UCL '04-'05: The Quest for Number 7

[ACMILAN1983]

I must give you credit Haroon, because I'd be too lazy to stay up 4 and a half hours to write all that.

Pretty much agree with most, although I think you overrate Porto's attack. To say they are comparable to ours (both got 4 stars) seems a bit of a stretch.

Anyway, excellent work

[Lombardia]

here are the groups after the 1st round(taking into avvount that kiev will be awarded the win)

group a

liverpool 3
deportivo 1
olympiakos 1
monaco 0

group b

leverkusen 3
kiev 3
roma 0
madrid 0

group c

bayern 3
juventus 3
ajax 0
maccabi tel aviv 0

group d

fenerbache 3
lyon 1
man u 1
sparta 0

group e

panathanikos 3
arsenal 3
psv 0
rosenborg 0

group f

barca 3
milan 3
shakter 0
celtic 0

group g

inter 3
valencia 3
anderlecht 0
weder bremen 0

group h

chelsea 2
cska moscow 1
porto 1
psg 0

[mk18]

i would rather join the army than do this haroon... hell, i would rather die!!!

[AC_Merda]

It was a good read, but how you rate your offense/forwards better than Inter's is a mystery. Adriano is as good as Sheva so they cancel each other out, Crespo failed miserably is England (much like Veron) and remains to be seen what he can conjure up in his return to Serie A. Tomasson is a good player and Inzaghi spends more time on the ground than scoring goals.

If anything both Milan and Inter have equal offenses. One big star striker (Sheva/Re Di Milan), solid 2nd and 3rd choice strikers (Tomasson/Crespo, Martins/Recoba), and fading, once good players (Pippo/Vieri)

[Haroon]

Originally Posted by AC_Merda

It was a good read, but how you rate your offense/forwards better than Inter's is a mystery. Adriano is as good as Sheva so they cancel each other out, Crespo failed miserably is England (much like Veron) and remains to be seen what he can conjure up in his return to Serie A. Tomasson is a good player and Inzaghi spends more time on the ground than scoring goals.

If anything both Milan and Inter have equal offenses. One big star striker (Sheva/Re Di Milan), solid 2nd and 3rd choice strikers (Tomasson/Crespo, Martins/Recoba), and fading, once good players (Pippo/Vieri)

Shevchenko has a scoring history in Europe and a history of scoring in the big European games. Adriano is starting his adventure. Sheva at this time not only has the name but the games to back it. He is slightly ahead.

Crespo didnot fail in England. You need to check his games to goals ratio which is very healthy. He is considered a failure there by the people as he is overshadowed by Henry, RVN etc because they start regularly. Chelsea was a merry go round with player changes taking place left, centre and right. Crespo's goal ratio was good in England.

Recoba is a NEVER WAS. Martins will hardly get a start unless some circumstances change in his favour and he can hardly do anything from the bench except watch Vieri and Recoba squander chance after chance. Vieri is not only a finished product but a damaging liability because his presence in the starting 11 is preventing Martins from playing. It is a double whammy.

And that explains why Milan has 4 stars and Inter 3.

Anyways congratulations on your win. I hope you guys qualify from your group as do Juve and Roma along with us of course. A strong Italian presence in the Rd-16 would be great.

[AC_Merda]

Shevchenko has a scoring history in Europe and a history of scoring in the big European games. Adriano is starting his adventure. Sheva at this time not only has the name but the games to back it. He is slightly ahead.

I'll give you this one for now but it could be a different story by the end of the year.

Crespo didnot fail in England. You need to check his games to goals ratio which is very healthy. He is considered a failure there by the people as he is overshadowed by Henry, RVN etc because they start regularly. Chelsea was a merry go round with player changes taking place left, centre and right. Crespo's goal ratio was good in England.

Who's fault was it that he didn't start on a consistent basis? Ranieri's or himself? Chelski didn't have the strike force last year that they have this season. Crespo should have no excuses about not being able to rise above the likes of Gudjonhsen and Hasselbaink.

Recoba is a NEVER WAS. Martins will hardly get a start unless some circumstances change in his favour and he can hardly do anything from the bench except watch Vieri and Recoba squander chance after chance. Vieri is not only a finished product but a damaging liability because his presence in the starting 11 is preventing Martins from playing. It is a double whammy.

Recoba is a headache thats for sure, but he's still a good option for a 3rd forward. Agree with everything else said there though. My biggest fear is Inter will not use Oba the way he should be: as Adriano's strike partner. Moratti might as well sell him to you guys if Mancini continues to use Vieri as the season wears on. Though to be fair Oba is just coming back from injury.

Anyways congratulations on your win. I hope you guys qualify from your group as do Juve and Roma along with us of course. A strong Italian presence in the Rd-16 would be great.

As to you. The more Italian teams the better, that way I can gloat to my EPL loving buddies.

[Gio-mania]

good work;-
congratulations,-
your ananlysis are awesome! and u must of been there a long time to write all that stuff!

!!!!!!!!!bravo!!!!!!!!!!!

[Warro Bantan]

AC Milan:
Group Stage UCL 2004-5

With the Shaktar game behind Milan, (a 0-1 victory) and a string of lack lustre games in the league subsequent to that match, only the most devout Milan fan would not face the next UCL game vs. Celtic without some small amount of trepidation.

Though an all-powerful force in the Scottish Premiership, Celtic has yet to impress at this, the highest level of the European game, but they are characterised by a stern defence and defensive mindset to rival even the tightest Italian outfit.

And this indeed, is cause for concern IMO, As was the case in some of our poorer performances last term, Milan’s build up is rather pedestrian in pace, and though we end up dominating the game, and possession, often, and more so this go-round, we end up giving up a goal or two on a counterattack, or just via a lapse in concentration.

Celtic’s forward line of Sutton and Hartson may not be the paciest, but they can score with the best of them, if presented with enough time and space.

Milan however has a distinct advantage in the middle, as here we clearly outclass the Scottish outfit. Ambrosini’s momentary loss of sanity on Sunday vs. Lazio resulting in his sending off may preclude him from a place in the starting 11, (Carlo’s punishment rather than a UEFA ban of course)though this humble pundit feels he played well enough to start ahead of Gattuso, whose displays in the attacking 3rd left much to be desired…(What’s new? some may ask…or others may herald his never-say-die defensive attitude, but I have said it before, and will say it again, Gattuso is an attacking liability in much the same way that Cafu is a defensive one). Every now and again he makes a good pass or cross, (eg vs Inter last term)but that is more rare than a non-smoking Rastafarian.

Rui Costa may be sacrificed for a rested Pirlo, but were I given the opportunity to select the starting 11, Rui would get the nod over Pirlo, as Andrea certainly was not offensive enough Sunday when presented with an open goal, and the Lazio’s keeper foundering…1-3 would have been a much better result, and we could have had it had he shot sooner. Rui IMO would have torn a hole in the back of the net…a la Euro 2004…let me hasten to add that Pirlo didn’t have a bad game, (overall vs. Lazio) but against certain opponents, I prefer Rui’s experience.

Rui is also a better dribbler than Pirlo, and is just as capable as the young Italian of making the long pass to the forwards as he is of a neat one-two or a defence splitting pass…Kaka is a sure start, behind the strikers, with Seedorf, Gattuso and Pirlo (though I prefer Ambro and Rui respectively) behind the Brazilian star. On the topic of strikers, Sheva is a must start, though I hope that Tomasson, Inzahgi and Crespo find form soon, as we will need to rest our Ukrainian talisman eventually. Of the aforementioned 3, I think Tomasson may get the nod, as his physical presence will be needed against Celtic’s strong back line.

As to our defence, I hope Stam is fit again, as Kaladze and Cafu don’t seem to be cutting it as well as I would have hoped, and as previously mentioned, Cafu is letting goals in faster than the law allows with his ineffective tackling (as seen in Messina’s second goal) and abysmal marking (Couto’s goal for Lazio on Sunday). My concern with Stam is his fitness and pace, more the latter if he is to play RB, and more the former if he is to concentrate for 90 min in the centre.

Carlo and the magicians at Milanello will decide the starting 11 vs Celtic come Wednesday, but I am not completely confident that we will get the result we want (ie 3 points at home) unless the team manages to maintain focus and concentration for the majority of the 90+ minutes of the match, and we put away our chances,

Celtic will not be forgiving of our mistakes, and we need to close them out in the middle third of our half, prevent their crossing game, and attack swiftly, using a combination of the flanks, long, direct balls and short decisive one-two midfield passing. A slow patient build up is fine to get ourselves going, but if we keep up that style of attack, we would be playing right into Celtic’s hands.

As a team though, Milan seem slightly more cohesive as the young season unfolds, with each game slightly better than the last…I just hope the improvement is seen again against the Scots on Wednesday, and is significant enough to grant us a victory.

The next match-up that I fear is the Barca-Milan home and away games. Barca seem to be going from strength to strength as their domestic and European seasons unfold. They boast an awesome collection of attacking talent, and with Pulyol and Cocu in the back line, they are not particularly wanting there either. The Barca midfield is the envy of most of Spain, and Europe to boot. Ronaldihno, Deco et al are certainly a force to recon with, and cannot be allowed even a yard of space within which to work. Etoo seems to be getting better and better (La Liga’s leading goal scorer), and the evergreen Larsson doesn’t often spurn opportunities to score.

Against Barca, I would opt for a 5-man midfield, with Gattuso and Ambro as ball-winners, Kaka and Rui as attacking midfielders, with Pirlo in the centre to pull the strings. Sheva would play the lone striker, and thus would be receive the ball where he needs it, in and around the 18-yard box. Seedorf I would bring in for Gattuso or Ambro as the game unfolded, if necessary, or as a replacement for a tiring Pirlo or Rui.

I would hope for the strongest back 4 we could field, which omits Cafu, and includes a fit Coloccini, in whom I have utmost faith with Stam, Maldini and Nesta completing the lineup. Where they fit into the back insofar as to their respective positions, I would leave up to Carlo.

The return leg vs. Shaktar, and away to Celtic hopefully would be just matches of no consequence to Milan, except for pride, for if we defeat all our opponents in the first half of the group stage, and win one of the second round of matches (i.e. garnering 12 points) only a total collapse would prevent us from qualifying for the knockout rounds, or even finishing in 2nd place. For these matches, I would field our “2nd eleven” giving opportunities to fringe players, who should work hard to ensure greater playing time: Dohrasso, Simic, Brocci et al should be given a run.

As to the knock out stage, well, you cannot cross a bridge before you get there.

[Haroon]

Top Notch stuff Warro!

I agree with your stuff on Barca. Worth a discussion but for now like you I am a bit tentative and nervous regarding the Celtic game. We have to win this game to start the momentum.

EDIT: Just a thing regarding our probable 11. This is our first home UCL game so ringing in a lot of changes can cause more harm than benefit. Celtic know they have to get something as they lost at home so we will get spaces in this match. It won't be like Messina.

[Warro Bantan]

Originally Posted by Haroon

Top Notch stuff Warro!

EDIT: Just a thing regarding our probable 11. This is our first home UCL game so ringing in a lot of changes can cause more harm than benefit. Celtic know they have to get something as they lost at home so we will get spaces in this match. It won't be like Messina.

Thanks Haroon, coming from you, that is appreciated praise indeed!

As to the starting 11, I agree with your assessment re ringing a lot of changes etc, but I think with Colo in for Cafu, we are more solid at the back, and if Pancaro can run up one flank, and Maldini interchanges with Colo to make runs up the left, we should be strong in the back, while still being able to attack up the wings....

Knowing Carlo though, I dont anticipate much in terms of a change in the starting lineup.

[Haroon]

Time to kick-start this thread as we have reached halfway point in the Greatest Club Competition in the world.

Reflection of what was

When the draw for this year's competition took place in Nyon we had some interesting pairings to look forward to in the eight groups. England, Italia, & España all had 4 of their best teams in the league. There were no surprise teams so to speak from these three countries. In Deutschland it was slightly different as Borussia Dortmund missed out on a CL spot giving way to the tricky Werder Bremen side that was the worst POT 4 side in the competition.

Nederland & France had good sides once again to round off the Big 32 in Europe. I personally thought that when the 32 teams entered in the 2002-3 season it was the toughest UCL in History and I mentioned this in September 2002 and not in May 2003 when Maldini lifted the trophy in the Manchester skyline.

Well this year's competition is tougher than that one. This is the toughest UCL ever. Europe's elite clubs, players and even coaches are there this time around. The big names missing are Del Bosque, Hitzfeld and Lippi for one reason or the other.

I can't recall an important or big name who is/was not a part of this great competition in the 2004-5 edition. To make it even grander the big names were playing for popular clubs as well. e.g. United signed Rooney right at the death of the window and instead of playing for Everton (who are doing very well in the EPL), he became a part of this competition and announced himself with a fantastic hat-trick!

The captain who has the HONOUR to lift this GREAT TROPHY in Istanbul come May 2005 can look back proudly of what a great feat his side have achieved in this adventure that began in September 2004.

The Surprises & Upsets

-----------------
---Valencia CF---
-----------------

The biggest shocker will have to be Valencia missing out on the knock-out. They won La Liga and kept hold of their squad with the addition of new names. Change of coach must've hurt them the most. The unfortunate injury to club captain Roberto Fabian Ayala was a shot in the dark for the Spaniard side as they lose purpose after the first matchday. More details to follow once the Ches are reviewed.

----------------------------
---RC Deportivo La Coruña---
----------------------------

I was glad that Deportivo La Coruña got knocked out in the group stage for once. When La Coruña started to take this competition by storm with wins over United, Arsenal, Juventus and Bayern in seasons past it looked like a new challenger had entered the arena with the ability to stand shoulder to shoulder with Europe's big guns. But it was more flash than substance. A recurring pattern that I noticed with La Coruña was that they would make it a point to take out a Big European outfit each season but not work on that success and instead hit the self-destruct button and go out themselves. I don't like sides to not build on their success. Hence for me personally it was a great satisfaction for La Coruña to go out because the end story would've been the same with them. Take out a big team and then go out to a lesser side.

---------------
---AS Roma---
---------------

Roma's campaign got off to a wrong start and the ship had barely stabilized when it all went from bad to worse to downright ridiculous. A UCL campaign to forget for the Romans.

------------------
---Dynamo Kyiv---
------------------

Lobanovsky (RIP) would be proud to see the emergence of the great Kyiv side that put in some memorable performances. The problem for them was that they were in a very tight group that included the most successful club side in this competition's history i.e. Real Madrid CF, Bayer 04 Leverkusen and AS Roma. A tight group indeed. To make matters worse for them, the German outfit under Augenthaler were up for it this time and made a strong opening statement on Matchday 1 with a powerful demolition of Real Madrid.

Kyiv's efforts must be applauded however for their strong showing and brave efforts. It is extremely RARE for a side to go out after scoring 10 points and under normal circumstances that amount is more than enough to qualify. The other two sides were just a tad bit better than them. They can go out with their heads held high and make a strong challenge in the UEFA CUP. Their showing also reflects Ukraine doing well in the WC qualifiers.

We should expect a rampant Dynamo Kyiv to return next season. It is good to see a strong Eastern European challenge in this competition. Eastern Europe has always played a strong role in this competition and it is GREAT for the competition that there is a rising from Eastern Europe.


---------------
---AFC Ajax---
---------------

Ajax got stuck in a difficult group. The toughest one of them all. With the instability lurking at the start of the season with rumours of Koeman quitting and the results not going their way, it was playing with fire. Ajax stabilized but in this unforgiving competition there are no second chances. The other two European giants were in better shape and form and made the best of what they got while Ajax was just not prepared for the competition.

---------------------
---Werder Bremen---
---------------------

The team from POT 4 that is surprising other teams. The team that is responsible for the elimination of Valencia CF. The team that everybody looks down upon is causing a stir. The team that has butt-ugly jerseys (colours) is on the verge of making it a QF! Werder Bremen along with Leverkusen and Bayern has made it a German trio in the knock-out matching Italia and superseding España! Could this be a little German rennaissance in the making after a horror showing in the past couple of seasons by German outfits?

It would be a smart thing to keep an eye on them because most of the people will have their eyes focused on the Italians, English and Spanish whilst these Germans will pop out of nowhere and voila! 2 in the QF! And yet all three could go out. I do think that a German will make the QF this time but it is tough to pick a single side as all three are involved in tricky ties.

England

England has made a strong showing in this year's competition. The first time that they have 4 sides in the knock-outs. A superb feat! It gets tough now as the ties are extremely tough. England and Deutschland face-off in two ties that are evenly balanced. Time will tell whether Sean Archer wins or will Castor Troy make headlines.

The more level-headed English pundits acknowledge the toughness of the draw but for every level-headed objective journalist there will be a dimunitive clown like ANDY TOWNSEND and TERRY VENABLES who have given all four English sides the green light for the QF!!! I'll give details on those two CLOWNS later on. It is the $hit of all $hit!! :shades:

Italia

Strong showing by all three Italian outfits so far. Now is the business end of it all. I wasn't expecting all three to top their groups but they did it and the groups were not easy. A new day now and a new phase of the competition where the skill will start to take a back seat gradually as the mental strength kicks in for the thrills and the stars to show what they are made up of. This is not for the weak at heart or mind.

España

Troubled times for the Spanish. Barcelona is the flag-bearer now as they can go the distance and look the real deal. Two of them are out while Real scraped through and are in a tricky tie with Juventus FC. España has enjoyed good numbers and domination in recent seasons but that is under threat for this season as only BARCELONA is a match for anybody around Europe. Betting on Real in this state is not the smartest thing to do but Real has the names and the history ... not to forget the art of winning these big competitions.


France

It wasn't a fluke last season. Monaco and Lyon are there doing the business again. And both have an excellent chance of a QF qualification yet again. The problem is that they are goldfish in an ocean where the bigger fish this time will not take them lightly as they know they are shark slayers from last season.


So ... here we are at the turn of the year awaiting the big clashes which to my memory's recollection is the BEST DRAW I have seen and I hope DVD recorders were on many people's shopping lists because they will be very handy in February.

One by one I will take a look back at the teams I previewed and see where we stand with Europe's elite and how our adventure is progressing in the QUEST FOR NUMBER 7 which evidently is also the TOUGHEST UCL IN THE COMPETITION'S HISTORY.

The business end starts now. Strap on your seat belts.

[ACMILAN1983]

Cool can't wait for more Haroon, excellent as usual.

Note that both pundits mentioned are from ITV (and the ones your talking about there are argubly ITV's best ones )

[Haroon]

Source: http://www.uefa.com/competitions/UCL...Id=268747.html

Nice stats. They'll come in handy.

AC Milan (ITA)
Qualified as: Italian champions
Serie A status: Second (P15 W10 D4 L1)
Group stage: Group F winners (P6 W4 D1 L1)
Best performance: Winners (1963, 1969, 1989, 1990, 1994, 2003)
2003/04 Champions League: Quarter-finals (lost 5-4 on aggregate to RC Deportivo La Coruña)
RD-16 opponents: Manchester United FC

Arsenal FC (ENG)
Qualified as: English champions
Premiership status: Third (P17 W10 D5 L2)
Group stage: Group E winners (P6 W2 D4 L0)
Best performance: Quarter-finals (2001, 2004)
2003/04 Champions League: Quarter-finals (lost 3-2 on aggregate to Chelsea)
RD-16 opponents: FC Bayern München

AS Monaco FC (FRA)
Qualified as: Third place in France
Ligue 1 status: Third (P18 W7 D8 L3)
Group stage: Group A winners (P6 W4 D0 L2)
Best performance: Runners-up (2004)
2003/04 Champions League: Final (lost 3-0 to Porto)
RD-16 opponents: PSV Eindhoven

Bayer 04 Leverkusen (GER)
Qualified as: Third place in Germany
Bundesliga status: Eighth (P17 W7 D5 L5)
Group stage: Group B winners (P6 W3 D2 L1)
Best performance: Runners-up (2002)
2003/04 Champions League: Did not qualify
RD-16 opponents: Liverpool FC

Chelsea FC (ENG)
Qualified as: English runners-up
Premiership status: First (P17 W12 D4 L1)
Group stage: Group H winners (P6 W4 D1 L1)
Best performance: Semi-finals (2004)
2003/04 Champions League: Semi-finals (lost 5-3 on aggregate to Monaco)
RD-16 opponents: FC Barcelona

FC Barcelona (ESP)
Qualified as: Spanish runners-up
Primera División status: First (P15 W12 D2 L1)
Group stage: Group F runners-up (P6 W3 D1 L2)
Best performance: Winners (1992)
2003/04 Champions League: Did not qualify
RD-16 opponents: Chelsea FC

FC Bayern München (GER)
Qualified as: German runners-up
Bundesliga status: First (P17 W10 D4 L3)
Group stage: Group C runners-up (P6 W3 D1 L2)
Best performance: Winners (1974, 1975, 1976, 2001)
2003/04 Champions League: First knockout round (lost 2-1 on aggregate to Madrid)
RD-16 opponents: Arsenal FC

FC Internazionale Milano (ITA)
Qualified as: Fourth place in Italy
Serie A status: Fifth (P15 W3 D12 L0)
Group stage: Group G winners (P6 W4 D2 L0)
Best performance: Winners (1964, 1965)
2003/04 Champions League: Group stage
RD-16 opponents: FC Porto

FC Porto (POR)
Qualified as: Holders
SuperLiga status: Second (P13 W7 D4 L2)
Group stage: Group H runners-up (P6 W2 D2 L2)
Best performance: Winners (1987, 2004)
2003/04 Champions League: Winners (beat Monaco 3-0 in the final)
RD-16 opponents: Internazionale FC

Juventus FC (ITA)
Qualified as: Third place in Italy
Serie A status: First (P15 W12 D2 L1)
Group stage: Group C winners (P6 W5 D1 L0)
Best performance: Winners (1985, 1996)
2003/04 Champions League: First knockout round (lost 2-0 on aggregate to Deportivo)
RD-16 opponents: Real Madrid CF

Liverpool FC (ENG)
Qualified as: Fourth place in England
Premiership status: Sixth (P17 W7 D4 L6)
Group stage: Group A runners-up (P6 W3 D1 L2)
Best performance: Winners (1977, 1978, 1981, 1984)
2003/04 Champions League: Did not qualify
RD-16 opponents:Bayer 04 Leverkusen

Manchester United FC (ENG)
Qualified as: Third place in England
Premiership status: Fourth (P17 W8 D7 L2)
Group stage: Group D runners-up (P6 W3 D2 L1)
Best performance: Winners (1968, 1999)
2003/04 Champions League: First knockout round (lost 3-2 on aggregate to Porto)
RD-16 opponents: AC Milan

Olympique Lyonnais (FRA)
Qualified as: French champions
Ligue 1 status: First (P18 W10 D8 L0)
Group stage: Group D winners (P6 W4 D1 L1)
Best performance: Quarter-finals (2004)
2003/04 Champions League: Quarter-finals (lost 4-2 on aggregate to Porto)
RD-16 opponents: Werder Bremen

PSV Eindhoven (NED)
Qualified as: Dutch runners-up
Eredivisie status: First (P16 W13 D3 L0)
Group stage: Group E runners-up (P6 W3 D1 L2)
Best performance: Winners (1988)
2003/04 Champions League: Group stage
RD-16 opponents: AS Monaco

Real Madrid CF (ESP)
Qualified as: Fourth place in Spain
Primera División status: Fourth (P14 W8 D4 L2)
Group stage: Group B runners-up (P6 W3 D2 L1)
Best performance: Winners (1956, 1957, 1958, 1959, 1960, 1966, 1998, 2000, 2002)
2003/04 Champions League: Quarter-finals (lost on away goals to Monaco after 5-5 draw)
RD-16 opponents: Juventus FC

Werder Bremen (GER)
Qualified as: German champions
Bundesliga status: Fifth (P17 W8 D4 L5)
Group stage: Runners-up in Group E (P6 W3 L2 D1)
Best performance: Quarter-finals (1989)
2003/04 Champions League: Did not qualify
RD-16 opponents: Olympique Lyonnais

[Jim_UK]

As always Haroon, a highly detailed and informative post from you ..... most excellent

It's good to see you back again, i hope you enjoy the holidays

[Stezagud]

for every level-headed objective journalist there will be a dimunitive clown like ANDY TOWNSEND and TERRY VENABLES who have given all four English sides the green light for the QF!!! I'll give details on those two CLOWNS later on. It is the $hit of all $hit!! :shades:

well surely they are an improvement on Big Wrong Atkinson

I know they've said a lot of dumb stiff in the past but i dont think they did anything particularly bad in suggesting all the English teams could go through. Arsenal and Liverpool are both capable of beating their opponants and if any team is balanced enough to beat Barca then its Chelsea. Of those 3 draws are there any were you see no chance for the English team?

Then of course is the Utd - Milan match which on current form Milan should win, but Utds record against Italian teams in recent years is excellent and the team still has enough quality to beat anyone if all the pieces of the jigsaw come together at the same time (which slowly they are ) plus, as Ruud is unlikely to be fit they have a ready made excuse