Summer mercato 2009

It's a good point, and I knew someone was going to say something like that.....even though he is not totally our asset but he is co-owned. So if we want him back we'll have to settle on a price with Torino and then use him as a tool to knock down the price of a player. But even going through all that....it is still all besides the main point.

And the main point is that we are not being cynical and critical but that this squad is one dimensional. Meaning we have no players in this squad that can offer something different.
-Imagine we are 0-0 vs Lecce at the 75th minute and we desperately need a goal. We can't crack their defense as our tools aren't working and we are too clogged in the middle. We can make a change...but all our damn subs are just duplicates of the players we already have on the field anyway. So what do you do???

This is the exact scenario that I was talking about when I said we can use him. It's good to have players in your squad that will offer you the luxury to change the formation during a game or even from game to game depending on the opponent we play. We don't have that. We can't change our formation simply because we don't have options. Carlo being a stubborn mule is another reason why we don't see any changes but we'll leave that one for another day.

Originally Posted by nefremo

It's a good point, and I knew someone was going to say something like that.....even though he is not totally our asset but he is co-owned. So if we want him back we'll have to settle on a price with Torino and then use him as a tool to knock down the price of a player. But even going through all that....it is still all besides the main point.

And the main point is that we are not being cynical and critical but that this squad is one dimensional. Meaning we have no players in this squad that can offer something different.
-Imagine we are 0-0 vs Lecce at the 75th minute and we desperately need a goal. We can't crack their defense as our tools aren't working and we are too clogged in the middle. We can make a change...but all our damn subs are just duplicates of the players we already have on the field anyway. So what do you do???

This is the exact scenario that I was talking about when I said we can use him. It's good to have players in your squad that will offer you the luxury to change the formation during a game or even from game to game depending on the opponent we play. We don't have that. We can't change our formation simply because we don't have options. Carlo being a stubborn mule is another reason why we don't see any changes but we'll leave that one for another day.

I'm sorry but if you take Abate just to give him 15 minutes here and there ... what do you think will happen ? If Abate is mentally strong, no problem, but if he is like Gourcuff when he was in Milan, he's going to be useless as he will want to do too many things in few time. Ancelotti probably knows that (and he also probably knows that he won't change the starting formation just for Abate), and it's surely why he said so.

The point of my post is: what makes you think that Abate will perform constantly well when he'll play 15 minutes here and there and so what makes you think he will help us to crack the opponent's defence like in that "Milan 0-0 Lecce 75th minute" example ?

About Abate, if we are only willing to give him a part time role like we gave Serginho, we might as well sell him permanently. Serginho only accepted a small role because he was aging and had low ambitions because of that. Abate, on the other hand, is young and want to at least get a chance to prove himself to be a major star player before having to settle down for a secondary role. As much as Gourcuff might not want to come back, I see even less chance of Abate coming back. After all, if he doesn't want to come back, there isn't anything we can actually do about it.

Originally Posted by GeoTav

I'm sorry but if you take Abate just to give him 15 minutes here and there ... what do you think will happen ? If Abate is mentally strong, no problem, but if he is like Gourcuff when he was in Milan, he's going to be useless as he will want to do too many things in few time. Ancelotti probably knows that (and he also probably knows that he won't change the starting formation just for Abate), and it's surely why he said so.

The point of my post is: what makes you think that Abate will perform constantly well when he'll play 15 minutes here and there and so what makes you think he will help us to crack the opponent's defence like in that "Milan 0-0 Lecce 75th minute" example ?

Geo, in the last paragraph on my post I said that Abate can allow us to change the starting formation every now and then depending on the opponent that we are going to play. So I clearly implied that I don't want Abate back so he can only play 15 minutes when we need a goal. The fact that Carlo won't change the formation is something totally different, and I was just talking about my opinion on Abate's usefulness without thinking about what Carlo will do. If we put Carlo's words in perspective then yes.....we should stay off Abate. But that doesn't mean that i agree with him because like I said....Carlo is as stubborn as a mule and sometimes I feel like we will play some of these teams for 500 minutes with the score still being 0-0 and Carlo STILL won't even attempt to use something different.

As for whether I know he is going to perform well when he is not starting every week.....I don't know that. Maybe he will, maybe he won't and there is no one out there that can possibly know that. Not Carlo, Not me, not you. Even though I can say that players with his characteristics (very quick and fast) are usually very good when they come in from the bench because of their explosiveness.

As for what makes me think that he'll help us crack a defense........let me make myself clear. Abate may not be the answer(guarantee) and I never said that in my post. I just said that he offers a different dimension to our game. A tool that can be used and tried out potentially changing our formation for the last 15/20 minutes of a game like that. Because like I said, right now all we have is duplicate players on the bench and you can make as many changes as you want....our subs still don't have the capabilities to give us a different approach. And when a game is 0-0 at the 75th minute we DO need a different approach as the opponent is obviously comfortable at defending us, expecially when in games like those we are so slow and predictable..we usually end up with 1 or 0 goalscoring opportunities. We need a player that will stay wide and attack the full backs....trying to suck them out wide which will shift the whole defensive line.
Anyhow, I don't want to get in a whole tactical conversation about that as things like these are just simply different ideas of football that sometimes may work and sometimes may not.

I just think that Abate can be a very useful squad player for us and help us next season. The biggest reason why I got into this whole conversation and posted that post was because I wanted to respond to people who agree that we shouldn't have differentiated squad players in our club simply because we don't use certain formations to accommodate them. Like I said....it is ridiculous to have Robben in our squad when we don't normally use wings....but I don't see a problem in having Abate who surely wouldn't complain about being a squad player in Milan, and offer us a different approach when we need it. He already stated that it would be a dream to go back to Milan.

BUT, if Carlo stays with us next season, then I agree with xvr11 and we might as well try to use Abate for something else rather then bring him back and use him once the whole season. Because Carlo is obviously in love with his own ideas, and he wouldn't try anything else even if god came down himself and said: 'Carlo, do this differently next week/or in the last 30 mins and you'll win 3-0'. I thought Carlo doesn't try anything different during a game because he doesn't have the options.......but saying stuff like "Abate will not come because we don't use wide players" makes very little sense to me. Again, if the quote was about Robben (ex) then I would understand, but he was talking about Abate.

I think Nefremo makes good points about Abate. He offers a dimension to our side that we have lacked since Serginho left. Someone argued Serginho barely featured, which to some degree is true, but Serginho was intelligent enough to strengthen his defensive weaknesses, thus allowing Carlo the opportunity to use him defensively.

In my opinion Abate has the quality to be a great squad player at Milan, and if he does follow the path of other wingers in Serie A and add to his defensive skill set, he could become a great purchase. Look at Zambrotta, Serginho and Janku (although not as successful).

Abate also played in 4-3-2-1 as a aM with Italy U21, he can also play as a fullback. If Serginho could so can he. The fact he plays as a pure winger now doesnt mean Abate cant transform his role. EVERY player can interpret different roles in different sistems.

And as a squad player it doesnt necessary eman we will use him once a while for 15min, its means he will be properly rotated with the rest of the squad ( squad is made from 18-20 players that play, not 13 like we do ).

If Juve can play De Ceglie as a LM then so can we play Abate as a fullback now and then. When we play big games of course we'll play our best 11 players that can play at that moment. But we waste players like Kaka', Gattuso, Pirlo, Zambrotta etc. coz we never rotate a bit and never put mixed teams in normal games. Properly mixed, with the right balance, a team that doesnt loose much on quality when some players are rested. Same happened with Yoan this year as Geo Tav says, he played every single game, so the form cant go on forever.

Im sure we cant expect that while this coach is here. When Carlo doesnt love someone he does whatever he can to proove that. Yoan, Abate, $heva ( the "traitoe" sentence in a tv show ).

Originally Posted by nefremo

Geo, in the last paragraph on my post I said that Abate can allow us to change the starting formation every now and then depending on the opponent that we are going to play. So I clearly implied that I don't want Abate back so he can only play 15 minutes when we need a goal. The fact that Carlo won't change the formation is something totally different, and I was just talking about my opinion on Abate's usefulness without thinking about what Carlo will do. If we put Carlo's words in perspective then yes.....we should stay off Abate. But that doesn't mean that i agree with him because like I said....Carlo is as stubborn as a mule and sometimes I feel like we will play some of these teams for 500 minutes with the score still being 0-0 and Carlo STILL won't even attempt to use something different.

As for whether I know he is going to perform well when he is not starting every week.....I don't know that. Maybe he will, maybe he won't and there is no one out there that can possibly know that. Not Carlo, Not me, not you. Even though I can say that players with his characteristics (very quick and fast) are usually very good when they come in from the bench because of their explosiveness.

As for what makes me think that he'll help us crack a defense........let me make myself clear. Abate may not be the answer(guarantee) and I never said that in my post. I just said that he offers a different dimension to our game. A tool that can be used and tried out potentially changing our formation for the last 15/20 minutes of a game like that. Because like I said, right now all we have is duplicate players on the bench and you can make as many changes as you want....our subs still don't have the capabilities to give us a different approach. And when a game is 0-0 at the 75th minute we DO need a different approach as the opponent is obviously comfortable at defending us, expecially when in games like those we are so slow and predictable..we usually end up with 1 or 0 goalscoring opportunities. We need a player that will stay wide and attack the full backs....trying to suck them out wide which will shift the whole defensive line.
Anyhow, I don't want to get in a whole tactical conversation about that as things like these are just simply different ideas of football that sometimes may work and sometimes may not.

I just think that Abate can be a very useful squad player for us and help us next season. The biggest reason why I got into this whole conversation and posted that post was because I wanted to respond to people who agree that we shouldn't have differentiated squad players in our club simply because we don't use certain formations to accommodate them. Like I said....it is ridiculous to have Robben in our squad when we don't normally use wings....but I don't see a problem in having Abate who surely wouldn't complain about being a squad player in Milan, and offer us a different approach when we need it. He already stated that it would be a dream to go back to Milan.

BUT, if Carlo stays with us next season, then I agree with xvr11 and we might as well try to use Abate for something else rather then bring him back and use him once the whole season. Because Carlo is obviously in love with his own ideas, and he wouldn't try anything else even if god came down himself and said: 'Carlo, do this differently next week/or in the last 30 mins and you'll win 3-0'. I thought Carlo doesn't try anything different during a game because he doesn't have the options.......but saying stuff like "Abate will not come because we don't use wide players" makes very little sense to me. Again, if the quote was about Robben (ex) then I would understand, but he was talking about Abate.

Actually, you didn't need to explain again as I understood what you wanted to say in your previous post(s) ...
I just try to take in perspective the fact that Ancelotti will stay and that he probably won't change the formation.

And anyway, if Pato keeps playing very well, if he has Inzaghi in form, Borriello in form or another striker who can help him alongside him, if Kaka' can be back to at least a good form, if some of our players in midfield can run again and perform well (no matter who is in midfield, but anyway, don't forget that the dudes will play to be in the next World Cup, so they're going to suddenly run !! ), we won't have any problem against these so called "small teams".

Then, of course, if some of our key players are again injured, if Pato starts his season in a wrong way like this year, if our midfielders can't run, in this case, Abate can be a useful tool, even with Ancelotti not wanting to change his formation.

Originally Posted by mrki

Abate also played in 4-3-2-1 as a aM with Italy U21, he can also play as a fullback. If Serginho could so can he. The fact he plays as a pure winger now doesnt mean Abate cant transform his role. EVERY player can interpret different roles in different sistems.

Yeah, it's not because he is a winger nowadays that he can't transform his role, but also, it's not because Serginho was able to do it than Abate is able to do it.

Anyway, I don't think that Ancelotti doesn't love these players (except for Shevchenko but I think Ancelotti didn't want him at all and it looked obvious, when he was the only player available with Pato in attack, he prefered using Pato for whole games instead of giving some time to Shevchenko, and personnally, I'm ok with that), saying that Abate could hardly be used in Milan doesn't mean he doesn't like him, that just means:
- like he said, he doesn't think he will be useful in his formations
- implicitely, that also means that he doesn't think that Abate is able to modify the way he plays ... I think Ancelotti knows that players can play other roles, don't forget he said that about Abate after putting Flamini as a RB, a role he never played in his life

Flamini was a fullback at Arsenal for some time. And played as a RB in his first game for Milan in 2nd half. Flamini as a fullback is nothing new.

Atabe also did some games as a fullback before, he is able to do it.

Originally Posted by mrki

Flamini was a fullback at Arsenal for some time. And played as a RB in his first game for Milan in 2nd half. Flamini as a fullback is nothing new.

Atabe also did some games as a fullback before, he is able to do it.

Yes you have right but Flamster is defensive monstrum and Abate somtimes in defence play like pusy(Max destroy him few times)..Ancelotti want team where 9 players play defence we all know that Carlo is adict to defensive duty's!

I always ask my self why Mister in LP season 07/08 against Arsenal on San Siro play 4-2-2-2 whith Pato-Inzaghi upfront :S:S:S: LOL

Originally Posted by mrki

Flamini was a fullback at Arsenal for some time. And played as a RB in his first game for Milan in 2nd half. Flamini as a fullback is nothing new.

Atabe also did some games as a fullback before, he is able to do it.

He played LB in some games of his first or second season in Arsenal.
And do we need someone who is able to play in a position or a killer in that position ?

I think it's an interesting point to make that a player follow in the footsteps of another player. We may argue that a player will always be different than another player. There will never be a player that is exactly the same as another player.

It is more true to argue that players will have a tendency to look like each other than to argue the fact that is is more or less impossible to call a player the exact mirror of another player.

It is hard and difficult to obtain the security that a player will follow directly in the footsteps of a former player, let alone a star or a routined part of the first team. You cannot alone claim that it will be exactly the same. It's impossible. A player will always be different. It will also be a different human.

It's very, very interesting to see Ancelotti repeating past genious steps if it would become a reality that a player would fit in the same role as a previous star.

The move with Serginho was indirectly the most perfected move we've seen in the Milan side under Ancelotti. He was already very good at defending as a left winger even when it was his role to be a very offensive winger. The second he entered as left back we saw a different aspect of his nature as a player. In a tactical view we saw him in a very new position that opened up opportunities and chances not alone for Serginho's play alone but also Milan's play in general.

It is an intelligent and wise idea to dream and aspire of repeating this pattern of thinking into the Milan of the now. We still have the same coach who did this. Therefore we can do the same now. If we want to, if we have the right player but most importantly it will still be incredibly hard to even do it in the first place which was the case with Serginho as well. The truth is that the move from Ancelotti was so dissected, perfectly well thought and seeing that it almost makes it look like something from another galaxy.

And the way it was conducted with peace and tranquillity with a touch of old Italian elegance and Milan family tradition combined with the massively intelligent thoughts that must have undoubtely run through Ancelotti's heart after hours of perfect meditation was one of the brightest and most beautiful and loving experiences in my time of watching football by the fact that it was conduction with such grace and discretion. I cried. I cried a lot. Pure feeling and all of this was basically something that Carlo Ancelotti gave me. And yet many on this forum are ruthlessly and directly strikingly jumping to way to quick conclusions redeeming any idea that's basically running through his head. And that's not all. It strikes me that Carlo Ancelotti has not just made this step. He has made a rain of very simular decisions that's basically given every single one of the Milan family unforgettable memories that blessed us all. There was Stam's positioning in defence next to Nesta. There was Pirlo's improvement and awakening as graceful defensive general that reminded us of Rivera. Sheva's success and the running patterns that created a lot of very important goals that was not fully perfected in his time in Dynamo Kiev. Nesta improved his game as well under us. Cafu was massively improved as well in the sense that he simply played better under the tactics applied by Carlo Ancelotti. Gattuso was instructed perfectly as well to cover up spaces and his passing become more bright. Rui Costa was always a good player and like many of the stars we had under Carlo it is a good point that several of them, many you’ve always like to watch and enjoyed to see play were simply a lot better because Ancelotti motivated them with strength and power that a real man possess.

I love you all. There is simply deep regret and sadness in me and my pure Milan heart that so many Milan fans will simply share the feeling that Ancelotti is not good enough when it is the blank mirror of the truth of what actually happened. He has again and again loved us a lot more than we'll ever like nor understand, given us all smiles, hugs, looks of tranquillity in his innocent eyes in the moments where the Milan destiny was being decided and he was always calm. Many moments have graced our hearts and enriched our souls with perfect feelings of bliss that only a true Milan fan will appreciate. And fully. Maybe even more. All of this and more than our innocent and beautiful hearts and souls will ever understand have graced us all with more than we'll ever understand and maybe never fully appreciate and seize to understand and moments that have also graced our hearts and enriched our souls with perfect feelings of bliss that only a true Milan fan will appreciate.

And here we are in 2009. In a world where it is apparently perfectly all right and uncritiziced to attack and kill Seedorf for playing OK games, Ancelotti for making small mistakes due to the fact that everything is an opportunity and that it is very hard in the first place to see and execute the things on the pitch. And on top of that in a season where we are looking to finish second or third only 10 points behind the leader.

You should listen carefully to your heart if it is not completely wrong to do this after everything you've experienced in your time as a Milan fan as a Milan fan under Carlo Ancelotti and as a fan of football.

Im surprised that noone mentioned a game between Santos and Palmeiras has been played and that Keirisson and Neymar both scored a goal... Neymar is playing at some serious level in important games for such a young player.

Originally Posted by mrki

Im surprised that noone mentioned a game between Santos and Palmeiras has been played and that Keirisson and Neymar both scored a goal... Neymar is playing at some serious level in important games for such a young player.

Did you watch that game ?
Mystik mentionned it few pages ago, he said he watched a little but didn't see anything special from these players in that game.

Dude, your love for Carlo is like his love for Seedorf.

First of all great post, really enjoying reading it.

Just a few comments, had you actually seen Rui Costa played at Viola? B/c if you did, you would not say that Carlo got Rui Costa to play better. Rui Costa at Viola was probably the best Attk Mid beside ZZ. And he never played like that in Milan with a few exception.

I love Serginho and I think he really gave us a different dimension whenever he played, but he was never close to being the player that you are making him to be. On top of that, we signed him as a LB and not a Left winger. So Carlo really had not done anything special here.

The only player I gave Carlo credit in developing is using Pirlo as a midfielder.

DO you know how many players who Carlo destoryed in Milan? Abbiati(until this year, thanks God for that), Rivaldo(he was doing well before he came), Gilardino, Gourcuff, Coloccini, M. Laursen, Bobo, Pato if it was not for Borreillo's injury, and Flamini if it was not for Gattuso's injury.

Alot of us here blame Galli and Berlu for not signing the players Carlo wants or signing WC players. But look at a few yrs back when Milan had everything and all its players at their prime. We lost a semi-final, 4-0 in the second leg after leading 4-1 from the first leg, but we did managed to win the league(that was good). And a Final lost after we led the game 3-0 while not coming close to winning the league. We also came in fifth last year behind two teams that played in Series B the year before.

If you still think that had nothing to do with Carlo and accept those results as good results, thats great.

What bothers me the most about your post is that you are actually happy that we could finish 2nd and only within 10 pts of INTER!!!! We are Milan, one of the most historic clubs in Football history, when had we become satisfy with 2nd place and 10 pts behind the leader without CL football.

I have never been a fan of Carlo and I was impressed with his winning way for us, but things always will have a beginning follow by an end. Quite frankly, I think Carlo's end should have been a few yrs ago when he blew the CL final against Pool as thats the biggest defeat in football history.

It is time for him to leave and to be honest, he might be remember as someone who helped Milan with 2 CL titles and 1 Series A title, but he will be better remember by someone who lost a CL final after leading 3-0 at half-time.