AC Milan v. Udinese {9/1/2011: 15:00 CET}

[Brasileiro]

Originally Posted by GeoTav

Despite the two goals of Pato, I thought his performance was awful and hoped he would be replaced by Cassano (I didn't think Allegri would keep all our forwards on the pitch, something he didn't do when Ronaldinho was there) ...

Why ?

He missed almost all his dribbles, didn't really help to defend, and he wasn't that good in his attempts to score (because of all the lost balls when dribbling) ... His two goals are good and quite Inzaghi-esque.

Actually, for moment, by waiting to see him at full confidence and 100% fit, I think he should play like Inzaghi: not keeping the ball and dribbling, Ibrahimovic does it 10 times better than him, just trying to be at the right place at the right moment to score thanks to the work of his partners ...

So, you bash Pato for work rate and wants Cassano at his place??

Btw, we saw two different games. I was mad because he was helping more than he needed. He was at the right wing a lot all game long.

Also, sorry but I can´t believe in what you wrote about Pato be used as a Inzaghi. If thats the case, it´s better to sell him and buy a Luca Tony type. If it wasn´t for this terrible Pato, it would be a victory for Udinese. Plus, to say the play of the second goal was luck and not a drible reveals the ones that never had skills to play... It was a clear drible.

Originally Posted by ACMILAN1983

Must say I'm surprised by your assessment of him. I thought he was very good. What made you think he didn't help to defend, seeing as I'm pretty sure he was our most defensive forward in the second half?

Glad I´m not alone here... For some moments I thought I had seen another game after read Geo criticism. Or that maybe for the fact Pato is Brazilian that I was being biased. I recorded the game and will watch again to see if we are wrong.

[Codino]

yeah i think thats a bit of an exaggeration. Pato did the job, still decisive, and still improving.

[LebRN]

Originally Posted by Brasileiro

So, you bash Pato for work rate and wants Cassano at his place??

Btw, we saw two different games. I was mad because he was helping more than he needed. He was at the right wing a lot all game long.

Also, sorry but I can´t believe in what you wrote about Pato be used as a Inzaghi. If thats the case, it´s better to sell him and buy a Luca Tony type. If it wasn´t for this terrible Pato, it would be a victory for Udinese. Plus, to say the play of the second goal was luck and not a drible reveals the ones that never had skills to play... It was a clear drible.

Glad I´m not alone here... For some moments I thought I had seen another game after read Geo criticism. Or that maybe for the fact Pato is Brazilian that I was being biased. I recorded the game and will watch again to see if we are wrong.

you are definitely not alone mate, but i for example got sick of Hitman's continuous bashing of Pato no matter what yes no matter what....there is not a game where he sees that Pato was better than Robinho (his sweethart) for example even against Udinese!!!!

but now seeing Geo's comment i'm also surprised...

Anyway, when a player is valued for 60-70Mio and every club in the world is trying(or has tried at a certain stage) to get him, then i think he probably is not as awful as some here describe him to be

oh and if u really "believe" in a player....u can at least think that a 2-goal performance (the 2nd of which was an EXPERT striker's goal) is NOT AWFUL...that is how u BELIEVE in a player

One more thing, there were quite a few games during this season where Ibra would be totally absent during the game...doing nothing...missing everything...not helping in defence....and then gets us a decisive goal/assist...and nobody crticizes him and he is considered a genius. Don't get me wrong, i totally love the guy and i too consider him a genius and we are very lucky to have him, i just think we can be fair to Pato like we are to Ibra...thank you

[hitmannq8]

Pato better than Robinho on that game? If you take out the two goals, there is no way you are right. Robinho would sweat blood for Milan, the difference is Robinho has been putting consistent good performances game after game (he hasn't produced any excellent performances yet), whilst Pato performs 10 pathetic games and then 1 good game and suddenly he is the new fenomeno.

Talent is there, no one doubts about that. I only doubt that there is a brain in there somewhere. And yeah man, the execution for the second goal was excellent.... but 9/10 times it wouldn't even pass the defender, thats why I say he was lucky - not to mention he had no idea he controlled the ball like that. Don't believe me? Stop being biased and watch the video again.

I'll be the first to compliment the kid on a good game, but he is a liability to the team when he plays.... the thing is, even when he plays this bad he has an incredible goal scoring rate...... one can only wonder what the kid can achieve with a good football brain and good physical body.

EDIT: and why has no one commented on the fourth goal we conceded? Why can't anyone acknowledge it was th same situation as Seedorf for the third goal?

[ACMILAN1983]

Originally Posted by hitmannq8

I agree with Siregar and Geo, I thought Pato was absolutely aweful and quite lucky in how he controlled the ball for his second goal and shot it between the defenders legs.

I dont understand why Pato is not being criticized as much as Seedorf for his mistake, because if you look at Udinese's fourth goal, Pato gave them the ball careless by being selfish instead of doing a simple move, and that counter attack resulted in a goal.... and when Seedorf did that for the third goal everyone attacked him.

I am not defending Seedorf, infact f**K Seedorf but I'm saying Pato should not be invincible and be free to make these mistakes that we ignore. He is young yea, but that does not mean he can do whatever he wants, He must learn from his mistakes and must improve his decision making...I haven't seen him improve in a long time and has been playing the same as he has last year and the one before. You can argue that he was injured, but the experience of a player always increases and his knowledge of the game as he grows older. I have not seen any development in Pato's case in terms of skill/understanding/football. His only development has been his height and weight, and he couldn't even cope with it given all of his injuries last year.

I believe in the kid, but he is not on the right track. He was our worst attacking player against Udinese.

I disagree about Pato and to some extent Seedorf being criticized for mistakes. Seedorf's was a bigger mistake, as he was just in front of our defence when he lost the ball. We cannot ignore the fact that he was the only midfield though and behind him were only our CBs. I think tactically we had committed far too much in attack which made us vulnerable in defence. Seedorf should have played it safe and that's his mistake, but I'm more annoyed at how little tactical discipline the team showed in that move. Also, Bonera on that goal should have simply tried to slow Di Natale down and play him onto his weaker foot away from goal, which he didn't do at all.

On the fourth goal, Pato lost the ball at the Udinese box when surrounded by 2/3 Udinese defenders. This isn't an abnormal scenario and is likely with any forward in the world. More importantly, we again pressed extremely high and left ourselves open to a counter. Again, Bonera's poor positioning/marking cost us as he lost his man.

Pato for me definitely wasn't our worst attacking player against Udinese, and I must say Robinho for me was far less decisive in the match. That said, as I've said Robinho wasn't played in his best position and it showed.

[Aficio]

Originally Posted by hitmannq8

Pato better than Robinho on that game? If you take out the two goals, there is no way you are right. Robinho would sweat blood for Milan, the difference is Robinho has been putting consistent good performances game after game (he hasn't produced any excellent performances yet), whilst Pato performs 10 pathetic games and then 1 good game and suddenly he is the new fenomeno.

Talent is there, no one doubts about that. I only doubt that there is a brain in there somewhere. And yeah man, the execution for the second goal was excellent.... but 9/10 times it wouldn't even pass the defender, thats why I say he was lucky - not to mention he had no idea he controlled the ball like that. Don't believe me? Stop being biased and watch the video again.

I'll be the first to compliment the kid on a good game, but he is a liability to the team when he plays.... the thing is, even when he plays this bad he has an incredible goal scoring rate...... one can only wonder what the kid can achieve with a good football brain and good physical body.

EDIT: and why has no one commented on the fourth goal we conceded? Why can't anyone acknowledge it was th same situation as Seedorf for the third goal?

But you couldn't and mustn't take them out, that would cause us a lost

IMO, there is one different thing between both brazilians: the decisiveness. Robinho lacks that quality, so he stays near the world class forever.

And about the 4th goal, forwards are allowed to dribble near the penalty area, but a midfielder near the central circle is another story

[GeoTav]

Originally Posted by Brasileiro

So, you bash Pato for work rate and wants Cassano at his place??

Btw, we saw two different games. I was mad because he was helping more than he needed. He was at the right wing a lot all game long.

Also, sorry but I can´t believe in what you wrote about Pato be used as a Inzaghi. If thats the case, it´s better to sell him and buy a Luca Tony type. If it wasn´t for this terrible Pato, it would be a victory for Udinese. Plus, to say the play of the second goal was luck and not a drible reveals the ones that never had skills to play... It was a clear drible.

Glad I´m not alone here... For some moments I thought I had seen another game after read Geo criticism. Or that maybe for the fact Pato is Brazilian that I was being biased. I recorded the game and will watch again to see if we are wrong.

We often agree on things, but this time, I tend to disagree.

Don't read me wrong, I want Pato to stay, I want him to become the best striker ever or at least one of the best of the next few years, but I also think that it is possible to bash a player we admire sometimes, and on this game, I was mad with the way Pato played.

Firstly, about Pato-Cassano, no, it's not about the work rate, but about the lost balls, it's mainly what made me furious during that game. Cassano doesn't lose balls and plays more like Ibrahimovic (he can keep the ball, and makes good/great passes) than Pato. We had an attacking trio on the pitch, and I didn't think one second that Allegri woul replace a midfielder by Cassano, I thought Cassano would come in to replace one of our attacking trio. Ibrahimovic, on this game, was too much needed, so it was one between Robinho and Pato in my mind. And on this game, I would have replaced Pato, not Robinho.

About Pato being used like Inzaghi, like I said, it's by waiting to see him at 100% (physically and mentally) ... the guy is one of the best finishers, he can score in any position, and by being used as our last striker, a bit like Inzaghi, he can focus on scoring and only scoring, and sometimes, of course, he could have to dribble one defender, something he is able to do. But I'm tired to see him trying to dribble the whole defence alone and lose the ball after one or two dribbles (it's not about Pato, if any other player tried the same thing, I would be mad at him too) ... That's useless and that stops/destroys the team play. Just imagine one second, instead of trying to dribble 3 midfielders and 4 defenders , if Pato just tried to dribble one guy, gave the ball to a partner sending him back the ball after: we would have ball movement and players movement, instead of that, we have stopped players and a counter to defend ...

About the goals, don't know who said it wasn't good goals, but to me, it's clearly the kind of goals Pato has to score (because he has the talent to do it), and with Ibra and/or Cassano around, he could take profit several times a game of these passes.
If you take a look at his second goal, what he does is amazing, what has been done to give him the ball is also amazing, everything worked, that's just amazing and perfect. How was Pato on this goal ? Not moving to dribble 5 guys, he was in the middle of the defence and had to shoot (with one defender in front of him), and he did it successfully. So why not saying to Pato to try to stay near the defenders all the time (and pressing them when they have the ball) ? When I say twe should use him a bit like Inzaghi, it's about his position, and as a consequence, Pato would probably lose less balls as he would have to dribble/try to dribble less players. Buying a player like Luca Toni ? No way, we have a better finisher and a faster player in Pato.

[GeoTav]

Originally Posted by LebRN

you are definitely not alone mate, but i for example got sick of Hitman's continuous bashing of Pato no matter what yes no matter what....there is not a game where he sees that Pato was better than Robinho (his sweethart) for example even against Udinese!!!!

but now seeing Geo's comment i'm also surprised...

Anyway, when a player is valued for 60-70Mio and every club in the world is trying(or has tried at a certain stage) to get him, then i think he probably is not as awful as some here describe him to be

oh and if u really "believe" in a player....u can at least think that a 2-goal performance (the 2nd of which was an EXPERT striker's goal) is NOT AWFUL...that is how u BELIEVE in a player

One more thing, there were quite a few games during this season where Ibra would be totally absent during the game...doing nothing...missing everything...not helping in defence....and then gets us a decisive goal/assist...and nobody crticizes him and he is considered a genius. Don't get me wrong, i totally love the guy and i too consider him a genius and we are very lucky to have him, i just think we can be fair to Pato like we are to Ibra...thank you

It's not because all clubs want him, because he is valued very highly by the best clubs that he can't have a bad performance here and there. For me, that doesn't mean anything and I don't care about the other clubs, he's a Milan player, will stay (I hope) a Milan player for a long time, and no matter the performances, the guy has to be criticized, positively when he deserves it, negatively when he deserves it.

It happens sometimes that Messi is awful in a game (it's rare), I think it's not because he's nowadays one of the best players on Earth that when it happens, we don't have the right to say he was awful on this game. Saying that doesn't mean the player is awful, that just means what it means: he had one bad performance.

If I summarize my last posts (which seem polemical here ), that gives:

+ 2 goals
- dribbles
- his position (I don't think Allegri asked him to play on the right, at the start of the game, it was obvious Robinho had to play as a trequartista, or something like that, but Robinho is a player needing to move a lot, Ibrahimovic takes a lot of place too on the front of the attack, and Pato tried to find a place and went more on the right, which was a mistake, he should have gone in front of the other two, it would have been better, and when he did it, that resulted in 2 goals: that's also a mistake by Allegri there not to see the kid is better near the goal and let him go on the right)

[LebRN]

@ Geo, i only mentioned u in my post because i also usually agree with u that is why i was surprised....but all of my comments were directed to hitman

@ hitman, Pato played 11 games this season if i am not mistaken and has scored 10 goals; now, if these are the 10 awful and 1 good game he plays, i hope he keeps up with his awfulness forever

I never said the kid is playing perfect football, we all know he can improve a lot, but what is unacceptable is that u say he plays 10 awful games and 1 good one....or that taking out 2 GOAL from his performance makes him awful!!! wanna take out Robinho's "blood sweating" and tell me what's left???

anyway, if u seriously saw that goal again and again and are convinced he had no idea where the ball was going then i guess there's no point debating with you

[Elmago99]

A Forward/Striker's job is to either score goals or create them. I'm finding that Robinho is better at creating the buildup to a goal, while Pato is a better scorer.

Pato needs to improve, no doubt, but with his scoring rate he's already one of the best in the World. He has weaknesses, but if he works on them in next 2-3 years, imagine how deadly he can be????

@ Brasileiro

Didn't you say Pato is best as Striker playing on last defender? I also think this, but that's exactly how Inzaghi plays. Inzaghi is always on last defender, and he's also in the penalty box when we have the ball in oppositions half. Pato will be best as a number 9. I don't think all of a sudden Pato will be able to dribble past defenders like Messi & Ronaldo. That's something that should have been developed by now. I think he'll be best at beating players on wing or up the middle with his speed, beating the last defender or scoring nice goals in the penalty box.. where his accuracy for shooting is of a very very high level.
Lastly, it would be nice if he can pressure the other teams CB's and FB's when we don't have the ball, but he's not needed to come back to our half. That would be a waste of energy and pull him out of position. As a player (amateur Men's leagues), I played as an Inzaghi type of player, on the last men, and I was often yelled out to help out in defense. I was always told to stay on the last man. Pato will be this player as his speed is LETHAL.

It's interesting though, how heated this debate is with many people thinking Pato should play in different ways. As for Robinho, I think he's a player of high quality, high work rate, but a poor finisher. However, we're lucky we have Ibra and Pato for finishing, as they rarely miss the target
In the best scenario, Robinho is a Super-Sub for Ibra/Pato or a starter to give them rest. When our squad is out of the rebuilding phase, and we establish our 4-3-1-2 with a proper ACM, Robinho will not be a starter IMO.