Serie A Suspended!!

Originally Posted by remote2book

i was thinking the same thing....the teams didnt do anything....they just played football..the stupid fans..had to go out and stupid stuff...which is kind of ridiculos.

So there is noone to blaim then, isn't there?
Football clubs are clean, the players are well-m,annered and the facility is in a good shape and ...
there was a unrecoverable loss of life.

The main question(s) is(are)
"how can one affect the behavior of the fans?" How to discourage them from using force and violence? (I saw how some here from former Yugolavia was/were ecstatic about the fire tools on stadia - NUTS!!!)

And since there were fans of one (2) club(s) involved then the only way to make the fans change their behavior is to punish what they liked the most - their team(s).

How do you discourge a child (the fans are children in a sense, stupid violent kids) from doing something bad?
- YOU DEPRIVE that CHILD of SOMETHING that the CHILD LIKES MOST. That's it!!!
So the club(s) will get hit, they are accountable for their fans behavior, like parents are accountable for their kids.

Originally Posted by ukrainian_CA

So there is noone to blaim then, isn't there?
Football clubs are clean, the players are well-m,annered and the facility is in a good shape and ...
there was a unrecoverable loss of life.

The main question(s) is(are)
"how can one affect the behavior of the fans?" How to discourage them from using force and violence? (I saw how some here from former Yugolavia was/were ecstatic about the fire tools on stadia - NUTS!!!)

And since there were fans of one (2) club(s) involved then the only way to make the fans change their behavior is to punish what they liked the most - their team(s).

How do you discourge a child (the fans are children in a sense, stupid violent kids) from doing something bad?
- YOU DEPRIVE that CHILD of SOMETHING that the CHILD LIKES MOST. That's it!!!
So the club(s) will get hit, they are accountable for their fans behavior, like parents are accountable for their kids.

Well...depriving child of smth he likes is not the best way to change his behaviour. It causes anger and often brings worse results then before.
The better way is to punish fans of those teams (Catania and Palermo) by not letting them to be present at the games. To punish all fans and all clubs of Italy is unfair.
That violent behaviour is NOT the result of footballer's behaviour. Footballers and clubs in general are not guilty in it...I m sorry but in many other countries there are far more worse facilities than in Italy..and nothing like in Catania happens. So dont blame facilities and players manners. This is culture and educational system of the country that causes such behaviour.
I personally dont think that players are accountable for their fans behaviour. Parents and government are responsible for this. If I have been tought by my parents that this behavior is unacceptable, no matter what I see from footballers or club's management, I ll not behave in such a way.
By saying this I DON'T MEAN that players and management can behave badly and show disrespect and bad manners. They also need to try to show good example, but NO WAY you can make them responsible for what have happend in Catania.

Originally Posted by Egoistka

Well...depriving child of smth he likes is not the best way to change his behaviour. It causes anger and often brings worse results then before.
The better way is to punish fans of those teams (Catania and Palermo) by not letting them to be present at the games. To punish all fans and all clubs of Italy is unfair.
That violent behaviour is NOT the result of footballer's behaviour. Footballers and clubs in general are not guilty in it....

1. There is no other option but to deprive children. There must be some reinforcement and negative feedback. Like in Pavlov's experiments. Oksana, you are a child as most here, at least for me. And I do not think you, sweetheart, understand how the policies are created and how they work.
2. You did not understand what I tried to say. I never actually blaimed the clubs or the players.

1' Deprivation of something good doesnot neccesserally produce anger or a bad type of anger I think.

Originally Posted by eltomas2

I read somewhere that the stadiums in Milan, Turin and Rome are the only stadiums which adhered to the security regulations, so maybe they'll be the only ones with people in it.

Actually eltomas2... in an article from the Gazzetta Dello Sport cited in an Associated Press release.

Originally Posted by By MARIA SANMINIATELLI, Associated Press Writer

The Italian sports daily Gazzetta dello Sport reported Monday that only four stadiums used by clubs in the Serie A satisfy the safety norms -- the Stadio Olimpico in Rome, the Stadio Olimpico in Turin, the Artemio Franchi stadium in Siena, and the Renzo Barbera stadium in Palermo. San Siro, the stadium shared by AC Milan and Inter Milan, does not meet the criteria.

Wow! Something happening here. When does the troubles stop?

Let me place my opinion somewhere between your argument Oksana(Egoistka) and also the argument of our friend here Meesh(ukraine_CA).

Originally Posted by Egoitka

The better way is to punish fans of those teams (Catania and Palermo) by not letting them to be present at the games. To punish all fans and all clubs of Italy is unfair.
That violent behaviour is NOT the result of footballer's behaviour.

There are only some parts of your argument that I agree with you on. If this recent incident was the result of people who had nothing to do with football itself, yes the fans should not be punished. Keep in mind though that I posted earlier that violence is not the result of the game itself. It's slightly different from what you're saying. The many social ills out there are the perhaps the main cause of these violent occurences, which then are brought to or near football events and venues.

Originally Posted by ukraine_CA

There must be some reinforcement and negative feedback. Like in Pavlov's experiments.

As with Oksana, I agree with some aspects of your stance as well. It's all a matter of policy isnt it? If the actions/policies of the officials is a matter of "punitive" enforcement, then perhaps the wisdom in that kind of action is a bit skewed as it does lump the majority good fans with the louts out there. On the other hand you have a point meesh if the policy of enforcement is in regard to "public safety". I also agree with you that the clubs along with the local/national football and govt agencies have the responsibility when it comes to the "public safety", in which case they do have the onus/blame here. The only question out there to ponder is to wonder what the motivation of the enforcement is all about? Punitive or Publica defendenda?

The answers/solutions are going to be hard to come by in this dilema. Calcio Italia are caught between Scylla and Charybdis at the moment. Whatever the solution is or going to be, there wont be anyone happy at all about it. I tend to believe in certain cases that if you satisfy no one out there, you perhaps have done the right thing. Hopefully the right thing solves the problem with violence in football venues.

Originally Posted by Egoistka

That is the thing...teams are not involved. How can you blame teams? If some crazy people did that...how can you say that Catania and Palermo are guilty in that?

I am not blaming the teams but I'm drawing the paralel to english football where Liverpool was banned from Europe for five years after the Heysel tragedy while the other English clubs also received 2 year bans (undeserved imo because they were not involved in the heysel drama), so it would be surprising to see Catania and Palermo walk away with no punishment at all, especialy since Italy's newspapers are full of the "english example" ect...

So I'm just trying to guess what will be the repercussions on Catania, Palermo and the other Italian league teams... because by punishing the clubs you will force them to do something about the hooligans instead of putting the whole responsability on the governement and police alone aka the "I wash my hands in innocence" syndrome.

Originally Posted by Pireloke

I am not blaming the teams but I'm drawing the paralel to english football where Liverpool was banned from Europe for five years after the Heysel tragedy while the other English clubs also received 2 year bans (undeserved imo because they were not involved in the heysel drama),

ALL English teams was banned for as long time as each other and I think it was 8 years? Also, had it only been Heysel, then they would not have been banned. they where banned due to a long series of incidents of hooliganism out in europe. Heysel was just the crowning of it all.

This banning in turn was not the thing that made them change their laws, that was hillsborough.

question: was the violence caused by the result of the match, or would have the violence happened no matter the outcome?

i heard that a group of "ultra's" or hooligans, or whatever you call these people planned to show up and attack the police... which doesnt sound football related. they just used football as an opportunity.

2nd question: does anyone have link or know the criteria a stadium must fullfill to be accepted.

a simple solution...increase security for the remainder of this season...and make all staduims conform to the criteria for next season.

its unfortunate that people have to act this way. its a shame that you cannot bring your children to a game, because of how certain adults act.

Originally Posted by ukrainian_CA

1. There is no other option but to deprive children. There must be some reinforcement and negative feedback. Like in Pavlov's experiments. Oksana, you are a child as most here, at least for me. And I do not think you, sweetheart, understand how the policies are created and how they work.
2. You did not understand what I tried to say. I never actually blaimed the clubs or the players.

1' Deprivation of something good doesnot neccesserally produce anger or a bad type of anger I think.

Pavlov's experiments were with dogs...sometimes cruel.
There are many other options then depriving a child...
Depriving often causes anger, which later on may be expressed in different ways, sometimes leading to negative results. Or even worse if it is not being expressed...if it is being collected for some time and then expressed in bigger forms. You may think that I know nothing about children bcoz I dont have my own. However, I have younger brother and sister. Apart from that I was a teacher and worked with 7 - 11 years old children. I am not saying that I know something better than you, or better than someone...but I have my own opinion based on real life events.
How can I be a child for you? How old are you? 50? 60? Then fair enough if so..but you are not even 40, are you?

If you did not mean that clubs and players are guilty in what have happened in Catania why do you say: "So there is noone to blaim then, isn't there?
Football clubs are clean, the players are well-m,annered and the facility is in a good shape and ...
there was a unrecoverable loss of life."
I understood it as "full blame is on the clubs and players"...

Anyways...I think punishing all the clubs and their supporters for what have happend in Catania is too harsh. I would probably punish just those who took part in the incindent. Maybe I m wrong...but I think that would be a lesson for all the rest as well.

Originally Posted by Egoistka

Pavlov's experiments were with dogs...sometimes cruel.
There are many other options then depriving a child...
Depriving often causes anger, which later on may be expressed in different ways, sometimes leading to negative results. Or even worse if it is not being expressed...if it is being collected for some time and then expressed in bigger forms. You may think that I know nothing about children bcoz I dont have my own. However, I have younger brother and sister. Apart from that I was a teacher and worked with 7 - 11 years old children. I am not saying that I know something better than you, or better than someone...but I have my own opinion based on real life events.
How can I be a child for you? How old are you? 50? 60? Then fair enough if so..but you are not even 40, are you?

If you did not mean that clubs and players are guilty in what have happened in Catania why do you say: "So there is noone to blaim then, isn't there?
Football clubs are clean, the players are well-m,annered and the facility is in a good shape and ...
there was a unrecoverable loss of life."
I understood it as "full blame is on the clubs and players"...

Anyways...I think punishing all the clubs and their supporters for what have happend in Catania is too harsh. I would probably punish just those who took part in the incindent. Maybe I m wrong...but I think that would be a lesson for all the rest as well.

Absolutely true , I just wonder have u ever posted something which is not true??

Negative reinforcement isnt normally successful in long run...
however if a kid likes to play with fire, its best to keep the matches away.

Originally Posted by icculus

question: was the violence caused by the result of the match, or would have the violence happened no matter the outcome?

i heard that a group of "ultra's" or hooligans, or whatever you call these people planned to show up and attack the police... which doesnt sound football related. they just used football as an opportunity.

the ones killing the police was neither ultras or hooligans, they where only there to fight the police. But that is not reason to turn a blind eye, especially due to all other events that have happened.

On gazzetta.it, it says that the league will resume on the 17 and 18 of Feb.

These are the principle measures that were announced after yesterday's Figc
and Coni meeting:

1. Stadia that do not meet the standards set out by Pisanu’s Bill will host games that will be played behind closed doors.

2. Anyone that is arrested will be held for 48 hours.

3. Stacks of tickets for fans that want to follow their team in an away game will be prohibited.

4. Controls will be implemented on the stadia that have less than 10,000 spectators and are therefore exempt from the turnstile rules.

5. DASPO act’s violations will be considered felonies and will be applied to everybody, including minors.

6. DASPO act’s violators will be held responsible and sentenced to social services activities.

7. In the near future, stadia will be owned by the clubs and therefore the clubs will be responsible for the internal safety measures and the clubs will be forbidden to have any type of relationship with organized fan groups.

8. Coni Italian Olympic Committee will assist the clubs in establishing a staff of stewards to oversee the safety within the stadia during football games.

http://www.acmilan.com/NewsDetail.aspx?idNews=39633

Up to standards –
Rome, Turin, Siena and Palermo

Almost up to standards –
Cagliari: The pre-filtering area has yet to be completed, there are turnstiles although they are not used.

Empoli: Turnstiles will be installed shortly, but there is no pre-filtering area.

Messina: CCTV cameras and turnstiles have been installed, but there is no video surveillance.

Parma: The turnstiles are old and the pre-filtering system is incomplete.

Reggio Calabria: Video surveillance available, but no pre-filtering area.

Genoa: Everything has been installed, but there is still no dedicated Police station.

Renovations in progress –
Florence: Turnstiles installed only in the Curva Fiesole, no video surveillance and no pre-filtering area.

Milan: There are no turnstiles and no pre-filtering area.

Livorno: There is no electronic ticket system. There are turnstiles and a pre-filtering area.

Not up to standards –
Ascoli: There are no turnstiles and no pre-filtering area.

Bergamo: There are no turnstiles and no video surveillance.

Catania: There are no turnstiles and no electronic ticket system.

Verona: There are no turnstiles and no electronic ticket system.

Udine: There are no turnstiles and no video surveillance.

http://www.channel4.com/sport/footba...lia/feb6h.html

I was wondering how these restrictions will affect the correo and the curva's organization. I guess it won't be as delightful as it used to be.

time to get busy... buy some turnstiles, set up a pre-filtering entrance...hook up some camera's and play ball!!! git-r-done!!!

if this is a 7 billion dollar industry for italy, they surely can/should drop some scratch to keep the game safe and viable.

blaming football or a team or isnt right, these are non-football people, fighting for non-football reasons, why is football punished? if these extremist chose outside an opera house to conduct their shanagens, would they stop all opera's across the country. would they have the singers sing to empty theaters?

(digressing)
i have no idea how they get those cannons and flairs into games...its absurd. why would anyone want to cause such a rukus? and i hope that when i go, noone has one of those giant flags in front of me, how in the heck are you supposed to watch the game? here in the states, everyone gets searched on the way into the stadiums and arena's.