Winter Mercato

Could be Tony..we dont share scouts, but rumors are bound to fly, and I am sure the coaching cadre of each club kno each other...so if one hears that another is going to FC Zurich to watch and evaluate a player, then, dont u think the other will fly out to see just what/whom this guy is going to see?

Plus, it is easier, and prints more copies (of gets more hits) if Milan, Inter or Juve are mentioned in connection with a player.

For example, an artice that says Dzemaili targeted by top Italian teams, wont get my mouseclick...but say: Milan after Dzemaili...and I am clicking away like crazy....

Originally Posted by ZvonimirVukic

he was tipped to be one of the stars in swiss team on world cup but he didnt get chance to prove himself

Seeing how Gourcuff hardly gets a look in anymore, i doubt he'd get a chance with us either.

I want to know who it is who gets to classify these players as "the next big thing". I know it's to generate interest, but it just gets on my nerves. In the papers today Arsenal are supposed to be close to signing the new French whizz-kid striker ... tomorrow there'll be another new talent, it gets so tiresome.

I think we should contract Arsene Wenger to give us a tip about the new emerging youngsters in the market. He is pretty good at it. Arsenal has so many good players who are very young and there is a good chance that most of them will become stars. Its not even like they are a headless team just like anyone would suppose a very young team to be.

Originally Posted by Jim_UK

Seeing how Gourcuff hardly gets a look in anymore, i doubt he'd get a chance with us either.

Kaka too was running this risk, until his scorcher of a goal on his debut...then he slowly eclipsed Rui...

Gourcuff will get his chances...its just that his impact wasnt as massive as Kaka´s.

Plus, Carlo wasnt really (IMO) a fan of Rui Costa, as he seems to be of Clarence...and its Clarence that is keeping Gourcuff on the bench...why? Only Carlo knows.

This guy, who the article on channel4.com indicates may be loaned out right away....will probably get an opportunity also, when we have Coppa Italia matches to play, etc...he most certainly wont go on loan if he is evaluated in training, and proves an exceptional talent...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E6Q5UqshCGg


something taped for joga bonito

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b8k1K...elated&search=

his first goal


i`am talking about blerim dzemaili....sorry

Originally Posted by Warro Bantan

Gourcuff will get his chances...its just that his impact wasnt as massive as Kaka´s.

Plus, Carlo wasnt really (IMO) a fan of Rui Costa, as he seems to be of Clarence...and its Clarence that is keeping Gourcuff on the bench...why? Only Carlo knows.

This guy, who the article on channel4.com indicates may be loaned out right away....will probably get an opportunity also, when we have Coppa Italia matches to play, etc...he most certainly wont go on loan if he is evaluated in training, and proves an exceptional talent...

But that's the point as we both well know Warro my friend, Gourcuff's first real game was the CL tie v AEK Athens where he stole the show and the paper's raved about him for a while afterwards. You'd think he'd have had more chances to show his potential, but he hasn't and not even in Coppa Italia games. It's criminal that he's not used more.

Originally Posted by kris

I never compared him with Inzaghi. clearly there is not much between them in playing time and neither have proved themself as starters, which kinds of explains why neither is a sure starter and why we just used one striker in a couple of games. Your argument was that Oliveira hadn't got a chance to prove himself, but these figures shows more than 12 complete games, so clearly he have got his chances.



Udinese is a middle placed team that keep their economy afloat by staying in serie A and selling players for big bucks to the bigger teams. they don't havemoney to replace a player that don't perform directly so they will have to let him play into form or at least get enough playing time to show some sort of value. since they are a middle placed team they don't have much demands, neither from fans nor managment, as long as they are not relegated which seldom is a problem. If Milan on the other hand suddenly loses a game there is just created several threads here about player sucking, manager needed to be booted and about all our problems. the difference is HUGE.

ps. there does not exist any clubs in Italy that is "desperate" for the UEFA cup. In fact the teams qualifying hardly cares about it, it brings little to no income, is negative for their serie A campaign and isn't prestigious in any way.



This is simply not true. The difference in football ain't so big that you can have one or worse, several non-performers saved by one player. Unless that player is a genious scoring every game. For sure that can be the case in as much as 2/3 games, but not winning every third game is clearly not good enough for a club our stature.

Have you followed Milan at all? I mean just look at all the players we bought and replaced because they didn't perform and compare that to smaller teams without our resources. We give a new player some chances during a season, if he fail he is replaced. Udinese or Sampdoria can't afford to do that, they can't keep on buying new players until someone succed, they have to do with what they have.



for them winning=good, for us winning=must. Sure in a shorter perspective we could be without one of our best players, but then would have to play other players who are more sure to perform. Think now instead if we play the non-performing Oliveira and Inzaghi with Seedorf behind them, would you as a fan feel confident that we would score?

Still what you say here goes partly in counter to what you said before. clearly our squad depth is what means we don't have to give chances to someone like Oliveira. Because our squad depth means that we have others who is in better form to use. It doesn't mean that we have others to play instead of the ones performing, for only the ones performing is important when you MUST WIN.



Your logic is twisted. undoubtedly more players means more options which in turn means that the less you perform, the more players in front of you. Now if he instead was the replacment for Iaquinta, then he would have who as competition? Youth players, the lack of squad depth there would mean they would have to play him and possibly give the youngsters a chance.



I asked if the team looked better with him on the pitch, not to compare him with Inzaghi/Gila playing together. Several games we have played with only Gila. As for my question I am talking about what he contributed to the team so far and from what I seen that is very little. He takes shots over goal all the time and is very selfish so far.



Oh, he runs with the ball alright, problem is that we doesn't pass his teammates. but I agree that he is a better fit to Gila than Inzaghi, I never said anything apart from that. I been saying he have been given plenty of chance to prove himself and have this far failed in that.



why would 4-5 games show you this? considering he have already played more than that with us? thats what I am saying, he have already had that chance, sure we can give him more chances, but now with Ronaldo here I would rather give Ronaldo the chance first. Oliveira have to take his chances when they come up again, clearly just letting him play at this time would be a gamble.

ps. Similar goal record in serie A compared to Inzaghi? If that was what you meant then you ignored every season but this one.

Why shouldnt we compare RO to Inzaghi? Who should be compare him to then, Boriello? He was not bought to play as a lone striker, he was bought to play as a second striker with a target man (Inzaghi or Gila) up front. Inzaghi has had by far more starts than RO has, and has performed more or less at the same level. So, why bench RO? Secondly, the cumulative number of minutes someone has played gives an idea of how much football he has played overall, but his actual contribution cannot be quantified. If you play football, you will know that a couple of minutes here and there as a substitute, no matter how many you get in total, is no way to establish how good a player is. The only way is to start him and play him regularly for 90 minutes. Let him get in the rhythm of the game and then we can see what he brings to the team.

I think the crux of our discussion is that you feel that we have given RO enough time to prove himself and he has failed, whereas I believe that he has not been given enough time to prove himself. Dont forget that he has come off injury and has been suffering personal problems off the pitch. The only way to get him to overcome these issues is to have confidence in him and to keep playing him, otherwise it's a vicious cycle---the coach has no confidence in him, doesnt play him, his confidence levels/match fitness drops, he gets a call as a sub, doesnt play well, the coach loses confidence, etc....Do you play football, Kris? If you do, I think you will understand this.

Lastly, I follow Milan closely, that is why i know our philosophy and that is why I am able to admit when we have double standards in our team. Carlo clearly has his "favourites" and insist on playing them even when they are off form. If you take a poll of the majority of people here, they will prefer to start Gourcuff instead of Seedorf, yet Carlo sticks with Clarence. Same thing for most of last couple of seasons---Rui Costa plays a magnificent game, and then spends the next one warming the bench. Players like Vogel, Dhorasoo did not flop at Milan, they were simply not given enough chances to prove themselves. In fact, I think both already proved themselves to be excellent acquisitions, but for some reason, the coach never picked them. I feel a similar thing is happening with RO. It seems he has not won Carlo's confidence, and the more I see Pippo starting alongside Gila, the more I wonder what Carlo is thinking. THe bottom line is this, if we insist on investing in players, we have to have enough capacity, guts, and courage to play them until we can get a proper assesment. FOr me, half a season with 700 odd minutes, most of those as a substitute, coming off a knee injury, and suffering from personal/family problems---is not enough to objectively evaluate a player and confine him to the bench for the rest of the season.

Originally Posted by rt9

Why shouldnt we compare RO to Inzaghi? Who should be compare him to then, Boriello?

We should compare him with any competition and how he helps or not helps the team. Inzaghi is a valid one, but not exactly what we talked about.

Originally Posted by rt9

He was not bought to play as a lone striker, he was bought to play as a second striker with a target man (Inzaghi or Gila) up front.

This is highly doubtable. He was bought as a replacment to Shevchenko which was a first striker himself. The first alternative to buying him was Ronaldo which also is a first striker. But maybe most important of all, Oliveira have played as a "9" or first striker both in Brazil and in Real Betis. all this points towards him being bought for something like that and not a support striker which he never really played before he came to us.

Originally Posted by rt9

Inzaghi has had by far more starts than RO has, and has performed more or less at the same level.

with "buy far" we could think that there is a big difference, checking the numbers you presented yourself that is not the case. They played close to as much with Inzaghi only having had some 25% more playing time and featured in two games more.

Originally Posted by rt9

So, why bench RO?

Now you turned the question. The question would be "why play him until he performs if there are better options"? That was what you wanted. As to still answer the question, he should be benched when there is better performers around, at present point though performers in our teams is hard to find.

Originally Posted by rt9

Secondly, the cumulative number of minutes someone has played gives an idea of how much football he has played overall, but his actual contribution cannot be quantified. If you play football, you will know that a couple of minutes here and there as a substitute, no matter how many you get in total, is no way to establish how good a player is. The only way is to start him and play him regularly for 90 minutes. Let him get in the rhythm of the game and then we can see what he brings to the team.

That is hardly the only way to establish what a player can do. In fact, I would say that a player who can only perform if he is played all the time is only half a player. We can't say "Okay, now it is test Oliveira month, lets play him every game the whole games to establish if he is a good player or not". I am pretty sure we could established what he can do by wathing him before Milan to begin with. Not to forget trainings and so on.

Originally Posted by rt9

I think the crux of our discussion is that you feel that we have given RO enough time to prove himself and he has failed, whereas I believe that he has not been given enough time to prove himself.

I said before that indeed he can turn out to prove himself if we keep him on for the rest of the year and maybe even next year. What I am saying is that we can't make an effort to let him prove himself when we have other proven ones to play instead. There is no space for us to experiment, none who will give the team slack if it fails.

Originally Posted by rt9

Dont forget that he has come off injury and has been suffering personal problems off the pitch. The only way to get him to overcome these issues is to have confidence in him and to keep playing him, otherwise it's a vicious cycle --- the coach has no confidence in him, doesnt play him, his confidence levels/match fitness drops, he gets a call as a sub, doesnt play well, the coach loses confidence, etc....

Milan ain't a recovery home for players. If they can't cut it then they can go on loan, keep on fighting or leave.

Originally Posted by rt9

Do you play football, Kris? If you do, I think you will understand this.

I do not play for Milan, however much I would wish to.

Originally Posted by rt9

Lastly, I follow Milan closely, that is why i know our philosophy and that is why I am able to admit when we have double standards in our team. Carlo clearly has his "favourites" and insist on playing them even when they are off form. If you take a poll of the majority of people here, they will prefer to start Gourcuff instead of Seedorf, yet Carlo sticks with Clarence.

True, which is not about our club having couble standards. Ever coach in the history of football have had favourites, in some cases players none of the fans wanted to see play.

Originally Posted by rt9

Same thing for most of last couple of seasons---Rui Costa plays a magnificent game, and then spends the next one warming the bench. Players like Vogel, Dhorasoo did not flop at Milan, they were simply not given enough chances to prove themselves. In fact, I think both already proved themselves to be excellent acquisitions, but for some reason, the coach never picked them. I feel a similar thing is happening with RO.

He have been played with much more regularity than Vogel and Dhorasoo. Vogel and Dhorasoo only got to play due to injuries or in the Copa Italia. RO have been used regulary in games with different partners.

Originally Posted by rt9

It seems he has not won Carlo's confidence, and the more I see Pippo starting alongside Gila, the more I wonder what Carlo is thinking. THe bottom line is this, if we insist on investing in players,

Inzaghi was a bigger investment than RO and he have proved more with our club. clearly by this logic he should be the one playing.

Originally Posted by rt9

we have to have enough capacity, guts, and courage to play them until we can get a proper assesment. FOr me, half a season with 700 odd minutes, most of those as a substitute, coming off a knee injury, and suffering from personal/family problems---is not enough to objectively evaluate a player and confine him to the bench for the rest of the season.

IF he will be confined to the bench then that would be because Gilardino and Ronaldo is simply better players than him. If he is not then what is the problem?

1) Really? Shevchenko played as a "first" striker? Get your facts straight. Shevchenko has always been a second striker. In all of Ancelotti's years at Milan, Sheva has always had a strike partner/target man. In 2003, it was Inzaghi, 2004, also Inzaghi and JDT, 2005 it was Crespo, 2006 Gila/Vieri. Sheva did not play as target man. He would drop to the flanks, collect the ball, make assists, and create opportunities for the team. That was why he was so valuable and that is also why he is difficult to replace. I will reverse your own question to you: Do you watch Milan?

2) As I've said before. The number of minutes does not tell the full story. If you want a player to adapt to the team and the rhythm of the game, then you have to start him from the first minute, not bring him on in the 80th minute. Inzaghi has had more starts than RO and has not produced anything spectacular. So why not give RO more starts?

3) Exactly, if there are no forwards (probably with the exception of Gila) clearly shining and commanding a first team place, then why not take the opportunity to play the new guy more often? It's not like he's scoring own goals is he?

4) It is obvious that you lack a proper understanding of football. A player who can only perform if he's played all the time is a "half player"? What are you talking about? This is football, not AMerican football, where you can bring on special teams. A player, any player needs to play consistently to establish his rhythm and show any type of form. If you start bringing on Ronaldinho at the 80th minute of every game, he's not going to be able to do anything. But play him from the start, let him get used to the rhythm of the game, the defence, and let him get his confidence and he will start performing. I thought it was common sense to all who play football.

5) Of course Milan are not a recovery home for players. But if you buy players and dont give them a proper chance to prove themselves, then we end up losing a top player to another team. Remember Vieira, Davids, Baggio? Look at INter with Pirlo, Seedorf? These are top players, who for one reason or another were not given enough chances to prove their worth. And they go on to prove themselves as a player elsewhere. All I am asking for is for us to give our new signings a proper chance. I'd hate to see RO go to Madrid and start banging in goals after a couple of months. Does that make Milan a recovery home? I think it makes us a football club.

6) If Gila and Ronaldo are the best striking duo for Milan, then excellent. RO should accept his place on the bench. BUt that is the future, and I am not commenting about the future. I am comparing Gila/inzaghi to Gila/RO and wondering why Carlo insists on leaving RO on the bench.

7) Your arrogance is quite astounding. My initial posts make no reference to you, yet you reply with one lined smart arse comments. From the last couple of posts, I have realized that you know much less than you appear to. You can reply to me if you want, but this post will the last one that I will waste any time replying to you.

calm down,calm down...

Originally Posted by rt9

1) Really? Shevchenko played as a "first" striker? Get your facts straight. Shevchenko has always been a second striker. In all of Ancelotti's years at Milan, Sheva has always had a strike partner/target man.

Whether you have a partner doesn't make you a second striker. That is more due to the role on the field. Strangly enough you managed to backtrack within two sentences here above. first you claim he was "always a second striker" then you mention that he was in Ancelotti's years in Milan. I can give you the whole story. In Dynamo Kiev he was a first striker with Rebrov behind him, when he came to Milan he played either as a wing-striker (besides Bierhoff) or first striker (when Bierhoff didn't play) or alternative as normal striker when we played with a playmaker (Boban). Since then he have had many partners and with differing roles, most of them more of the first striker nature, even if he tracked back a bit more last two years.

Originally Posted by rt9

In 2003, it was Inzaghi, 2004, also Inzaghi and JDT,

He didn't play many games with Inzaghi in 2002/03. In 03/04 he had plenty of games with Inzaghi though, he didn't play support though and his partnership with Inzaghi never really worked well.

Originally Posted by rt9

2005 it was Crespo, 2006 Gila/Vieri.

He also did not have many games with Crespo, one of them was mostly injuried.

Originally Posted by rt9

Sheva did not play as target man.

Pretty much the only target man we had since Bierhoff is Gilardino, Inzaghi and Crespo are not target men. Nor was Rivaldo and JDT.

Originally Posted by rt9

He would drop to the flanks, collect the ball, make assists, and create opportunities for the team. That was why he was so valuable and that is also why he is difficult to replace.

He was valuable because he was a great player.

Originally Posted by rt9

I will reverse your own question to you: Do you watch Milan?

yes.

Originally Posted by rt9

2) As I've said before. The number of minutes does not tell the full story. If you want a player to adapt to the team and the rhythm of the game, then you have to start him from the first minute, not bring him on in the 80th minute.

the amount of games he came on in the 80 minute is very few, not much to talk about really, you make it look like that is all he got.

Originally Posted by rt9

Inzaghi has had more starts than RO and has not produced anything spectacular. So why not give RO more starts?

They have had about the same as said and have produced about the same too. I think I will forward this question to Ronaldo. But if you insist on having this a Inzaghi/Oliveira issue then I could mentioned that we know what Inzaghi can do since he have proved that before with us, Oliveira have not done that.

Originally Posted by rt9

3) Exactly, if there are no forwards (probably with the exception of Gila) clearly shining and commanding a first team place, then why not take the opportunity to play the new guy more often? It's not like he's scoring own goals is he?

Its a 50/50 if there are two players with about the same contribution, I think that was what I said all the time. You been talking about 5 games 90 minute streaks which is another matter. I am pretty sure there are more than 2 players fighting for a partnership with Gila though. also I am not in favour of always playing Gila either, the one performing should play.

Originally Posted by rt9

4) It is obvious that you lack a proper understanding of football.

I take this is tripe.

Originally Posted by rt9

A player who can only perform if he's played all the time is a "half player"? What are you talking about?

Of course he is, a class player shouldn't need to be pampered too, played just the amount of minutes he wants and so on to perform. Of course a not ideal situation will translate to player not performing ideally all the time, but if he have to have ideal circumstances to perform then he is half a player.

Originally Posted by rt9

This is football, not AMerican football, where you can bring on special teams. A player, any player needs to play consistently to establish his rhythm and show any type of form.

Not any player, a lot of class players can show their stuff in whatever minutes they get. some better than others. JDT played less than Oliveira and he banged in goals.

Originally Posted by rt9

If you start bringing on Ronaldinho at the 80th minute of every game, he's not going to be able to do anything.

Highly doubtabke. If the circumstances are right he may show a lot of stuff. but again you take out this dubious "80th minute" like that is all Oliveira got. In fact the first time Oliveira got to play for us was coming on in the second half and that ended up his best performance this far...

Originally Posted by rt9

But play him from the start, let him get used to the rhythm of the game, the defence, and let him get his confidence and he will start performing. I thought it was common sense to all who play football.

He have played several games from the start. I must now ask if you have trouble with reading comprehension, I never said that it is not better for a player to have ideal circumstances or that it is better for him personally to play whole games. I can't tell from where you got that. But I am not someone pampering for the "save Oliveira" campaign, I am for the "Want to see the best Milan" campaign. Players should play by merit for us.

Originally Posted by rt9

5) Of course Milan are not a recovery home for players.

good to see we agree, now what are we discussing?

Originally Posted by rt9

But if you buy players and dont give them a proper chance to prove themselves, then we end up losing a top player to another team.

or e kick them out because they where not good enough.

[quote=rt9] Remember Vieira, Davids, Baggio?

Vieira = Youth player that we made a profit on and he wanted to leave to the French colony. Nothing to do with not giving him a chance from what I saw.
Davids = He played a lot and I can't see why we could claim he didn't get a chance. most talk about him leaving seemed to be more about himbeing a douchebag.
Baggio = Played a lot the first season, then he met Capello which neither him nor me likes. He was kicked out by Capello.

Originally Posted by rt9

Look at INter with Pirlo, Seedorf?

Pirlo have been underplayed by every coach until Ancelotti. Seedorf played a majority of games from start for Inter, especially his first year.

Originally Posted by rt9

These are top players, who for one reason or another were not given enough chances to prove their worth.

and those reasons have very little to do with Oliveira in most cases.

Originally Posted by rt9

And they go on to prove themselves as a player elsewhere.

good for them, I prefer if players prove themselves for Milan though. Oliveira still have a chance and he better take it.

Originally Posted by rt9

All I am asking for is for us to give our new signings a proper chance.

I more got the impression you want them (read: Oliveira) to get more chances than they deserve. Currently I believe it is up to Ronaldo whether Oliveira will get few or plenty of more chances this season. I wouldn't be unhappy if he got few, because that would mean Ronaldo/Gilardino would click.

Originally Posted by rt9

I'd hate to see RO go to Madrid and start banging in goals after a couple of months.

Things like that suck. Of course he could as well just falter away in the world of football, something we are not few of examples of.

Originally Posted by rt9

Does that make Milan a recovery home? I think it makes us a football club.

I can confirm we are a football club and not a recovery home.

Originally Posted by rt9

6) If Gila and Ronaldo are the best striking duo for Milan, then excellent. RO should accept his place on the bench. BUt that is the future, and I am not commenting about the future. I am comparing Gila/inzaghi to Gila/RO and wondering why Carlo insists on leaving RO on the bench.

Have we not gone trough this, there are few minutes between them and as you said yourself Oliveira just recovered from a long injury when we got him. Inzaghi/Oliveira played and started a couple of games too...

Originally Posted by rt9

7) Your arrogance is quite astounding. My initial posts make no reference to you, yet you reply with one lined smart arse comments. From the last couple of posts, I have realized that you know much less than you appear to. You can reply to me if you want, but this post will the last one that I will waste any time replying to you.

I recognise this, I seen it on Internet forums many times. Someone claims something, get rebutted and then runs away saying he won't post again. I am sorry if I am not as humble as you, thats life I guess.

I could just ask this simple question: "Why should Oliveira get to play several 90 minute games in a row instead of someone else?" Since you won't post again I can just go by what you said this far and I can say I don't agree he deserve that. Less so with Ronaldo here, would create a very strange precedent if he doesn't make wonder in those games...

Originally Posted by kris

This is highly doubtable. He was bought as a replacment to Shevchenko which was a first striker himself. The first alternative to buying him was Ronaldo which also is a first striker. But maybe most important of all, Oliveira have played as a "9" or first striker both in Brazil and in Real Betis. all this points towards him being bought for something like that and not a support striker which he never really played before he came to us.

I also just discovered that you completly ignored the rest of the points here which disputed your post. Frankly you couldn't motivate your claim that Oliveira was bought as a second striker when he played his whole career as a first striker.

I dont blame him for ignoring your post it is ridiculously long. Can someone delete their posts or close this topic? If you guys want to learn about each others opinions and underwear size just talk in PM. This is absolutely annoying to see posts as long as essays everytime i log on.

Originally Posted by hitmannq8

I dont blame him for ignoring your post it is ridiculously long. Can someone delete their posts or close this topic? If you guys want to learn about each others opinions and underwear size just talk in PM. This is absolutely annoying to see posts as long as essays everytime i log on.

TRUE!! it ruined this thread.

ntrigante ipotesi di mercato quella proposta dal quotidiano sportivo spagnolo As che prova a stilare una possibile lista di scambi che potrebbero portare a Madrid il grande sogno di Calderòn, Kakà. Secondo il giornale spagnolo, appunto, la trattativa per il trasferimento del brasiliano del Milan alla corte della casa blanca potrebbe incentrarsi essenzialmente su tre giocatori: Robinho, Diarra e Cannavaro. As sostiene nifatti che l'attaccante Robinho sia da tempo sul taccuino del club rossonero che già in estate avrebbe provato a strapparlo a Capello offrendo 25 mln di euro. Secondo nome: Cannavaro. Il campione del mondo portrebbe tornare in Italia. Si parla anche di Juve ma il centrale potrebbe andare a fortificare una difesa, quella rossonera, un po' in difficoltà in questa stagione. Infine Diarra. Il centrocampista del Mali, acquistato in estate dal Lione, è in rotta con Capello e non si è reso protagonista di una stagione strepitosa, anche se ora, con l'arrivo di Gago, sembra aver trovato il ***lio giusto. A Milano farebbe coppia a centrocampo con Gattuso.

Per concludere la trattativa poi, il Milan riceverebbe un conguaglio in denaro in modo da poter poi sferrare l'assalto decisivo al vero grande obiettivo del presidente Berlusconi: Ronaldinho

Wtf ?......................................