hwmook

Kui · 10-07-2006, 10:33

anytime Tas....

Kui · 10-07-2006, 10:54

only readers and no posters. come one my rossoneri. en garde!

hwmook · 10-07-2006, 11:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tony 29

Scudettos are another story....
Noone should get the scudetto's if they are taken from Juve.
If Juve cheated, then the question we need to ask ourselves is : Who were the cheated teams ?
Can anyone prove that because of Moggi's influence, Inter didn't lose 6 points in head to head duels with Juve, and aditional 20 points because Moggi was apointing refs on Inter matches, so those refs influenced the results and damaged Inter ?
Maybe Fiorentina lost 40 points because of Moggi, maybe Milan lost 0 points because of Moggi and maybe they lost 20.
And what about the Uefa Cup fight? Palermo with 52 points will play in UEFA, while Livorno with 49 points won't !!! If there was manipulation with results, how can we know that Moggi didn't make Livorno lose 4 more points than Palermo ?

If they prove that Moggi was making all these things happening, they should first find out which were the aranged matches, so they can make the real standings, and then give the scudettos and CL/UEFA spots to the teams.
That's impossibile imo, and that's why i believe that , if taken from Juve, the scudetto's should be given to noone !

And also, don't forget Meani's involvement. If it wasn't for him asking and getting refs, then Fiorentina and Chievo may have had +3 points, and Udinese maybe wouldn't have played in Champions league last season !!!

like what our great maldini have said, we don't want anything that somebody else have celebrated for nor tinted with so much doubt. juve can be stripped and just leave it as that.

Vadim · 10-07-2006, 11:04

I agree, I woulldn't want just being handed the Scudetto. Juve have already celebrated it. The moment of clinching the Scudetto and the celebreations that follow are some of the best moments for a fan and player. Just being handed the Scudetto would not be the same.

Kui · 10-07-2006, 11:14

Thanks hwmook and Vadim for posting.

Now that is not what the sentiment was like when this was on page 1 of this thread. I'd hope you guys recognize this. Secondly besides Fan#1... Berlu, many others were coveting these titles. I'm glad you guys came out and said what you've just said.

Frankly... I think we would have a better chance winning scudetti next year even with Juve cheating than winning it if we get either a demotion or points deduction.

hwmook · 10-07-2006, 11:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vadim

I agree, I woulldn't want just being handed the Scudetto. Juve have already celebrated it. The moment of clinching the Scudetto and the celebreations that follow are some of the best moments for a fan and player. Just being handed the Scudetto would not be the same.

yup, the day after the winning match would alway be a nice day. getting the 2 Scudettos now just doesn't have this kind of feeling anymore. i don't want the Scudettos but i want juve to be punished.

Kui · 10-07-2006, 11:23

You know what is very disturbing too??? The speed at which the trial is moving. I mean look... even for Juve, the biggest scandal in football is all wrapped up in a matter of months? Stuff like this should actually take at least a year... just for the trial! There has been no time for parties accused to get depositions to help their defense and or to scrutinize the States evidence against them. Isnt it odd people?

Tas · 10-07-2006, 11:32

Wasn't the forum down all day long? I couldn't load it. if it is a sporting tribunal maybe a good idea would be to put up as evidence videos of the refs, the linesman etc. actually cheating as all of the games were fillmed and to compare that to what the states case is.

And Galliani and Meani are really silly in not having a defence. saying i didn't do it when you're on tape is not good enough.

Kui · 10-07-2006, 11:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by hwmook

yup, the day after the winning match would alway be a nice day. getting the 2 Scudettos now just doesn't have this kind of feeling anymore. i don't want the Scudettos but i want juve to be punished.

Ok... good. You and Vadim have been the very few who have said this. At least I know you're not a covetor. Now do you trust the Italian justice system? I ask because whether we indeed cheated or not wasnt my point. What was always my concern is "where the end of the road will take us?". Right now we are not on the right track. My point was we the fans and the club were handling this scandal publicly in the wrong way to which it facilitated and moved us on to this messy track. All I see now is us doing the backpeddling when we shouldnt have dove in, in the first place.

So while you were ashamed of me and I ready to tear a new a$$hole into you mook, I'm glad we are finding some common ground.

Kui · 10-07-2006, 11:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tas

Wasn't the forum down all day long? I couldn't load it. if it is a sporting tribunal maybe a good idea would be to put up as evidence videos of the refs, the linesman etc. actually cheating as all of the games were fillmed and to compare that to what the states case is.

And Galliani and Meani are really silly in not having a defence. saying i didn't do it when you're on tape is not good enough.

That's going to be a hard sell Tas. Errors in officiating happen in every game in every league in every football living world in this universe. That kind of evidence can easily be dismissed.

Kui · 10-07-2006, 11:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tas

Wasn't the forum down all day long? I couldn't load it.

No I've been on since the last time you logged on. One moment you were here and the next you disappeared.

Tas · 10-07-2006, 12:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kui

No I've been on since the last time you logged on. One moment you were here and the next you disappeared.

Yes and ever since that moment I couldnt connect till I finally gave up - a terrible experience. It happened to me before a few times.

Anyway....it wasn't all that nice to linch Juve now that we are in the same mess as they are but if you look at it what Milanisti did back then isn't too different from other clubs fans reaction. (except that noone called for the Scudetti - but noone else was 2nd). I could maintain that someone had knowledge that a Juve system existed and that because of that our policy and/or system of play had changed. But if we had used the system to help us that is inexcusable.

Finally, what did the Milan lawyers say in to defend Milan against the acusations?

Tony 29 · 10-07-2006, 12:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by hwmook

like what our great maldini have said, we don't want anything that somebody else have celebrated for nor tinted with so much doubt. juve can be stripped and just leave it as that.

Not only Maldini, but Gilardino, Nesta and Gattuso also said it.
Even more,Caffu and Maldini (or Nesta, i'm not sure) admitted that Juventus really deserved 2005/06 scudetto, because they were the best this season.
We can now say that Juve cheated and that's why Juve was so superior in first 2/3 of the season, but if you remember, Juve was really superior on the field, and not off the field. I don't think the refs were the ones who played some great matches against Roma,Inter, Fiorentina...but those were Juventus' players who were outplaying their opponents. The only time Juve wasn't superior (in first 20-25 rounds) and got outplayed was at San Siro against Milan, everything else was very clean , imo !!!

About asking for the scudetti..... Moratti is a real joke. Juve may have cheated, and that's why Juve won the last 2 scudetti's. Inter asks for the scudetti because they were the best out of the "clean" teams ? it's a big big laugh for me. Even if the teams above you cheated and you didn't, your team didn't win the scudetto, so how can you ask for it ? How can u ask for something that you didn't win, even if the other teams cheated? Because, if Juve really cheated, then it's very possibille that everything in the final standings would have been different, and maybe Inter wouldn't have been 3rd, but they'd have been 4th or 5th or 6th !
The same goes for Berlusconi !

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kui

Thanks hwmook and Vadim for posting.

Now that is not what the sentiment was like when this was on page 1 of this thread

Actually Kui, i can assure you that some MM members ( dunno if Vadim and hwmook were among them) were saying that they don't want the scudetto won like this, since the very first pages of this topic !

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kui

You know what is very disturbing too??? The speed at which the trial is moving

Well Kui, i think the investigators, prosecutors and judges are also in very delicate situation.
Like you said, it should normally take a year, maybe even years, to give the final verdict about such a delicate matter as this one.
But what if Juventus is found guilty after that year ? What should they do with the season 2006/07 in which Juve will participate because , before the final verdict is given, Juve is not guilty yet ?
And looking at it from the other side...what if Juve is now proclaimed guilty, without giving time to defense to defend the team, and if the trials would have lasted for 1 year, Juventus would have actually get out clean ? Then Juve will spend a season in B, and they were never supposed to play there at first place !!!!

But since scenario number 1 won't happen, and scenario number 2 is happening, then i must agree with you that this is very odd ! It all looks like one big farce !!

Tony 29 · 10-07-2006, 12:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tas

Yes and ever since that moment I couldnt connect till I finally gave up - a terrible experience. It happened to me before a few times.

Yes, i know what you mean. It used to happen to me all the time.It was taking 20-30 attempts for me to open MM.
But it's ok in last 2 weeks.
It must be something with our net connection !

Tas · 10-07-2006, 12:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tony 29

The only time Juve wasn't superior (in first 20-25 rounds) and got outplayed was at San Siro against Milan, everything else was very clean , imo !!!

Except for the Juve - Milan game at the Delle Alpi, where the ref was clearly biased towards Juve

OK, you are right we can't ask for the Scudetti no more that some one can ask for a CL spot they missed, but one could aply the reasoning that the top four still would've been the same, only in different order.

The speedy trial? When you look at it, there isn't all that much evidence, just some few hunderd pages of intercepts which the judges will deciede how to interpret and that's it. Are you saying nobody had a chance to present their defences? It should've been constitutional and everybody should have a chance to defend themselves, do you think this was not the case?

10-07-2006, 10:33	#1456
Kui Registered User Join Date: 05 1999 Location: I ke one a Kaku'ihewa Fave Players: Roby Donadoni, Chico Evani, Franco Baresi	anytime Tas.... __________________ The sure provisions of my lord, Attend me to all my days. O may thine house be mine abode, And all my works be praise. There would I find a settled rest, Where other go and come; No more a stranger nor a guest, But like a child at home. My Shepherd will... KZION Radio

10-07-2006, 10:54	#1457
Kui Registered User Join Date: 05 1999 Location: I ke one a Kaku'ihewa Fave Players: Roby Donadoni, Chico Evani, Franco Baresi	only readers and no posters. come one my rossoneri. en garde! __________________ The sure provisions of my lord, Attend me to all my days. O may thine house be mine abode, And all my works be praise. There would I find a settled rest, Where other go and come; No more a stranger nor a guest, But like a child at home. My Shepherd will... KZION Radio

10-07-2006, 11:14	#1460
Kui Registered User Join Date: 05 1999 Location: I ke one a Kaku'ihewa Fave Players: Roby Donadoni, Chico Evani, Franco Baresi	Thanks hwmook and Vadim for posting. Now that is not what the sentiment was like when this was on page 1 of this thread. I'd hope you guys recognize this. Secondly besides Fan#1... Berlu, many others were coveting these titles. I'm glad you guys came out and said what you've just said. Frankly... I think we would have a better chance winning scudetti next year even with Juve cheating than winning it if we get either a demotion or points deduction. __________________ The sure provisions of my lord, Attend me to all my days. O may thine house be mine abode, And all my works be praise. There would I find a settled rest, Where other go and come; No more a stranger nor a guest, But like a child at home. My Shepherd will... KZION Radio

10-07-2006, 11:23	#1462
Kui Registered User Join Date: 05 1999 Location: I ke one a Kaku'ihewa Fave Players: Roby Donadoni, Chico Evani, Franco Baresi	You know what is very disturbing too??? The speed at which the trial is moving. I mean look... even for Juve, the biggest scandal in football is all wrapped up in a matter of months? Stuff like this should actually take at least a year... just for the trial! There has been no time for parties accused to get depositions to help their defense and or to scrutinize the States evidence against them. Isnt it odd people? __________________ The sure provisions of my lord, Attend me to all my days. O may thine house be mine abode, And all my works be praise. There would I find a settled rest, Where other go and come; No more a stranger nor a guest, But like a child at home. My Shepherd will... KZION Radio

10-07-2006, 11:04	#1459
Vadim Moderator Join Date: 11 2005 Location: Chicago Fave Players: San Paolo	I agree, I woulldn't want just being handed the Scudetto. Juve have already celebrated it. The moment of clinching the Scudetto and the celebreations that follow are some of the best moments for a fan and player. Just being handed the Scudetto would not be the same.

10-07-2006, 11:32	#1463
Tas Registered User Join Date: 06 2006	Wasn't the forum down all day long? I couldn't load it. if it is a sporting tribunal maybe a good idea would be to put up as evidence videos of the refs, the linesman etc. actually cheating as all of the games were fillmed and to compare that to what the states case is. And Galliani and Meani are really silly in not having a defence. saying i didn't do it when you're on tape is not good enough.