All posts re: the Italian Football Scandal (Moggipoli)

Originally Posted by PYL

Tony 29, what are you doing on this site??? Juventus doen't have one for it? This site is for MILAN fan. Keep out!!!

he has as much right to post here than anyone else. He has made some decent posts (and others which I disagree with, as he probably knows), but he's quite fair and follows rules.

From ESPN Soccernet:(Click here for entire article)

Now I have heard it all!!

Lawyer says Juventus duo deserve praise, not trial

ROME, July 7 (Reuters) - Former top executives of Italian soccer champions Juventus deserve praise for helping Italy reach the World Cup final rather than being put on trial for alleged match-fixing, a defence lawyer said on Friday.

At the end of hearings that have cast a shadow over the success of Italy's national team, Paolo Trofino said the case should be suspended, arguing that intercepted telephone calls on which it rests represented only a fraction of calls made by recently resigned Juventus general manager Luciano Moggi.

'The calls on which the investigation was based are approximately 40. We don't know what was in the rest...I'm asking you to suspend proceedings until we know what is in the other 99,960,' Trofino said.

He stressed the role that Moggi and ex-chief executive Antonio Giraudo played in turning the Turin club into the backbone of the current Italian national side.

'On Sunday night, when Italy play France in the World Cup final, you will see on your television screens that more than a third of the players on the pitch were employed by Moggi and Giraudo,' the lawyer said.

'You will see (Italian national coach Marcello) Lippi, who coached Juventus.'

yadda yadda yadda...

Originally Posted by Warro Bantan

And I cannot see them punishing all the other Italian clubs because of the actions of a few...
:

Hmmm, i didn't know FIFA/UEFA can't interfere, so it's of no use to talk about that option, i guess.
But punishing everybody because of few....... how do we know that few isn't equal to everybody ? At the moment we have 4 teams accussed (does this means that only 4 teams in Italy were fixing matches?), 0 teams convicted, so if none of the teams gets to be convicted at the end...will that mean that nothing was happening in Italy, and every team was clean ?
And similar things are sistematically happening in Italy. Last year it was Genoa, there were many similar cases in past years also, in the 80's, 70's, Inter european matches in the 60's.
We get to see some other clubs from German, English, Spanish or other european leagues involved in some scandals, but we can see these things happening on every 20, 30 years...while in Italy , almost every year something fishy is happening.

Lets assume Juve and Milan fall and stay in lower leagues for 5-10 years. Do you think Inter will be the only big club in Italy, or we'll get 2 new big clubs, in lets say...Palermo and Parma - 2 "clean" clubs nowdays??.
These 2 new clubs will take the place of Juve and they'll get some unusual favours from the refs, get involved in some strange scandals etc.
I'm sorry if i'm insulting the italian members here, but i'm really sceptical, and i think that if Juve and Milan fall, nothing will change, except the names of the clubs involved in some new scandal. It's obvious that Italy can't solve the problem alone, and that's why i believe it's necessery UEFA to get involved in all of this ! Not gonna happen, i know, but seems like it's the only solution.

Oh, and btw, didn't UEFA interfere in Olympic Marselle case ? I know Tapi was also involved in some match fixing, but UEFA punished Marselle at the end. Even the CL trophy was taken from them for a while and given to Milan, but at the end they got it back !

When is the Punishment going to be announced? Does anyone know that or has that even been determined yet?

Originally Posted by Warro Bantan

From ESPN Soccernet:(Click here for entire article)

Now I have heard it all!!



yadda yadda yadda...

Well Warro...i wrote similar post yesterday ( the long post ), and i must say i partially agree with this. Moggi ruined the image of Italian football, but he did bring great names in Italy. Remember, he was the man who brought Maradona to Napoli and Zidane to Juve.
Of course, the lawyers are exegarating, but they do have the point that Moggi made Serie A stronger ( by bringing great players in Italy). And when you're playing against strong players, you also become stronger and better player, so theoretically, he does have influence in Zambrotta becoming a classy player, and by that, helping Italy to be in the World Cup final.

But to defend their criminal acts with this...it's ridiculous ! Now the judge should say: Thanks for the players you brought Moggi, but lets forget that and concentrate on what you're acused for !!!

Originally Posted by NestaIsKing

When is the Punishment going to be announced? Does anyone know that or has that even been determined yet?

Minimum July 10th, maximum July 21st !!!!!
That's what one of the judges said today.

the punnishment going to be announced in 10 July

Warro, after reading that headline I did not want to finish the article. Their argument is so flawed its ridiculous.
Its like this: A very generous businessman and philianthrophist has given millions of dollars to various charities over the years. He is loved by all the people and wins many humanitarian awards. However, he is accused of murder. The evidence against him is overwhelming. His lawyers' defense strategy is "He is a good person and has contributed so much to the society, therefore he should not be punished." How ridiculous is that? Even if its not murder, but something like tax fraud or embezzlement, or stealing money from investors, he should still be punished. It does not matter what he has done in the past.

Which brings me to my other point. It is unfortunate for everyone involved in the scandal and to any fans of Italian football, even whose favorite teams are not implicated. Everyone must feel cheated. The players of other Serie A clubs who know that they did not get a fair shot at Juventus. The fans of these teams, for the same reason. All spectators who wasted time and/or money to watch the matches.

But here is something I feel has not been mentioned yet. I do not go on Juve forums so I do not know Juve fans opinions on this matter, except for Tony, but I assume that most are not denying their guilt. I think that the fans of Juve feel cheated too. I'm being as unbiased as I can when I'm saying this. As Milan fans, I'm sure Juve fans identify FC Juventus as the players that make up the squad, not the management which controls it. Therefore knowing that their team did not get a fair shot at the Serie A title because of the actions of the management must be dreadful to them. The same goes to the players. I have tremendous respect for several of the Juve players and I hope that next season they will be playing for Milan. I'm sure Zambrotta, Del Piero, and other Juve players had nothing to do with the match-fixing. They must also feel cheated knowing that the Scudetti that they tried so hard to win were meaningless, as they were actually bought by Moggi.

Don't get me wrong, Juve should definetely be punished, as should we if we are finished, but please don't eat me alive when I say that I feel sorry for Juve fans and players.

Thank you, and sorry for the length of the post.

Originally Posted by Tony 29

Also, besides Milan and Inter fans who were always complaining about Juve+referees affairs, why didn't Berlusconi and Moratti ever accuse Moggi ?
This is a question that Juve fans ask very often, but you have to admit that it's a logical question.
I refuse to believe that Berlusconi wasn't aware of the Moggi system, and that he didn't know how to destroy that system and put Moggi in jail.
Why did Italy have to wait for Berlusconi to fall, and start the trials ?
It all makes a man think that Berlusconi knew everything and that he was also involved in it.

This was exactly what i was saying in my first post on this topic..
Its highly unlikely and very hard to believe that as Prime Minister of Italy at the time, Berlusconi can not know about this scandal and do nothing about it. This goes for Galliani too who also hold a high post. Its like they turned a blind eye to it and thus in a way they got Ac Milan in it too advertently.. You have to be realistic and recognise this fact. I am saying this as an Ac Milan fan and not a Juventini although it pains me greatly to admit this fact itself..

Please open your eyes and think out of the box for a minute and see this probability and it will come clear to you Milan Fans as it did for me..

Originally Posted by Vadim

Warro, after reading that headline I did not want to finish the article. Their argument is so flawed its ridiculous....

Thank you, and sorry for the length of the post.

1. Vadim, my sentiments exactly!

2. Never apologise for the length of a post, especially if its sensible, and gets your idea across.


SkyEdge: There is no doubt that Galliani, Berlu, and the entire Serie A knew about the Moggi system..but if Moggi can appoint a Pope, then really how powerful was he, and as a result, his system?

What about the last two scudettos?
it havent mantioned within the segusted pinishment.
And by the what do you think the actual punishment to Milan will Be?

Originally Posted by Warro Bantan

SkyEdge: There is no doubt that Galliani, Berlu, and the entire Serie A knew about the Moggi system..but if Moggi can appoint a Pope, then really how powerful was he, and as a result, his system?

I'm really laughing whenever i hear this Pope stuff. It makes me think that i'm even lightning this cigarette becuase Moggi wants so.
2 question crossed my mind right after i read it : How come a man who can "appoint a Pope", couldn't have made his team win Champions leagues one after another, and let his team lose 3 finals out of 4?
And how stronger Prodi is than Berlusconi, for having guts and power to finally start to fight againt the evil ?

Of course, i agree with Skyedge, not with Warro. Berlu knew everything, and was most probably involved in everything. I don't mean Milan was involved in everything, but Berlu, and the reason for him keeping his mouth shout, and not doing anything to stop Moggi, could be money or political power, but no doubts he was into it.

I really like the political intrigue that is coming into play in this.
Let's look at a FACT.
When Berlu was an ambitious newcomer to the politics of govt, he used AC Milan to the fullest as a very resourceful tool to promote himself in the public scene. Interesting result.... a top world class power unlike anything the world had seen. A very good PR tool for any political aspiration. D@mn! His party isnt called "FORZA ITALIA" for nothing!
FACT: When his political goals were met, the tool used is put in the sidelines as his personal goal is accomplished. Result: Lacklustre achievement with a few but not as often silverware. Put to the sidelines if there is a better word for it. Now that he is out of the PM seat, what is the best way to keep him out of it? To damage, mar, and what not all his resources and tools that got him there in the first place. Result: The indictment of AC Milan. The new indictment of him personally and the attempt to break up his finincial and media empire all happening in a matter of months if not weeks.
I tend to think he did know the ins and outs of this Moggi game. He may have not cared at all because he was at the time at the apex of his political power as Prime Minister. Unlikely yet plausible.

Originally Posted by Warro Bantan

2. Never apologise for the length of a post, especially if its sensible, and gets your idea across.

I'll keep that in mind

Originally Posted by Kui

BTW you from Chicago yeah?? Remember that tragic accident with all those college kids partying on a balcony and it collapsed????

Guess what? With the ongoing clout scandal and trial in Chicago, it has been suspected (but not proved) that the building inspector who inspected that porch but found nothing wrong with it (even though he should have) got the city job on clout rather than on qualifications. If a building inspector was hired who was actually qualified for the job instead of having connections to someone in the city government, the tragedy might have been averted.
Chicago is so corrupt its ridiculous.

No amnesty for clubs in Italian scandal even if Azzurri collect cup
By : James Fontanella in Milan, 09/07/2006

Juventus and the other three clubs involved in Serie A's match-fixing allegations will not be pardoned if Italy win the World Cup today, insiders have told The Sunday Telegraph. Reports yesterday suggested that Juventus, AC Milan, Lazio and Fiorentina - the sides embroiled in the scandal - would receive an amnesty should Marcello Lippi's side beat France in Berlin tonight. However, sources close to the trial insist this is not the case so tonight Italy's players know they also go into what could be the most expensive trial match ever witnessed.

While England's top clubs, Chelsea, Arsenal and Manchester United, will be watching developments closely, they now appear to face stiff competition from Real Madrid for the pick of Juventus's talent. Fabio Capello, the former Juve coach, joined Madrid last week as new president Roman Calderon's first signing, and it is thought that they may now loan Fabio Cannavaro, Gianluca Zambrotta and Brazilian Emerson to Real Madrid for a year, if Juve are forced to fight their way back into Italy's top division from Serie B. Such a deal would strengthen the new Real Madrid and would remove the burdensome wages of players from Juventus's balance sheet.

However, one Spanish newspaper reported yesterday that Madrid were actually considering buying the trio for a total of £10 million.

Speculation rages in Italy but so much rests on tonight.

While an amnesty is out of the question, the judges at the Italian sports Federal Appeal Court (CAF) are believed to have wanted to see tonight's match before they ruled. A decision on the clubs was due yesterday but Italy is a nation where superstition reigns and having a good luck charm is thought to be vital to win a World Cup. Fiddling with luck at this stage would be too risky even for CAF, whose president Cesare Ruperto decided not to break the spell, postponing the results of the inquiry.

The scandal broke in May after the publication of wire-tapped conversations between former Juventus manager Luciano Moggi and Italian Football Association officials talking about referee appointments.

Three investigations have opened since and last week federal prosecutor Stefano Palazzi charged four teams with sport fraud. He asked the judges to give an exemplary punishment to the clubs and individuals that corrupted the sport most loved by Italians and demanded Juve's relegation two divisions to Serie C and called for the demotion of the other three clubs. But if Italy won the World Cup final many fans, including prominent politicians, would demand a softer sentence.

Italian Justice minister Clemente Mastella, however, is in favour of amnesty for the clubs involved as a way of holding on to those Italian national players who would otherwise flee abroad.

"The government cannot get involved in the issue," Mastella said. "But I believe the majority of fans want an amnesty. As a fan, let me say this: is it fair that Cannavaro and Del Piero and so many others should end up playing in Serie C after everything they did? Or shall we do as Great Britain did, when Churchill was ditched as a reward for winning the war?"

Italy's restless midfielder Gennaro Gattuso opposed an amnesty. "I hope to win the World Cup," he said, "but I hope there won't be an amnesty for those who are guilty. It's fair that who committed a mistake must pay for it. I can't see why there should be any amnesty only because we [Italy] have won something important."

But an amnesty "wild card" will not be played by the CAF for fear of further outrage. However, the requests by the prosecutors are unlikely to be fully endorsed. Most plausibly, according to well- informed people in Milan and Rome, is that Juventus will face demotion, while AC Milan, Lazio and Fiorentina will remain in Serie A, but points will be deducted from all of them for next season.

Fiorentina and Lazio are likely to lose their right to participate in the Champions League and UEFA Cup, respectively, whereas AC Milan will be admitted to the Champions League but will have to go through the preliminary phase.

Juventus lawyer Cesare Zeccone made it clear on Thursday that relegation to Serie B and a six-point deduction would be "an acceptable punishment". It this were the case, Juventus would minimise the financial loss. The bankruptcy scare would fade away, major sponsors will be loyal and the club will continue to float on the Milan stock exchange.

http://wc2006.telegraph.co.uk/Docume...6-EBB8F3864FBC