted by mrki

This scudetto cant be won fairly, if its the need - send Milan down too,but save serie a! This is the truth - who pays more-wins it. I dont like it, i know you dont like it but that is the reality. Scudetto cant be won, it needs to be bought. Its come to that. Sounds really bad, well,it is.... Im really sad but people have to know the truth.

So we dont win our Scudetti fairly??? Well... as I personally dont believe there is a conspiracy, I think we and Juve have won our titles fairly. At least you are being consistent in your argument mrki... that is, if Juve wins it unfairly so must we. If that the case, and in the pursuit of justice we should be sent down to Serie B. Actually such a big alleged scandal should end us as a football entity. Also such a scandal will destroy Serie A. It wont save it at all. I'll disagree with your whole notion in the above quote.

Originally Posted by mrki

And that is when Moggi steps up. and that is why I wanted him in milan. I know its all fixed in advance,still,im supporting Milan. Why?? cant explain. Dont fool yourself people, this is mafia making money.football has died long time ago.

LOL! Mrki you might have let the consistency of your argument slip a bit in your closing here.
You in the previous quote said the following:

send Milan down too,but save serie a!

Now how is it possible that you say send Milan down, but save Serie A full well knowing that if you want to save Serie A you cant be saying that as "truth"

I know its all fixed in advance,still,im supporting Milan. Why?? cant explain. Dont fool yourself people, this is mafia making money.football has died long time ago

????

Isnt Serie A doomed if this is the truth people need to know about???
I'll let you explain this to me again. Please do!

Petition signed!!

Count me on the petition!

Originally Posted by Kui

Isnt Serie A doomed if this is the truth people need to know about???
I'll let you explain this to me again. Please do!

Yes, tihis is the truth people need to know about, and yes, Serie A could be potentially doomed, but since people form Juve and Milan are running all the strings in here, nothing much will happn. And NO, we havent won our scudetto fairily,. and we didnt get Gila in fair way, and Milan and Juve blocked Roma and Inter in some transfers and so on.... I really dont have power to explain this so please just open your eyes wide when you are trying to analyze serie a situation. It is the most corupted sport page in the world.
I can understand it is difficult to accept this speccialy from people whose mentality is distanced form Italian or "Balkan", but you should jst know that nothing happens coincedentialy in here. Tony will understand that Berlu has the money but Agnielli has more POWER. please dont take this as an insult coz this is only my oppinion on serie a.
I always liked defensive football, players like Maldini,Baresi,Nesta,Gattuso,Vieira,Emerson.....but after seeing how ridiculos this is, ands realisiing how absurd is to spend my days and hours swetting over juve and milan matches, I've come to conclusion that serie a has lost the football meaning for me. I hope the court can somehow solve it all and clean italian football from this trash called "good managment", which is avtually clear mafia bossinh involved in football, or where ever money is. Berlusconi didnt buy Milan just for fun, Abramović also. You nede to be neutral to realise these things, still, stay close to mentalyty of people that work in this part of europe. I'll not comment on this anymore.
Forza football and not betting industry!