All posts re: the Italian Football Scandal (Moggipoli)

Thanks Rick for the info...

I for one, am still sticking to my story: Milan will not be punished...

While this latest "punishment" is far more prefferable than Serie B, or a massive points deduction, it is still for me, ridiculous for us to face punishment when nothing has been proven, beyond the shadow of a doubt, as regards our "involvement" in this whole shebang.

Having to go thru the qualification stages, is not an easy proposition, worse in a WCup year...we fought so hard to ensure not only automatic qualification, but to close a 12 point gap....no way Jose! We do not deserve punishment, since we cannot be proven, beyond reasonable doubt, to have been involved, or a beneficiary of, the Moggi system, or any other fabrication of the prosecution.

I think this is kind of good news for Milan :

Yesterday evening Fiorentina signed Adrian Mutu, while in exchange Juve got money and Bojinov was loaned to Juve for 1 year (with an option to buy 50 per cent of his contract at the end of the season).
The trick is: Why would serie B relegation threatened team as Fiorentina give so much money for Adrian Mutu ( i think it was 8 Million Euro) ??????
Maybe because they know they won't be relegated ??? If that's the case, then Milan also doesn't have nothing to worry about.

Originally Posted by Warro Bantan

it is still for me, ridiculous for us to face punishment when nothing has been proven, beyond the shadow of a doubt, as regards our "involvement" in this whole shebang.
.

Warro, have in mind that at this moment nothing about anybody is proven. Me and you are perfectly aware that Moggi was playing dirty, but you can interpret those conversations in many ways, just as Moggi's lawyers are ( unsuccesfully i think) trying to prove.

Do you know why is Milan being charged only for that match against Chievo ?
If you read the whole report, you'll see that Meani had conversations, where he asks for specific refs, for the match against Fiorentina also. You can also find a conversation between him and Udinese official before the final match in season 2004/05, where they are talking about good result for Udinese, and in exchange Meani is asking for one Udinese player ( he didn't mention a name, but we know that Jankulovski came to Milan, and we never find out the prize of his transfer.....probably it was 0 Euros, because Udinese got a good result, and made it to CL at the end).
Milan isn't facing charges about this things, because Galliani's name never appeared in this conversations, but Galliani and Meani did have a conversation about Chievo match, and that's why Milan is charged for this match only, while Meani is facing charges under article 6, because of all the other conversations he had.
So, Milan will get out with light punishment only because of this....but to be honest...do you think Galliani never knew about what was Meani doing, and about his wishes for specific linesmen in Fiorentina match, and his deal with the Udinese official ???
Milan played very smart with putting some low employee to do all the dirty work, and they'll get their prize for that...Serie A again !!!!

Originally Posted by Warro Bantan

Thanks Rick for the info...

I for one, am still sticking to my story: Milan will not be punished...

I would truly hope so Warro.

Originally Posted by Warro

While this latest "punishment" is far more prefferable than Serie B, or a massive points deduction, it is still for me, ridiculous for us to face punishment when nothing has been proven, beyond the shadow of a doubt, as regards our "involvement" in this whole shebang.

I totally agree. Looks like we've got cohesiveness finally. Let's first look at how we got here in the first place. I had my worries that this was from the start a witch hunt. What we all hoped for to be an honest investigation, indictment, and trial turned into a farce once the power brokers and players turned this into an unfair trial of public opinion... an indiscriminate monster.

So while in my heart I do believe Milan to be innocent of this mess, I think we Milan et al, Berlusoni, his media empire, the fans, and even rivals of Berlus facilitated and fomented what supposed to be a fair trial into a witch hunt. And if we are people who believe that history is prologue, to be seen time and again, I bring forth and invoke the memories of the proscribing done by Sulla, Cicero, and Caesar. I invoke the memories of Marcus Junius Brutus and that of Nero. I invoke the legacy of the "Reign of Terror" in the French Revolution with the names of Robespierre, Marat, and Danton. I invoke the words Sic Semper Tyranis and Et tu Brute. By knowing such past where the pursuit of justice did not come to seek truth but for personal gain, those who believed in, swayed, weilded justice in such an indiscriminate fashion were themselves indiscriminately done away with by the very system they helped augment and create. When I mean indiscriminate I dont mean it by the word "fair" but by example those foolish enough to enjoy the spectacle of a riot only to be confused by riot police as part of the "crowd", resulting in indiscriminate method of law enforcement where guilty and innocent parties can no longer be clearly seperated. The same as "indiscriminate" firing into a crowd where even the innocent are not spared. While we may be innocent, the power behind our club... the owner, fans, and supporting media fanned this flame and in doing so walked right into it. And for that we are guilty. We too cheated! Not in the manner as Moggi. What we did was worse. We cheated justice to even our rivals. Let's not be wondering only now at this late time, why potentially justice will cheat us?. I do believe in miracles. It will take faith. I would had prefered conventional wisdom by all of us who now have to suffer. Alea iacta est! The die has been cast. We asked for it!

So if there are those still out there revelling in the thought of Juve in Serie C, a Serie B will be a victory parade for them and I fear yet again we will end up in 2nd place.

Originally Posted by Warro

Having to go thru the qualification stages, is not an easy proposition, worse in a WCup year...we fought so hard to ensure not only automatic qualification, but to close a 12 point gap....no way Jose! We do not deserve punishment, since we cannot be proven, beyond reasonable doubt, to have been involved, or a beneficiary of, the Moggi system, or any other fabrication of the prosecution.

I think I have said what I needed in the previous paragraph. Let just ride out the storm and see where fate lays at ourstep. A good World Cup final hopefully will raise up our spirits.

Here Endeth the Lesson.

Forza Milan!
Forza Italia!
and... Viva L'France!

Originally Posted by Kui

.

So while in my heart I do believe Milan to be innocent of this mess, I think we Milan et al, Berlusoni, his media empire, the fans, and even rivals of Berlus facilitated and fomented what supposed to be a fair trial into a witch hunt. And if we are people who believe that history is prologue, to be seen time and again, I bring forth and invoke the memories of the proscribing done by Sulla, Cicero, and Caesar. I invoke the memories of Marcus Junius Brutus and that of Nero. I invoke the legacy of the "Reign of Terror" in the French Revolution with the names of Robespierre, Marat, and Danton. I invoke the words Sic Semper Tyranis and Et tu Brute. By knowing such past where the pursuit of justice did not come to seek truth but for personal gain, those who believed in, swayed, weilded justice in such an indiscriminate fashion were themselves indiscriminately done away with by the very system they helped augment and create. When I mean indiscriminate I dont mean it by the word "fair" but by example those foolish enough to enjoy the spectacle of a riot only to be confused by riot police as part of the "crowd", resulting in indiscriminate method of law enforcement where guilty and innocent parties can no longer be clearly seperated. The same as "indiscriminate" firing into a crowd where even the innocent are not spared. While we may be innocent, the power behind our club... the owner, fans, and supporting media fanned this flame and in doing so walked right into it. And for that we are guilty. We too cheated! Not in the manner as Moggi. What we did was worse. We cheated justice to even our rivals. Let's not be wondering only now at this late time, why potentially justice will cheat us?. I do believe in miracles. It will take faith. I would had prefered conventional wisdom by all of us who now have to suffer. Alea iacta est! The die has been cast. We asked for it!
!

The best post i've read in a while !!!!

Originally Posted by Tony 29

The best post i've read in a while !!!!

Why thank you! It just boggles me the stupidity of it all. No one can deny that Berlu in the interest of Milan baited and laid raw meat through the media right to the doorstep of our rival. The intention was to get the big bad monster called the Italian Politico and Judicial system right to the intended target. What was not intended or foolishly overlooked by either arrogance or stupidity was that the monster could then come right up onto our porch. We stupidly thought we controlled this monster and yet anyone with a half brain stuck in one's butt should no a monster especially the one called Italian Justice is indiscriminate. It doesnt care if your guilty or innocent. All it cares to do is devour. We never did have this control and still some think we do. We may get lucky and run away from it but Milan is way over its head on this. We let loose the Kraken!

Originally Posted by Kui

We too cheated! Not in the manner as Moggi. What we did was worse. We cheated justice to even our rivals. Let's not be wondering only now at this late time, why potentially justice will cheat us?. I do believe in miracles. It will take faith.

Here Endeth the Lesson.

In advance sorry if I missed the point of your post.

My friend I believe that you are wrong in your reasoning. Why is it we cheated? Because Berlu's media empire fueled the Infernal fires of the scandal? In that respect anyone with a half a brain should know not to believe propaganda! If Berlu's spreading propaganda (if infact he was doing that) is cheating then I say those who believe it deserve to be cheated! If one can't tell the difference between a fox and a chicken on his own then he shall be called a sheep. And sheeps deserve to be eaten by wolves. "The rules of this world are no different then the rules of a computer system. Some can be broken, others can be bent." (or stg) I for one would agree that Silvio the PM while in power could have launched the scandal as an avengers raid against Juve for not winning anything in the past two years. But now the new gov'ment insists that football must be cleansed so it couldn't have been Berlu. And some of Berlus political allies are calling for amnesty now. To me, this is starting to smell like mafia. And you imply that Berlu as PM could have influenced the judicial system into starting the investigations. Isn't this against the principles of the division of power into the legislative, the executive and the judicial (what's the word for that?). Even if he did that it wasnt cheating b/c as Pm he had the DUTY to cleanse the system. As to the media manipulation and it promoting hopes that Juve get relegated refer to the start of this post.

And if we are innocent, why shouldn't we want the two scuddetos back if Juve are PROVEN (in a clean trustworthy judicial system) guilty. I for one would like to see tham awarded to noone. It would be more melodramatic.

I guess Berlu did know but not because that with his all mighty media empire, the all mighty grande Milano(forza!!!), and the PM chair he was in a position of high power. But he just (probably) knew. The other side of the medal is that he was beggining to amass so much power that he was begging to look more and more like a dictator. (And if you ask me he was pretty idea-less for a person in such a position.) So it is percisely because of that that the mafia I mentioned in the previous post wants him brought down. (Should I install bullet proof windows?) This knowledge projected it self in the Milan policy and the concequences of that projection is what we are being charged with. I don't mean that Milan cheated, just that in knowing that Juventus was, our policy changed somewhat. But we must be PROOVEN guilty and in a TRANSPARENT way by an INDEPENDENT court, so we could end up being innocent.

Can someone post a link for me to read the "evidence" that prooves that Milan cheated? And in what games exactly?

Originally Posted by Tas

In advance sorry if I missed the point of your post.

My friend I believe that you are wrong in your reasoning. Why is it we cheated? Because Berlu's media empire fueled the Infernal fires of the scandal? In that respect anyone with a half a brain should know not to believe propaganda! If Berlu's spreading propaganda (if infact he was doing that) is cheating then I say those who believe it deserve to be cheated! If one can't tell the difference between a fox and a chicken on his own then he shall be called a sheep. And sheeps deserve to be eaten by wolves. "The rules of this world are no different then the rules of a computer system. Some can be broken, others can be bent." (or stg) I for one would agree that Silvio the PM while in power could have launched the scandal as an avengers raid against Juve for not winning anything in the past two years. But now the new gov'ment insists that football must be cleansed so it couldn't have been Berlu. And some of Berlus political allies are calling for amnesty now. To me, this is starting to smell like mafia. And you imply that Berlu as PM could have influenced the judicial system into starting the investigations. Isn't this against the principles of the division of power into the legislative, the executive and the judicial (what's the word for that?). Even if he did that it wasnt cheating b/c as Pm he had the DUTY to cleanse the system. As to the media manipulation and it promoting hopes that Juve get relegated refer to the start of this post.

And if we are innocent, why shouldn't we want the two scuddetos back if Juve are PROVEN (in a clean trustworthy judicial system) guilty. I for one would like to see tham awarded to noone. It would be more melodramatic.

well, one of the best posts I have read in quite a while, especially in this thread. And the word you were looking for - "democracy"

Originally Posted by Tas

In advance sorry if I missed the point of your post.

My friend I believe that you are wrong in your reasoning. Why is it we cheated? Because Berlu's media empire fueled the Infernal fires of the scandal? In that respect anyone with a half a brain should know not to believe propaganda! If Berlu's spreading propaganda (if infact he was doing that) is cheating then I say those who believe it deserve to be cheated! If one can't tell the difference between a fox and a chicken on his own then he shall be called a sheep. And sheeps deserve to be eaten by wolves. "The rules of this world are no different then the rules of a computer system. Some can be broken, others can be bent." (or stg) I for one would agree that Silvio the PM while in power could have launched the scandal as an avengers raid against Juve for not winning anything in the past two years. But now the new gov'ment insists that football must be cleansed so it couldn't have been Berlu. And some of Berlus political allies are calling for amnesty now. To me, this is starting to smell like mafia. And you imply that Berlu as PM could have influenced the judicial system into starting the investigations. Isn't this against the principles of the division of power into the legislative, the executive and the judicial (what's the word for that?). Even if he did that it wasnt cheating b/c as Pm he had the DUTY to cleanse the system. As to the media manipulation and it promoting hopes that Juve get relegated refer to the start of this post.

And if we are innocent, why shouldn't we want the two scuddetos back if Juve are PROVEN (in a clean trustworthy judicial system) guilty. I for one would like to see tham awarded to noone. It would be more melodramatic.

Of course people will never agree. Ok... I understand. Tell me why then is our arm about to be bit off by the croc? Is it perhaps covet in order to get these 2 scudetti everyone is fixated on we have to dig deep into the belly of the beast? Make no mistake that being found innocent only means we were able to free our arm from this beast. It doesnt mean we retrieved any silverware through this stupid predicament we're in right now. By consensus you have all convinced me that the Italian legal system is a joke. It is indiscriminate and viscious and yet you still not worry of the outcome especially the judgement upon our team Milan. I can already foresee the conspiracy theory loonies coming out to play when and if the judgement is bad for Milan. If we care to find any light from this case find the leak and the parties involved that really threw a monkey wrench in this legal process as I feel any leak screws up the auctoritas of any legal system out there in the world. So I'm glad you mentioned the difference of a fox and a chicken yet we clearly didnt distinguish our a$$ from our elbows regarding this scandal. If we had we wouldnt be piled higher and deeper in this crub.

Furthermore the evidence is against Moggi. No one has yet to even prove the idea of "match fixing" for Juve's advancement. The motive asking the question "why?" has yet to be answered. No one has connected the dots. I'm telling the evidence sucks as it points to so many possibilties you'll end up in a legal dilema. How is the legal system so sure it is match fixing and the motive is for Juve's advancement when there are many other scenarios of motive. If you dismiss one possibility you end up dismissing all possibilities thus the evidence is crap. Again find the leaker and his cooperators!

The term you were looking for is the "Seperation of Governmental Powers Clause" for it prevents too much conflict of interest. Well look at the culture of Italian football and govt and Calcio Mercato and Gaming Lotto and you will not see the difference between a fox and duck or WTF.

Again try stick our arm in the croc's mouth to get these tainted titles!. I hope you'd be smart enough to knowing the different consequences of a croc's mouth and a hens butt!

We didn't need do distinguish our ass from our elbows as we didnt have any influence in the unfolding of this scandal. The investigations were started by the police and the prosecutors continued to make sence of the evidence and see who they can indite and for what. So, why is the Milan board at blame for this situation. They are only to be blaimed if we are indeed guilty, then we are no different than Juve in this way. But if the President of our club sees it fit for the media he owns to be bias in favour of Milan than that's his problem. It's in the intrest of his media to be percieved as objective. And its in Milans interest to be percieved as innocent. But the exact point is that since this is such a big scandal the Italian judicial system can't afford not to be up to the standard so........

Actual guilt or innocence is more important than motive. Motive will play more of a part in conspiracy theories. We'll see the verdict tommorow anyway.

Ok, nice posts Kui and Tas, and because I have a little time on my hands, I will describe my conspiracy theory:

But first, I need to paint the proper scenario:

Who benefits from fixed matches the most? Well, those who gamble on a certain outcome...Who controls gambling, all gambling in Italy? The Mafia...whichever branch, whatever family, it is they that control it..

So, for me, its simple, the Mafia needed to ensure certain results, and thus the Moggi system...end part 1.

Part 2: Anyone remember the huge amount of money Berlu (thru mediaset I think?) gave Juve for TV rights? Well, I really dont believe that he will ask for it back, and I dont think that if a clause was included re: cancellation if Juve were to be demoted (for sporting reasons) it will be honoured.

The reason: Berlu may have been, either directly, or indirectly responsible for the creation of an alternate "Milan" system, that at the end of the day, couldnt compete with the one run by Moggi on behalf of the Mafia...(I mean really...who competes with the Mafia and wins?) and therefore, this multimillion euro deal will continue, such that Milan escape unpunished, but Juve are given a "life-line" via the huge media investment...while they take the fall...

Here endeth my lesson..oh sorry, conspiracy theory...and u kno what...the more I think about it, the more I feel that as we say in Jamaica: If it nuh go so, it nearly go so. (If thats not how it goes, then it goes nearly like that)

Now to watch Italy win the world cup...how do I kno? The Italian fans, at one of Italy´s early training sessions (I think) unfurled a banner that read: "Moggi told us we would win"...and despite all the machinations that ensured that an adidas sponsored team would win the tournament, the Moggi system will deliver its last, but greatest triumph...the World Cup title.

Originally Posted by Tas

Can someone post a link for me to read the "evidence" that prooves that Milan cheated? And in what games exactly?

This is from the official investigators report (but in Italian) :

http://download.repubblica.it/pdf/20...li_151-175.pdf

Pages about Galliani and Meani are 151-161.
There are conversations between Meani and figc officialls where he's asking for specific referees ( linesmen actually) on matches against Chievo and Fiorentina, and he got them at the end.
Also, there you can find the conversation between him and udinese's GD, where they are talking about "good" result for Udinese in Udinese-Milan match in season 2004/05, and where Meani would like some Udinese player in return !

Interesting thing is that in the report, among the 40 conversations between Moggi and other officials, there isn't even one where he's asking for specific referee on some Juve official match ( he did ask for specific refs on some friendly matches). But in these 40 interceptions of Moggi's phone calls, you can see that he did have control on many things in Italian Calcio !
So, basically there is not a single prove about Juve asking refs on it's matches as Meani did, but if you read between the lines, then it's obvious that Moggi was on top of everything. (or sharing the top, at least).

If you have time, you can find Meani's conversations translated in English, here on this topic, but i don't have time to search for them now.


Oh, and you can find the full investigators report on page 74 in this topic !

Cheers

There is a loophole in european "parlamental" democracies that is that the role of president (the executive that is) is played by the prime minister which is not elected by the people directly. Instead the people choose their representatives in parlament. The president (of the country) who has no real power (or the Queen if you are English) gives the head of the party that won the election the right toform a goverment and that government has to be confirmed by the parlament. Once that happens (as that party holds the majority in parlament which controls the legislature) that party has almost absolute power, and when you look at it it's not too much different from communism. You have an executive go'ment constituted of the most highly positioned members of the ruling party and a parlament controled by that same party. And to draw a comparison to the US system it would be like there are no presidential elections, only the ones for Congress and after whitch the Congress picks the President. Or case b) comparison thats more real in countries not so developed..there is no elections for congress but only for the office of president and after whitch the that Electoral thing that actually elects the president would continue to act as the Congress. So, it's impossible to have the legislature in the hands of one and the executive in the hands of another party. Except maybe in England, I'm not sure about them.

That's sad

Ok now judges....get drunk and be gentle tomorrow