View Full Version : Episode #2: Milan vs. Shakhtar (10-24-2007): Kaka` the savior?
ACMILAN1983
25-10-2007, 15:35
Personally i completely disagree with that and i think it's a bit of a myth that ALL of the defences in Serie A are super tough. They're not. I watched the opening match, Inter v Udinese and the amount of time they had on the ball was a joke and totally dispelled this idea that it's so tight in Serie A. The majority of the other games i've seen on ch5 have confirmed this.
But i can understand that my limited viewing of Serie A may not be representory of the rest of the league, but i've yet to see alot of games dispell this notion.
Your right in you posts above (the one after this one) that there are still a lot of stereotypes about the Italian game which aren't true. However, I think that Italian defences are quite a lot tighter than other leagues, but there's a reason. Normally, Italian teams will press opponents in the final third of the field rather than put pressure on opponents earlier on like in England and Spain. Therefore, it's often noticeable the attacking side has a lot of possession but in the final third struggle to end attacking moves. We at Milan seem to be the ultimate example of a side that struggles with this unfortunately.
Just another excuse that was handed down by our bosses and you took it with both hands. Ok, so defence is tighter, but its tighter for everyone. And how come italy has almost identical goals/game ratio to spain (and england?). And whats wrong with playing aggressive if you dont have players like kaka&pirlo to create magic? Seems to me like you're saying a team must let us play (leaving kaka unmarked, letting players in acres of space so they can stroll around freely) so we can play? Nonsense.
Possesion isnt everything, look at barca, they often have it over 60% but alot of time they just pass around all helpless. It was the same with milan this year, how many times in a game i saw a player turn around and pass backward (kaka>seedorf->pirlo->defense) under some fine pressing, instead of looking to exploit it. Its milan's problem, nothing else.
how many times in a game i saw a player turn around and pass backward (kaka>seedorf->pirlo->defense) under some fine pressing, instead of looking to exploit it. Its milan's problem, nothing else.
I don't know enough about soccer so I'm not ready to say that passing the ball backward is immediately a bad passing. So I don't know, and so I'm not sure if I can entirely agree with you. Similarly, you can pass the ball in front but then lose it quickly, allowing a counter-attack.
In any case, I think in serie A we lack pace; a lot of pace is needed and unfortunately we don't have two (Kaka` makes the one up but we need another)... Is Ronaldo going to be the solution? Given that he is out for so long, my answer is no. Pato, hopefully, will be the one.
I don't know enough about soccer so I'm not ready to say that passing the ball backward is immediately a bad passing.
No, thats not always a bad thing, its good to calm down and control the game, to dictate the tempo u want to play. But when a team is a goal down and you see players do that 5 times in 15 minutes - i think that just shows lack of creativity, pace, hunger. It means they just cannot cope with set defence and are rather waiting for some counters or a big mistake to be handed to them.
No, thats not always a bad thing, its good to calm down and control the game, to dictate the tempo u want to play. But when a team is a goal down and you see players do that 5 times in 15 minutes -
Ya.... must be running out of space lol... That's why I said pace is the key!
Maldini+Nesta
25-10-2007, 23:15
Seedorf and Gila were amazing! I'm proud of Gila finally stepping up and showing that he can deliver. Also Clarence is reminding everyone why he is class and such an underrated player now and throughout his career.
Great win!
Forza Rossoneri!!!
Blacktop
26-10-2007, 01:14
I take it his prolonged indecision to sign a new deal and the way he treated the club in that time failed to cross your minds when singing his praises? You talk about him as if he's a saint or something.
I don't think anyone was implying that he was a saint (I don't think I'd want that anyway). We were talking mainly about his actions on the pitch and that the Celtic incident was an aberration.
The contract talks lasted a long time, but whether he was right or wrong in that regard, he's hardly exclusive to that category. Not a whole lot of details about it were made public, but since he's not getting any younger, he more than likely thought of it as a chance to score his last big contract.
Maldini+Nesta, could you put spaces between your fave players, please? Thanks.
Sorry for off topic.
Mr. Anonymous
26-10-2007, 08:42
Your right in you posts above (the one after this one) that there are still a lot of stereotypes about the Italian game which aren't true. However, I think that Italian defences are quite a lot tighter than other leagues, but there's a reason. Normally, Italian teams will press opponents in the final third of the field rather than put pressure on opponents earlier on like in England and Spain. Therefore, it's often noticeable the attacking side has a lot of possession but in the final third struggle to end attacking moves. We at Milan seem to be the ultimate example of a side that struggles with this unfortunately.
...........sorry meant for UK_JIM'S post........
Mr. Anonymous
26-10-2007, 09:20
Maybe alot of it is just thinking back to the Halcyon days of Serie A when the defences really were monsters and every team hassled and harried you for all they were worth.
Likewise with the continuing belief amongst commentators that Italian teams are always happy with a 1-0 lead as they'll shut down the game. This kind of nonsense stereotype has no place in the game, especially when i think Serie A was one of, if not the highest scoring league in the world last year.
I take your point and yes you are right that different countries, teams and individuals will all have a different method of marking. I just don't think Serie A really is miles ahead of any other league in terms of the tightness of their defending. There is a difference, but not a major one in my opinion.
The style of play called "the catenaccio" was an all defensive style of play predominantly used in the Serie "A". All they did was score one goal, and defend the hell out of you. Milan, Inter & a few other teams successfully used this style of play effectively several decades ago and even more teams jumped aboard.
As the type of play focused on defense, individuals on the teams that used this had to be solid defenders or else it wouldn't work. Therefore the Serie "A" became known as a League that was defensively inclined.
The Italian National teams have use this with success in the past. (They have been burned with it in the past too)
Although we're moving away from it (Internationally & in the domestic league) we are not so far removed from that style of play that the Serie "A" coaches & PLAYERS (especially the Italian ones who grew up watching this style of play, which emphasised defense) can't slap on a good old catenaccio on you when/if they felt the need.
Other leagues simply never sat back and allowed you to pummel away at them for 70 or 80 minutes. The Italian defensive player had to be a top notch defender & highly organized to effectively use this type of play.
Simply seeing Italians have an "ITALIAN" word to describe this style of play speaks volumes about the stress Italians put on defense. The La Liga & EPL teams (IMO) simply haven't focused on defense as the Italians have.
Catenaccio is not about defending one goal leads it's about defending deep and hitting teams on the break. Catenaccio is not the same as parking the bus. No Italian team plays catenaccio or has played it in a long, long time. In the Champions league Liverpool played catenaccio under Benitez in 2005, Arsenal played it in 2006 and of course Greece at Euro 2004.
dont you need a sweeper (libero) to play a true catenaccio?
Mr. Anonymous
26-10-2007, 11:07
Catenaccio is not about defending one goal leads it's about defending deep and hitting teams on the break. Catenaccio is not the same as parking the bus. No Italian team plays catenaccio or has played it in a long, long time. In the Champions league Liverpool played catenaccio under Benitez in 2005, Arsenal played it in 2006 and of course Greece at Euro 2004.
Ahhhhh, I am speaking about mind set more than formation my friend.
Principle vs Law!!!
Strong Defense first (principle) vs "The Catenaccio" (The law which applies the principle)
The Catenaccio is not being used in the way it way orginally designed, I agree. That was not my point.
I'm speaking of the mind set & ability to play strong defense for Italian players, could have stemmed from growing up around this type of system. They have proven to be very capable defenders historically speaking as has the Serie "A" as well. Therefore, although the formations of the "Catenaccio" proper don't exist, the ability to grind out 1 - 0 victory's with a defense first mind set does.
However, what you said,"it's about defending deep and hitting teams on the break" is very similar to what Empoli & several teams have done to us. And if you look at it's history it was used most effectively to guard 1 or 2 - 0 leads. Using the Catenaccio team almost never scored 3 or 4 goals.
Just like Brazilians historically play a free flowing open running passing game & want to put 5 goal past you...the Italians play a more defensive game. So they naturally have to be good at defending to play that type of game, just as the Brazilians are good at the type of game they play.
I agree the game in Italy has opened up a lot and I mentioned that...but IMO they can all play a pretty mean defensive game when & if the need arises.
If you follow the thread back up you'll see why I brought it up. :5ok:
I'm speaking of the mind set & ability to play strong defense for Italian players, could have stemmed from growing up around this type of system. They have proven to be very capable defenders historically speaking as has the Serie "A" as well. Therefore, although the formations of the "Catenaccio" proper don't exist, the ability to grind out 1 - 0 victory's with a defense first mind set does.
No it doesn't. Teams don't play for 1-0's either, not since the late 80s.
However, what you said,"it's about defending deep and hitting teams on the break" is very similar to what Empoli & several teams have done to us. And if you look at it's history it was used most effectively to guard 1 or 2 - 0 leads. Using the Catenaccio team almost never scored 3 or 4 goals.
No what teams like Empoli do against big sides is park the bus and try to avoid defeat.
Just like Brazilians historically play a free flowing open running passing game & want to put 5 goal past you...the Italians play a more defensive game. So they naturally have to be good at defending to play that type of game, just as the Brazilians are good at the type of game they play.
Cliches.
I agree the game in Italy has opened up a lot and I mentioned that...but IMO they can all play a pretty mean defensive game when & if the need arises.
So can everyone else.
dont you need a sweeper (libero) to play a true catenaccio?
Yes but no one plays with sweepers anymore.
did anyone notice our new acquisition? we got a new player for the game against Shaktar... see the picture? who is the guy in the yellow circle????
Mr. Anonymous
26-10-2007, 14:41
No it doesn't. Teams don't play for 1-0's either, not since the late 80s.
No what teams like Empoli do against big sides is park the bus and try to avoid defeat.
Cliches.
So can everyone else.
Your picking & isolating points instead of looking at the whole picture.
But I'm talking about the mentality of defense first to win games. Park the bus, Catenaccio call it what you will but in both situations defense first is the mentality, and they hit you on the counter.
Teams don't play for a 1 - 0 win anymore...Stronger teams will not do this I agree. But do you think a team like Empoli play for more than a one nothing score against Milan?
You can say its a cliche...but the statement about Brazil happens to be true...they do historically play an open free flowing passing game in an attempt to put the ball past you 5 times. I think most people would agree.
They would also agree that most Italian team have played a far more defensive type game historically. (again I agree it has opened up compared to years ago)
But both these team play this way because the are playing to their strengths.
Therefore Italy must have good defenders in order to play this style (successfully) as the Brazilian have great play makers to play their style. (successfully)
Everyone else can...? I don't think there are too many defenses that have the confidence to live and die by their defense like the Italians. Not saying that they do it now, but they ablility to do it quite successfully if the need arises.
This is not connected to Milan-Shakhtar but it's connected to Milan's CL campaign :
The big Week 14 clash between Milan and Juventus at San Siro will be brought forward to Saturday December 1. Originally, it should have been played on December 2 but due to Milan's match with Celtic after the match with Juve, it will be played a day earlier.
It will be an important week for Milan :
November 28, Wednesday : Benfica-Milan in CL
December 1 , Saturday : Milan-Juventus
December 4, Tuesday : Milan-Celtic
I hope the match against Celtic will be do-or-die for you :D
No it doesn't. Teams don't play for 1-0's either, not since the late 80s.
They used to say that Italian teams would try to win games with a score of
1/2 goal vs. 0 :devf:
[COLOR=Red]Congert to Milan wining 4-1 Although they are not strong team
hope this win will be milan awake and win in Seria A and champion
Iwas glad that Gila scored. I like his first goal alot
Forza Milan[
Great win, we showed who team milan truely is when we play our tempo at full speed.we are still a champion quality team at any highest level.
The question remains,'Can we exhibit that quality in a season long basis?'
LuckyLuciano
01-11-2007, 12:42
With a 1 goal loss against Roma, and then a 5-0 win against Sampdoria, i don't know what to believe anymore. It feels like we're winning half of the matches with at least 3 goals, and then loose the rest with one goal
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