All posts re: the Italian Football Scandal (Moggipoli)

its a very sad picture which mrki has presented. there is no transperancy. for example, i don't know what galliani was thinking when he signed the deal with betandwin. he didn't mention on what basis this deal was fixed. he just said abt some good relationship between the milan and betandwin's owner. first of all this sponsorship won't do any good to our name and along with that its just 10 mn pound a year. i won't be surprised if there is any revelation that galliani wud personally be getting a 1 mn pound a year to make this deal possible. damn these parasites.

Originally Posted by mrki

I can understand it is difficult to accept this speccialy from people whose mentality is distanced form Italian or "Balkan", but you should jst know that nothing happens coincedentialy in here.

You nede to be neutral to realise these things, still, stay close to mentalyty of people that work in this part of europe. I'll not comment on this anymore.
Forza football and not betting industry!

Mrki, it is a sad picture you've presented here, but of course it can't be the real picture. Fixing matches, bying refs, taking illegal substances..yeah it happens, and in Italy maybe more than in other big leagues. But it's not a world conspiracy or some movie where everything is known and planned. You will need 1000 Spilbergs to put a tear in Maldini's eye when he wins an important trophy, or to put pain on some players face when someone brakes his leg, or to make some player score a briliant goal from 40 metres in last second, and win the match with that goal.....some things happen not because they were planned before they began, be sure about it !

You're Croat, i'm Serbo-Croat from Macedonia. We've seen all the bull* in our countries and we've been so brain-washed that sometimes we see conspiracy in everything....but if you think better, maybe Maldini was really happy for winning that trophy, or that other player really has a broken leg.......without "Steven Spillberg" being involved in it !

mrki... you're starting to be inconsistent again. It is becoming difficult to comprehend what you may be trying to say and for that, your argument is starting to leak real bad and unable to hold any water.

Originally Posted by mrki

Yes, this is the truth people need to know about

Ok... a fan from Croatia knows the truth above all over the players and owners of all the football clubs in Italy. I'll try to play along.

Originally Posted by mrki

, and yes, Serie A could be potentially doomed, but since people form Juve and Milan are running all the strings in here, nothing much will happn.
And NO, we havent won our scudetto fairily,. and we didnt get Gila in fair way, and Milan and Juve blocked Roma and Inter in some transfers and so on.... I really dont have power to explain this so please just open your eyes wide when you are trying to analyze serie a situation. It is the most corupted sport page in the world.

Yet you'll still support Milan with all this alleged truth you're talking about. Hmmmmm... Interesting. It's wrong for the conspiracy for Juve but it is ok if we do this too. So the scandal is all good so long as Milan shares the spoils. Afterall that is why you would love to have Moggi in Milan. With Serie A being so corrupt you still allow yourself to be engaged in this.

Originally Posted by mrki

I can understand it is difficult to accept this speccialy from people whose mentality is distanced form Italian or "Balkan", but you should jst know that nothing happens coincedentialy in here. Tony will understand that Berlu has the money but Agnielli has more POWER. please dont take this as an insult coz this is only my oppinion on serie a.

As I said in the previous post, I dont know how somebody whose dead(Agnelli) can still wield so much power. Did you not know that Agnelli died like way back when???

Originally Posted by mrki

I hope the court can somehow solve it all and clean italian football from this trash called "good managment", which is avtually clear mafia bossinh involved in football, or where ever money is. Berlusconi didnt buy Milan just for fun, Abramović also. You nede to be neutral to realise these things, still, stay close to mentalyty of people that work in this part of europe. I'll not comment on this anymore.
Forza football and not betting industry!

Ok seems that you've got back on track a bit. But I still dont know how you can say

I know its all fixed in advance,still,im supporting Milan. Why?? cant explain.

and then say that all of us

need to be neutral to realise these things, still, stay close to mentality of people that work in this part of europe.

You yourself may not be trying to be neutral at all. You're not considering the possibility that there may be no scandal at all. You're saying you dont like the scandal yet you would love to have the alleged architect (Moggi) in our management. You want the courts to crack down on this, yet again the contradiction... how do you expect for us to have Moggi in Milan if the courts are supposed to be stopping all the alleged scandal??? You've yet to explain this to me. Why??? It is like you are telling me you dont like it when a "rat" is in your house eating all your food and leaving you none. Then you're not to sure if you want to solve the problem by the rat still staying and living in your home and yet expect him to "share" only to get angry again if it steals from you time and again.

Lets put some fun in this topic

MOGGI'S MSN MESSINGER : (The original is in Italian, here's the translated version)

Family
-------
Alessandro (his son) - "i'm falsifying a fidejuction"
House - "we're all thinking about you, Luciano!"
Lover

Friends
----------
Pairetto - "in a meeting with Bergamo and Giraudo"
Adriano Galliani - "i'm still thinking about that 3-3 with Liverpool"
Trefoloni - "at the bank to take out Luciano's cheques"
Dr. Agricola - "perpetually in court"
Siena Football Branch - "AAA searching a black and white player to borrow"
Diego Armando Maradona
Giraudo - "I'm buying the next two days"
Bettega - "in court"
Lega Calcio - "in a meeting for television rights"
Messina Football Branch - "Luciano, we are waiting for instructions on what to do"
Carraro - "BUSY" (I'm at the TAR of Lazio for an interrogation"
Aldo Biscardi - "the trial is still on top of the parts"
GIampiero Mughini - "Wiretaps? Come on!" (columnist)
Gianluca Vialli - "more Sky is impossible"
Idris
Bayer Farmaceptics - "Nandrolone at 9.99euros"
Byron Moreno - "unemployed in search of matches to fake"

Useful contacts
----------------
Giancarlo Abete
TuttoSport - "Juve on Ronaldinho"
Red Lights club "Le Veline"
Marcello Lippi - "maybe i'll call on Vieri for the NT"
Henry - "I'M GOING TO PARIISSSS"
Lapo Elkann - "What's needed is an injection of faith"
Piero Calabro
Palanca

Blocked
--------
Guariniello

Carraro resigned!!! just before WC!!!!!!!

I will be very happy to see Juventus in seria c2 next year, they must finish like olimpic marseile in 90'.

FORZA MILAN
MILAN NEL MIO CUORE

Originally Posted by pece4ever

I will be very happy to see Juventus in seria c2 next year,

Yes, and then it will snow in the Sahara.

Originally Posted by Tony 29

Thanx Kui,very interesting topic it was, but i have no intention of using it on some members. I could use it on you,Zlat, Warro or 15 other members if they were the ones who were begging for Moggi in Milan...

You could use it if I had come out in support of Moggi coming to Milan, but I dont see any posts by myself in that thread, and I may have given a sarcastic "yes" if asked at some point if Moggi should come to Milan, but I would never want someone whose image is so tainted, to sully the aura of Milan. (ok we arent squeaky clean..but name me one football club worldwide who is....[ok, except Waddadah] )

Originally Posted by Tony 29

i'm new and still noone here.

It matters not Tony 29.....you have every right to post here, as has been mentioned before. We cannot prohibit (nor would I associate myself with this site if we did) nor would we want to prohibit, fans from other clubs sharing their thoughts with us...indeed, ever so often we need an objective view, or at least a view that is opposite to what most would post...

In a bid to keep things balanced here is a link to theguardian, Click here which has one side of the story, and...another link from goal.com Click here has a very different opinion, and one that raises some intresting questions.

Rather than serving to extinguish this debate, I think a quick read will heat up the arguments even more.

I for one, have this to say:

Milan were found guilty (of bribing officials?) and relegated to Serie B in the 80s (I believe)...so, in our past, we have been less than honest.

Juve, have never been caught, but have been rumored to have been involved in illegal practices, and in a conspiracy happy country, it comes as no surprise that the non-Juve person actually believes, by and large, that Juve is criminal, corrupt, and has stolen each and every scudetto they ever achieved...which in my view, is myopic, an over exaggeration, and crap. (They only stole like...half of them)

I view things a bit differently: I think, without question, that Juve has nefariously determined the outcome of not one, but several scudetti...and I also believe, with some certainty, that pre-Berlu, Milan may have done similar things..I think that because Berlu is so politically affiliated, he wouldnt endorse any foul-play, bribery, or drug use, as he would be too fearfull of the political implications were he to be linked to such theivery.

Italy is a country where it is common knowledge that teams do each other "favours" especially when the league table shows that winning or losing the match would make no difference to them...results are traded, simple as that...I need to avoid relegation, you have nothing to play for...you give me the result, and next season, when it may be your turn to face relegation, and with me having nothing to play for, I give you the points.

This, according to several persons in the know, including Vialli, is the norm. When you add the Mafia, especially for the "poor" Sicilian teams...then it gets even more complex...if you consider the global gambling scenario, and the influence that mobsters from Russia et al can and do have (take Germany for example...squeaky clean Germany!!!) then we are talking about a monumentous possibility for dishonesty, and a defeat of the whole concept of a league table.

So why do I sit myself in front of the tv every Sunday (that I can see a Milan game)? Why bother if it is all fixed anyway? The honest answer is: I cannot believe that every match is fixed...I have to believe that on most Sunday´s (clearly not all) the better/luckier team won...simple as that.

Moggi et al, seemingly have been caught with their pants down, or their hands in the cookie jar, or both..but the timing of the leaks has to be mentioned, in all fairness, and if the court couldnt find anything noteoworthy in the conversations, then is this as Willy once put it: "Much ado about nothing"?

No one can convince me that Juve arent crooked...its part and parcel of being a Milan fan, to swear upon all that is holy to you, that Juve are criminal...and I have taken that oath..in this unfortunate circumstance that the gobbi find themselves in, they are guilty until proven innocent.

Sad to say, but unfortunately, true.

Originally Posted by Warro Bantan

You could use it if I had come out in support of Moggi coming to Milan, but I dont see any posts by myself in that thread, and I may have given a sarcastic "yes" if asked at some point if Moggi should come to Milan, but I would never want someone whose image is so tainted, to sully the aura of Milan.

Your post in that respective thread IMO wasnt an attempt by you to make yourself inconsistent or hypocritical. Some of the other posters unfortunately were sincere in this. Yet there are maybe one or two at the most, things that I would like to challenge you on. I'll try and make sense of what your argument is, critisize it and of course give you a chance to reply, recuse, and clarify what I may have misinterpreted. That way we can better understand where we each are coming from.

(ok we arent squeaky clean..but name me one football club worldwide who is....[ok, except Waddadah] )

I'm confident and hopeful that you dont think this makes it ok.

It matters not Tony 29.....you have every right to post here, as has been mentioned before. We cannot prohibit (nor would I associate myself with this site if we did) nor would we want to prohibit, fans from other clubs sharing their thoughts with us...indeed, ever so often we need an objective view, or at least a view that is opposite to what most would post...

Bravo Warro!

In a bid to keep things balanced here is a link to theguardian, Click here which has one side of the story, and...another link from goal.com Click here has a very different opinion, and one that raises some intresting questions.

Ok... this is good. You're trying to objetcive. Will hold on to this ok???

Rather than serving to extinguish this debate, I think a quick read will heat up the arguments even more.

Why thank you Warro! Well there has been no heat turned up yet. Thanks to mrki. I certainly disagree with a good deal of his argument yet he has some good points.

Milan were found guilty (of bribing officials?) and relegated to Serie B in the 80s (I believe)...so, in our past, we have been less than honest.

Juve, have never been caught, but have been rumored to have been involved in illegal practices, and in a conspiracy happy country, it comes as no surprise that the non-Juve person actually believes, by and large, that Juve is criminal, corrupt, and has stolen each and every scudetto they ever achieved...which in my view, is myopic, an over exaggeration, and crap. (They only stole like...half of them)

Yes we do have this stigma attached to us as well and thus we should be the last one to be throwing stones. I'm glad that for the most part you are trying to be objective. I'm one Milan fan that is in the hope that there is no conspiracy and am not at all ready to accept that Juve are in guilty until proven in hopefully a fair and just tribunal. That way, we lay down the mighty hand of justice if found guilty or we temper that justice with mercy if found not guilty. Let us not be quick to judge only for the convenience or the impression that a guilty verdict becomes favorable to our club's interest. Let us be hopeful also that those who are the trustees of justice not be in any way bias and quick to absolve such accusations.

I view things a bit differently: I think, without question, that Juve has nefariously determined the outcome of not one, but several scudetti...and I also believe, with some certainty, that pre-Berlu, Milan may have done similar things..I think that because Berlu is so politically affiliated, he [B]wouldnt[/b] endorse any foul-play, bribery, or drug use, as he would be too fearfull of the political implications were he to be linked to such theivery.

Bam! Ok a "small" disagreement. You with all seriousness cannot be so sure of the Juve accusation and so non-chalantly think that Berlu wouldnt or perhaps didnt do this as well for fear of it being a liability to his political aspirations. I may agree with his political views but common Warro... HE IS A POLITICIAN. In Italy we all know that football is synonymous with the politics of that country. Half of "who you are" in sphere of power is determined by what your ideals/party affiliation you follow. The other half is determined by what soccer club you support and a good deal of your patronage and policy clientele are based on both these factors. Common interest between clubs/politics is shared as well as you have mentioned fuether on in this post. We're talking Jambalaya here Warro... evrything and anything spicy is cookin in the pot. If Juve is doing no good there is no way that we can ever dismiss the other possibilty so submissively. Somehow you may be in the hope as I am that Berlu isnt in the loop for fear that we would be in deep doo doo oursleves. Hey for the good of the game if it be the case we need to be willing to prosecute ourselves and everything we hold dear about this club.

Italy is a country where it is common knowledge that teams do each other "favours" especially when the league table shows that winning or losing the match would make no difference to them...results are traded, simple as that...I need to avoid relegation, you have nothing to play for...you give me the result, and next season, when it may be your turn to face relegation, and with me having nothing to play for, I give you the points.

This, according to several persons in the know, including Vialli, is the norm. When you add the Mafia, especially for the "poor" Sicilian teams...then it gets even more complex...if you consider the global gambling scenario, and the influence that mobsters from Russia et al can and do have (take Germany for example...squeaky clean Germany!!!) then we are talking about a monumentous possibility for dishonesty, and a defeat of the whole concept of a league table.

INDEED! We should also be troubled by the deafening silence of all the clubs regarding this scandal, not only from when the allegation finally broke but also from season upon season upon season. Frankly I think if we were to take a fingerprint of the "cookie jar" we'd find everyones hands in it. We should be terrified at the thought Warro and yet also be willing to pursue the truth all the way to where we too must admit our guilt. Juve cant be doing this alone. The very nature of the beast called a "conspiracy" cannot be done by merely one, two, or three parties involved. You need everyone on the same page. As I said it is only the fans that is keeping this alive. I've yet to even hear a sorrowful or ashamed message by even the most rapid Anti-Juve club directors. Not from Galliani, not form Sensi, not from any of these guys. Why??? Frankly it is possible that they are scared sh!tless about this whole thing. It would have been nice if even one of these guys came out and apologize to us all for even the thought or stigma of this alleged scandal being in Italian Calcio.

So why do I sit myself in front of the tv every Sunday (that I can see a Milan game)? Why bother if it is all fixed anyway? The honest answer is: I cannot believe that every match is fixed...I have to believe that on most Sunday´s (clearly not all) the better/luckier team won...simple as that.

So Warro if this is the case, is there a consorted conpiratorial scandal or not??? So with every "fix" we blur it all with also the act of chance/luck. If one or even several match is "fixed" is that any better than all of it being "fixed". Like Tony29 said whether he's murdered 38 people(matches) and we've mudered 12 people(matches)... how is it possible that we "lessen" one act from the other. To me I think one fix is one too many. It only takes one lie for someone to be called a liar. Going back to the term "fix" and "luck". Trying to even attempt to put these two together and if we were to have a verdict based on these two factors... NOT GUILTY via reasonable doubt.

Moggi et al, seemingly have been caught with their pants down, or their hands in the cookie jar, or both..but the timing of the leaks has to be mentioned, in all fairness, and if the court couldnt find anything noteoworthy in the conversations, then is this as Willy once put it: "Much ado about nothing"?

Yes it does seem to be much ado about nothing. I hear even the translation can be put out of context. I mean even two Italians will tell us two different meanings of what the conversation meant. I also would like to remind you of the player's reaction. Are they in "la-la" land? You think players we hold up in a respectable way would ever be so naive and actually put up with this "scandal"? We fans are on the outside looking in and have our assumptions. I place the playeres being somewhere in between those on the inside looking out, from us on the outside looking in. If anyone has the best perspective between inner club intrigue and fan base, it is the players. They are either silent on the issue and a small minority (like Sheva) are pretty much dismissing this scandal. I'd wish well all attempt to take this into consideration. That is why... I can only come to only two conclusions... no conspiracy at all OR cat's out of the bag and all these guys are guilty.

No one can convince me that Juve arent crooked...its part and parcel of being a Milan fan, to swear upon all that is holy to you, that Juve are criminal...and I have taken that oath..in this unfortunate circumstance that the gobbi find themselves in, they are guilty until proven innocent.

Sad to say, but unfortunately, true.

Well if they are being convicted by the jury of public opinion, then no one wants justice at all. This is what I meant when I said that people are more concerned with coveting than by seeking any close to the truth. As far as thinking Juve being "crooked" as part and parcel of a Milan fan... I think that sounds more like the trait of the "other" team we know about.

In spite of Juve's troubles, we all should hope that there is no conspiracy at all. If there is a conspiracy we should be grown ups enough to save the game first and foremost even at the sacrifice of our dearly beloved club. Juve's a$$ isnt the only one on the line. The reputation of our club, an entire country and the world's "beautiful" game is at stake as well. Let us persue what is right and not what is helpfull for just our club.


Thanks Warro! I redirect this discourse back to you.
FORZA MILAN!

Originally Posted by Tony 29

Bologna-Juventus 0:1 ( free kick, and it wasn't a faul, for Juve in last minutes, and Nedved scored)

I remember only few things about Milan matches, and those are : there were many times 6-7 or even 8 minutes extra time added in some Milan matches, when Milan was not winning...

If it is the same Bologna game I think of, then it is the most biased refereed game I ever seen. They had several potentional penalties and you got every freekick with you that you could ever get. That is not to forget the unfair bookings.

We played one game with 7+ minutes of extratime that year. In that game the opponent keeper was injuried in extratime and the original extratime was prolonged by several minutes due to that.

Originally Posted by mrki

1. Yes, tihis is the truth people need to know about, and yes, Serie A could be potentially doomed, but since people form Juve and Milan are running all the strings in here, nothing much will happn.

2. And NO, we havent won our scudetto fairily,.

3. and we didnt get Gila in fair way,

4. and Milan and Juve blocked Roma and Inter in some transfers and so on....

5. I really dont have power to explain this so please just open your eyes wide when you are trying to analyze serie a situation. It is the most corupted sport page in the world.

6. I can understand it is difficult to accept this speccialy from people whose mentality is distanced form Italian or "Balkan", but you should jst know that nothing happens coincedentialy in here.

7. Tony will understand that Berlu has the money but Agnielli has more POWER. please dont take this as an insult coz this is only my oppinion on serie a.

8. I always liked defensive football, players like Maldini,Baresi,Nesta,Gattuso,Vieira,Emerson.....but after seeing how ridiculos this is, ands realisiing how absurd is to spend my days and hours swetting over juve and milan matches, I've come to conclusion that serie a has lost the football meaning for me.

9. I hope the court can somehow solve it all and clean italian football from this trash called "good managment", which is avtually clear mafia bossinh involved in football, or where ever money is.

10. Berlusconi didnt buy Milan just for fun, Abramović also. You nede to be neutral to realise these things, still, stay close to mentalyty of people that work in this part of europe. I'll not comment on this anymore.
Forza football and not betting industry!

1. That most certaintly isn't the truth.

2. Maybe you should substansiate that? Otherwise I will take it as the hyperbole it is.

3. Define "fair". We all know that we got Gila for a lower price than Parma would have got from Chelsea because he wanted to go to us. But the question here is if that is unfair, if it is his wish (and remember he could have declined to sign a new contract with them and had gone for free instead) then why was that unfair?

4. More unsubstanciated stuff. We heard that Juve, Milan and Inter have formal deals not to go for the same player. Now tell how we managed to block players we didn't have control off. And most players in serie A are controlled by the triad at any rate...

5. Basically you have nothing of value to say since you can't support it. I certainly would limit myself to saying that there is corruption in serie A, unless you have deep knowledge of all other institutions. Of course the only thing we seen any form of proof of is that the triad is deeply corrupted, but they made a career on that...

6. One bad seed doesn't corrupt them all.

7. No, in fact Berlusconi have both the money and power. also this is not about the Angellis. This is about the triad and Moggi in particular, they have a lot of power in the Italian football sphere. also Berlsuconi is not involed in football except for the money part at this point, just like the agnelli family.

8. I already stopped watching Juve and I can't see myself watching them unless they clean their act and begin playing football again.

9. Sorry, no court will be involved. It is about Lega calcio having to clean up their act, will Galliani do that? I doubt it due to the vested interest that Berlu have in Juve.

10. Your point being?

Bravo Kris! Again I ask the question. What do we fans want out of this??? If we want to know the truth are we all willing to get so far in it that we prosecute oursleves as well??? We have to be willing to do this if we can have any right to claim the love for football.

Originally Posted by Warro Bantan

Milan were found guilty (of bribing officials?) and relegated to Serie B in the 80s (I believe)...so, in our past, we have been less than honest.

It doesn't mean that Milan is Ok now, but it only means they are not cought cheating !
I was pretty young in late 70's and at the begining of the 80's and i don't know what was the situation in Italian football back then, and how influental Milan was. I can see that they won only 1 Scudetto in 12 years before they were disqualifyed from Serie A, so (i'm talking hipotetically, i may be wrong) maybe they were not a big gun club back then, without any influence in Italian football, and maybe it was just "Let Pedro hang" happening in 1980, while the big clubs saved themselves and escaped the punishment.
Now the situation is different and i doubt what happened to Milan then will happen to this Milan or Juve, even if they are doing the same things Milan did in late 70's and early 80's.
Juve will pass through this scandal and accusation ( no matter if they hold water or not) and noone ( except for the fans) will complain officially, because as many stated above, if Juve falls, then most probably it's twin tower will also fall and all the other smaller "buildings" will follow.

Not gonna happen...

Originally Posted by Kui

I'm confident and hopeful that you dont think this makes it ok.

This (for lazy readers) is regarding my point about football clubs being innocent of any wrong-doing with regard to match fixing etc. No I dont think its ok, in fact, I completely disapprove of such malign, unsporting behaviour. Unequivocally. End of story.

Originally Posted by Warro Bantan

Milan were found guilty (of bribing officials?) and relegated to Serie B in the 80s (I believe)...so, in our past, we have been less than honest...Juve, have never been caught, but have been rumored to have been involved in illegal practices...

Originally Posted by Kui

Yes we do have this stigma attached to us as well and thus...Let us not be quick to judge only for the convenience or the impression that a guilty verdict becomes favorable to our club's interest. Let us be hopeful also that those who are the trustees of justice not be in any way bias and quick to absolve such accusations.

It looks like, from my perspective, that based on the trading of favors, as mentioned in my post, everybody in the Serie A, B and even C, are guilty of this at some stage...(ie match fixing)..a guilty verdict that sees Juve relegated, serves our purposes just fine..especially if it happens this season..but we know Dinasours will roam the earth again before that happens.

Originally Posted by Kui

Bam! Ok a "small" disagreement. You with all seriousness cannot be so sure of the Juve accusation and so non-chalantly think that Berlu wouldnt or perhaps didnt do this as well for fear of it being a liability to his political aspirations. I may agree with his political views but common Warro... HE IS A POLITICIAN. In Italy we all know that football is synonymous with the politics of that country.

Well, I look at it this way: As a politician, he will be under closer scrutiny than most, so its either that:
a) he doesnt do it, and prevents the club from doing it (my preferred choice)
b) he doesnt do it, but permits his underlings to do it, on condition that it is not traceable to him
c) he does do it, and covers it up very very very well..

Originally Posted by Kui

We should also be troubled by the deafening silence of all the clubs regarding this scandal...Frankly I think if we were to take a fingerprint of the "cookie jar" we'd find everyones hands in it.

Well not EVERYONE. If that was the case, then has there ever been a fair Serie A season?

Originally Posted by Kui

We should be terrified at the thought Warro and yet also be willing to pursue the truth all the way to where we too must admit our guilt. Juve cant be doing this alone.

No I agree, not alone, but it doesnt logically follow that "EVERYONE" is implicated, ie that everyone has followed suit. I cannt see Milan granting Juve any "favours", except where transfers are concerned...but I can see Siena doing Juve a favor...

Originally Posted by Kui

So Warro if this is the case, is there a consorted conpiratorial scandal or not???

I think there is, but I dont think, for example, that Inter and Milan get away with as much, if any at all, match fixing, a la Juve. Why? Well, none of the Milan clubs wield the power that Juve does, or has the extensive network of "owned" players as intricate, pervasive and complex as Juve does. But the Siena´s of this world, like it or not, cannot help but be fingered by observers, when the bulk of their players are "owned" or managed by Juve or Juve´s cronies. The treatment meeted out to us at Messina (?) where the players who were "owned" by Juve tried to end Kaka´s season, if not career, likewise that of Cafu etc, cannot be doing so only because they are sore losers. I refuse to believe that.

Plus, Inter and Milan, maybe Roma and Lazio (except when both of the latter 2 are trying to gain a point to avoid relegation, like last season I think) cannot be too involved, if any at all, in any sort of grand conspiracy, that doesnt guarantee them the title, or UCL spots at the very least...which wouldnt satisfy the Milan clubs for example.

This is a very good reason why I dont think there is a "grande conspiracy" within which these clubs operate...the results speak for themselves...Juve has won 4 out of the last 5 scudetti...I would at least expect Milan and Inter to have picked up one or more to be more on level pegging...

Originally Posted by Kui

I can only come to only two conclusions... no conspiracy at all OR cat's out of the bag and all these guys are guilty.

Yes, but again, who? I prefer to think that it stops with Moggi and his network...

Originally Posted by Kui

Well if they are being convicted by the jury of public opinion, then no one wants justice at all. This is what I meant when I said that people are more concerned with coveting than by seeking any close to the truth.

Juve have been convicted in the minds of most non-Juve fans in Italy decades ago. This is nothing new. Further rumors, reports, wire tap revalations etc, are only providing more evidence to support the already commonly held belief that they are up to no good.

Originally Posted by Kui

As far as thinking Juve being "crooked" as part and parcel of a Milan fan...

Thought I saw it in the "Official Guide to becoming a Milan fan" booklet that I bought a few years ago......just kidding..it was a theory I developed, all the way in Jamaica, just looking at the calls Juve got on a continuous basis...it was only further cemented when I started reading and watching even more of the same pro-Juve bias from the officiating crews.

Originally Posted by Kui

In spite of Juve's troubles, we all should hope that there is no conspiracy at all.

Disagree with you big time here...especially when you go on to say:

Originally Posted by Kui

If there is a conspiracy we should be grown ups enough to save the game first and foremost even at the sacrifice of our dearly beloved club.

This must be as a result of imbibing a little too much of the magic Hawiaan (sorry for the spelling) mushrooms...what? There is nothing I would sacrifice my club for. Nothing.

Originally Posted by Kui

Juve's a$$ isnt the only one on the line. The reputation of our club, an entire country and the world's "beautiful" game is at stake as well. Let us persue what is right and not what is helpfull for just our club.

Noble sentiments Kui, but unfortunately, I for one, would be all for Juve to be relegated to Serie C200, and even if Milan are guilty as hell...I still wouldnt want us sanctioned in any way...this is my honest, but self-acknowledged bias...I am a Milan fan first and foremost, not a fan of football, or of fair play...that comes second to a victorious Milan..of course I do prefer when we win with style, panache and skill

And I also beg to differ in that the reputation of Milan is on the line..we were not mentioned in any of the taps, or any refrences made to us..so as far as I am concerned, its Juve´s problem, and theirs alone at this point.

Italy already has a "dubious" reputation in terms of the fairness of their football...so another example of the underhandedness of Calcio wont make any huge waves in my view.

While I personally wouldnt sanction match fixing by Milan, I certainly wouldnt report them for it if I had the evidence, but maybe would say to Berlu: Please stop this, as its not befitting a club of our stature..but nothing more...and thats just me. I am not asking anyone to share this opinion/approach, I just want to underscore my position.

Thanks Kui! I redirect this discourse back to you.
FORZA MILAN!

Originally Posted by Tony 29

It doesn't mean that Milan is Ok now, but it only means they are not cought cheating !
I was pretty young in late 70's and at the begining of the 80's and i don't know what was the situation in Italian football back then, and how influental Milan was. I can see that they won only 1 Scudetto in 12 years before they were disqualifyed from Serie A, so (i'm talking hipotetically, i may be wrong) maybe they were not a big gun club back then, without any influence in Italian football, and maybe it was just "Let Pedro hang" happening in 1980, while the big clubs saved themselves and escaped the punishment.
Now the situation is different and i doubt what happened to Milan then will happen to this Milan or Juve, even if they are doing the same things Milan did in late 70's and early 80's.
Juve will pass through this scandal and accusation ( no matter if they hold water or not) and noone ( except for the fans) will complain officially, because as many stated above, if Juve falls, then most probably it's twin tower will also fall and all the other smaller "buildings" will follow.

Not gonna happen...

Seems like you talk a lot about something you know little off here. What happened to Milan in the 80s was very different from what we see unfold here. Milan and Lazio was relegated for what happened in ONE game. It was one of the last (or the last) games of the season and it was a meaningless one. Three Milan players and some Lazio players agreed on playing for a draw and betted on the game. Because of that both clubs where relegated, which I find is fair.

This thing with Juventus is of another scope, we talk about cheating on a very large level and also manipulating. a lot of clubs have suffered from this and their feeling of being cheated is well founded. where most people believed this to be true before, now they havethe proof they needed. Had I seen this about Milan then I would have been very ashamed, whether you are ashamed or not is up to you. Gigi Pairetto and Carraro (FIGC) have already been kicked out due to this and most likely Juve will kick out the triad to clean their act. Of course the thing about GEA also being a issue. I no longer have any doubt that Siena lost on purpose against you like I had before.

You are correct in that Juve won't face relegation in this case. Not because their act is clean (for instance Reggina had they done this would have been demoted to serie X within seconds), but because they have to many men in the right positions, because there is to much money invested in them.

Juve will pass through this scandal and accusation ( no matter if they hold water or not) and noone ( except for the fans) will complain officially, because as many stated above, if Juve falls, then most probably it's twin tower will also fall and all the other smaller "buildings" will follow.

This on the other hand is incorrect. Many prominent figures have complained officially BEFORE this happened, you must live in dream land to believe none will do it now. There have already been rumours and talk about teams protesting by not participating in the league if they are not punished. Guys like Zeman and Baldini for sure will be talking, clubs like Fiorentina and Sampdoria can't be expected to not mention it.

Well, now there's talk about Milan being involved in this scandal too. At least there's a possibility that we are: click

According to the papers, two other clubs from Lombardy are involved, and there were four Lombardy clubs in the Serie A 04/05 - Milan, Inter, Atalanta and Brescia. I really, really hope we're not involved. It would break my heart.