View Full Version : Gourcuff-Ancelotti
Zvonimir
27-01-2008, 21:12
To get this clear.
I can not understant Ancelotti's treatment with Gourcuff. Against Genoa, even though i don't know if he was on the bench, he used the regular subs, Emerson ( a 32 year old ), Brocchi ( the same ), and Gilardino ( a player that needs confidence and not a typical appearance in 15 minutes ). Where is Gourcuff?
The one thing is that Ancelotti is clearly obsessed with expirienced players, that would react with no pressure. If we do accept that Gourcuff is not able to reach that level at the age of 21, what happens with Pato? An 18 year old player gets a staring place in a team where players like Baggio struggled to get a regular place. So i don't think that it has to go with age or expirience, but, i'm afraid it has to do with-as Ancelotti sees it- innability. He considers this player a Coppa Italia level man. If things appear to be so, the only thing that can be done, is we will destry the career of this man. Why should we keep a player, since now we were eliminated by Coppa Italia? What keeps that player motivated in Milan when he sees a player like Brocchi getting into the pitch while he sits on the bench?
I can accept that Pato got an empty spot in Milan's starting 11, while Gourcuff has to drop either Kaka or Seedorf. But, against Genoa, it is extremnly useless to suggest that we need Seedorf to win it. If we can smoothly put a young guy in the squad against a team that should be beaten easily, when will that happen? If we can't win Genoa in San Siro, with Gourcuff instead of Seedorf, then we deserve being 10th.
The same goes for Gilardino. I stronlgy believe that Gilardino, in terms of ability, is one of the best strikers in Italy. No one scores in Italy without being good. But under these circumstances, no one would perform as he used to. Playing under great dispute and questioned all the time, a constant on/off in the transfer list, a crowd with no clear feelings about him and an uncertain position in the pitch even when a team plays with one single striker, is all together the reason why he can't score in the one-on-nobody. I am sure that he is a lost case for Milan, but if he goes to another top team ( Juventus ) and play with another forward next to him he will shine, unbothered by other problems.
With those, I don't blame Ancelotti, I'm just thinking. I would like to see your oppinion.
Well I do blame Ancelotti...maybe I'm completely wrong in doing so...but I disagree with his subs and I'm really getting fed of that defensive approach at home against weaker teams.
I also wonder why are we keeping Gourcuff...there's no point in having one of the hottest prospects in Europe who used to captain the u-21 side (IIRC) playing in Coppa Italia matches and giving him 2 minutes on the field whenever (rareeeely) Ancelotti decides to put the guy on...Note: In those two minutes we just try to keep possession of the ball to kill the game so why bother?
I also agree that if we can't beat Genoa at home with Gourcuff playing instead of Seedorf then we really should be 10th or even lower in the table, is our squad that bad that we can't win a game if we don't play with our Strongest XI? (Which is not even that strong anymore)
IMO Ancelotti has lost it (at least in the league) and is lacking ideas/players/guts and while I'd thank him for all he's done for this side...I wouldn't be sad to see him leaving for a top coach like Lippi/Mourinho...or Wenger (my dream coach)
Gourcuff and gila havent really lit it up when they have gotten the chance...
now gourcuff hasent had as many chances, but i guarentee that when he over-dribbles, or is out of position, carlo goes crazy. that being said, i think he requires more chances with the first XI...so he can learn the system and where to be ect. Also, seedorf plays much better when rested.
gila...well that a slippery slope and intense thread...
slifersd
28-01-2008, 02:45
Gourcuff is simply yesterday's news for this team now. Why does Pato get to start when Gourcuff has to sit till he rots? Didin't you hear the president talk about how Pato is the new megastar for this team and that he is going to score 30 goals in half a season? To be fair, neither Gourcuff nor Pato really should be starting right now because both need a lot more seasoning to fully utilize their potential. But Pato is the only new signing this team made last year and is supposed to be the hope of the franchise. He has to start because otherwise the fans will demand Berlusconi to spend more money on the market and buy some real players, and we all know how he feels about that. If you can remember this, the same thing happened last season with Oliveira and Gourcuff. Both of them stunk in games and clearly didn't deserve to play at all, but Ancelotti still gave them plenty of time to prove themselves. Not because Ancelotti loved those two guys to death, but because the management wouldn't let their investments look like jokes, even though that is the reality.
But Pato is the only new signing this team made last year and is supposed to be the hope of the franchise. He has to start because otherwise the fans will demand Berlusconi to spend more money on the market and buy some real players, and we all know how he feels about that. If you can remember this, the same thing happened last season with Oliveira and Gourcuff. Both of them stunk in games and clearly didn't deserve to play at all, but Ancelotti still gave them plenty of time to prove themselves. Not because Ancelotti loved those two guys to death, but because the management wouldn't let their investments look like jokes, even though that is the reality.
Good points, slifersd. Perhaps more than anything Carletto likes the stability the most. With Seedorf-Pirlo-Rino has been gelling one to another for years and Ambro's revival, it will be utterly difficult for Gorky to play, even as a sub. The good thing is Gorky said that he'd fight for a spot at least until this season ends. I like that kind of mentality, but frankly speaking I think this season is likely the last opportunity for him to prove his worth
Here's my 2 cents:
What makes Milan Milan (or at least Carlo's Milan anyway) is POSESSION. Carlo has to deal every day with the problem of very little width and hardly any speed aside from Kaka Pato or a fit Ronaldo. Hence we use Seedorf EXTENSIVELY to hold on to posession and distribute the ball far up front.
As talented as he Gorcuff is nowehre near Seedorf in terms of keeping posession. He might be good in attack but Carlo needs more than that. The game against Atalanta clearly showed how POOR we are at dealing with lost posession.....esp as Gattuso is pretty quiet in these games.
My one cent-Gorky rots this year because he was given chances last year. Pato plays because he obviously has been aces in training, and have produced the goods on the pitch. Watching Gorky is frustrating because he a) is young and should play and develop, yet b)frustrates the heck out of me becuase he always seems out of position, losing the ball, not looking like he DESERVES to play...it is a bum situation, I am glad he'll fight till the end of the year, but I think he knows that it is time for him to move on. hopefully we can get a price for him.
peace out
My one cent-Gorky rots this year because he was given chances last year. Pato plays because he obviously has been aces in training, and have produced the goods on the pitch. Watching Gorky is frustrating because he a) is young and should play and develop, yet b)frustrates the heck out of me becuase he always seems out of position, losing the ball, not looking like he DESERVES to play...it is a bum situation, I am glad he'll fight till the end of the year, but I think he knows that it is time for him to move on. hopefully we can get a price for him.
peace out
I agree about Gourcuff. He should develop and play games. I think, Milan should loan him, he is right now not suitable for Milan. This is his last chance, if he still cant get games, he should go (I prefer loaning him). He must play (a situation that Milan cant give right now)!
Zvonimir
28-01-2008, 14:09
Without being convinced either that Gourcuff is Milan starting 11 quality, not all the 20 year old players have the immidiate effect with Kaka. To be sure that Gourcuff deserves to be in Milan, not even 10 games can prove that. He should first feel important, and not that he is taking an every day exam.
I am not saying Ancelotti is wrong. I'm just curious about his thoughts about him when he gets home.
As for possesion football played by Milan, I agree, but sooner or later, Seedorf will retire ( even though in Milan he could play until 40 ), and we will ask for a replacement. Same goes with Pirlo and Gattuso. I hope we won't realize that we had the replacement in our squad but sold him. Rijkaard was once going to be replaced by Vieira, but we threw away that option. With the attitude shown right now, either we lack judgement, or we pay a non-worthing youngster.
Bosniaco
28-01-2008, 14:22
Gourcuff cant prove him self by playing 20 min in few games.
20 minutes is pushing it. He gets at most 10 minutes every 4th match we play. When anybody else in our team is in bad form, Carlo shows trust in the player and allows the player to get back into top form. Seedorf for example was DISASTROUS in the first half of last season. Pirlo regardless of form is played, as is Gattuso etc etc.
Even if Seedorf is in good form as he is now, 25 minutes can't be TOO difficult to give Gourcuff. He has the skills to cause the opposing defense trouble, has a good cross, nice vision and a good shot as well. Keep in mind that I am in no way suggesting that Gourcuff is better than Seedorf. However, Seedorf is getting older and can't/shouldn't play as many games in a row. Gourcuff is a young promising player who has shown that he can do a good job in our midfield( recall Kaka calling him his Messi after the AEK game). If Gourcuff doesn't get more chances this year then I'm 100% certain that his father will go to the management and request at least a loan so that his son can get more playing time. His career is basically getting stifled the way things are going.
Barcelona I'm sure can be considered a great/big club. Look at what they've done with Krcic, giving him enough substitute chances (i.e. MORE than 5 minutes) so that he got integrated and forced his way into the starting 11. All I'm asking is to at least consistently give Gourcuff the chance to impress. That for me is at least 20 mins a match with the occasional start here and there. If that's too much then it's a waste of his time and our money to keep him here.
remote2book
28-01-2008, 18:50
like every other star i think when seedorf or majority of other of our midfielders are injured and carlo is forced to play gorcuff than i think is when he will really be able to try to stay in the starting rotation i think that is the only way he will get his chance while carlo is at milan or in that case gorcuff as well
Warro Bantan
30-01-2008, 19:02
Good thread...good thoughts, and all with valid points.
I think that Gorky has been in Carlo´s bad books ever since the Celtic game, where he allowed the Celtic player to be onside, which cost us the game.
Its difficult (it seems) for some players to regain Carlo´s trust..and I will go further to say that Pato cant really be considered with Gorky, because our forward situation is vastly different to what obtains in the midfield...
We have a completely different picture in the midfield, while with R99 and Pippo out, thru injury, plus the amount of money paid for him, combine to force him into the starting 11 (not to mention Gila´s sputtering form)
That being said, Gorky IMO should get more playing time....but since none of us here are watching the training sessions, we cant kno for certain that he is impressing Carlo enough to warrant more time.
Indeed, if he cant wedge himself into our starting 11 by the middle of this half of the season, we should see about loaning him out, depending on what our midfield looks like, or potentially looks like, come the start of next season.
Blacktop
30-01-2008, 19:20
Part of it is due to our ongoing inability to put lesser teams away, but I also think it's because people have bought into the ridiculous hype of Gour being the "next Zidane" or whomever, and expect him to be God in return. Not every youngster is going to be an instant Messi or Kaka.
remote2book
30-01-2008, 19:37
Part of it is due to our ongoing inability to put lesser teams away, but I also think it's because people have bought into the ridiculous hype of Gour being the "next Zidane" or whomever, and expect him to be God in return. Not every youngster is going to be an instant Messi or Kaka.
but messi and kaka were given the chance to play...just like bojan at barca...and gorcuff its been nothing...emerson is being picked over him...brochi is being picked over him....how are we ever suppose to develop for the future? ok i agree we have one of the best midfield...but when seedorf or kaka need rest and we are playing against relegation zone teams gorcuff needs to play..carlo has really dissapointed me ...if gorky doesnt play he will go to a team like arsenal or MAN U where they AcTUALLY develop youngsters
Blacktop
31-01-2008, 01:03
That's one reason why I was against Emerson coming here in the first place. If they want to groom someone new (in this case, Gour), it doesn't make sense to bring in a crusty veteran for a quick fix.
remote2book
31-01-2008, 01:10
That's one reason why I was against Emerson coming here in the first place. If they want to groom someone new (in this case, Gour), it doesn't make sense to bring in a crusty veteran for a quick fix.
and it was wrong because they told gorcuff he would get more playing time....of course where have we heard that one b4 from the mangament :ban: if i was him i would leave milan...i mean realy he is getting treated like crap..
Blacktop
31-01-2008, 01:36
Would someone mind correcting the spelling of "Gourcuff" in the thread title? TYVM.
I think Gourcuff is meant to cover Pirlo in Carlo's mind which makes it very dificult for the guy as Pirlo is the brain of the team and rarely off field
As I watch him he resembles very much of him with his style of play as for AM positions he is not explosive enough, slows the pace but his tecnique is high also the passing so he is definitely good for creative DMF position
Carlo has done a perfect job with Gourcuff. He has given him a chance, he blew it, and now he is not playing.
Carlo has done a perfect job with Gourcuff. He has given him a chance, he blew it, and now he is not playing.
ROFL yes of course Gourcuff has got plenty of chances, especially this season right? :rollani:
outlaw_member
25-02-2008, 08:42
At Arsenal we like youngsters, how you guys like olders. So do us a favour and give him to us, please. He rejected Arsenal to move to Milan, so I hope he has realised his mistake. Also what is Ancelotti's current stance on him, I read an article a while back stating all the players that were going to be let go(Favalli, Cafu and co.), I also saw Gourcuffs name at the end but no too sure about the credibility though.
with gallas and rosicky in return?
outlaw_member
25-02-2008, 10:43
with gallas and rosicky in return?
I would give you Rosicky in a heart beat, but not el capitan. I am surprised many Milanista's regard Gallas as the better defender at Arsenal, because Toure is better than him. I guess he doesn't have as big a reputation as Gallas.
At Arsenal we like youngsters, how you guys like olders. So do us a favour and give him to us, please. He rejected Arsenal to move to Milan, so I hope he has realised his mistake. Also what is Ancelotti's current stance on him, I read an article a while back stating all the players that were going to be let go(Favalli, Cafu and co.), I also saw Gourcuffs name at the end but no too sure about the credibility though.
I dont think thats a mistake. Arsenal each year sign too many promising players, but only a few could play for the first team. I heard that french media even blame Wenger for destroying many youngsters.
Do you Arsenal fans really need a quite slow player with maybe potential but now only above average skills like him, or just join a psychological attack of Arsene Wenger. :sagrin:
Gourcuff is the only youngster came after Calciopoli, so everyone watched him, expected something from him. What he need is confidence and the experience with Milan way of play, which is extremly difficult because Pirlo, Seedorf and Kaka are unique players. This and last season Milan has problem with scoring and getting points, so we must field the best formation each match, newcomer like him could not have good chances.
He still has future with Milan, but if Arsenal wants him that much, take him :v103: . However, I doubt that.
outlaw_member
25-02-2008, 14:23
I dont think thats a mistake. Arsenal each year sign too much promising players, but only a few could play for the first team. I heard that french media even blame Wenger for destroying many youngsters.
Do you Arsenal fans really need a quite slow player with maybe potential but now only above average skills like him, or just join a psychological attack of Arsene Wenger.
Gourcuff is the only youngster came after Calciopoli, so everyone watched him, expected something from him. What he need is confidence and the experience with Milan way of play, which is extremly difficult because Pirlo, Seedorf and Kaka are unique players. This and last season Milan has problem with scoring and getting points, so we must field the best formation each match, newcomer like him could not have good chances.
He still have future with Milan, but if Arsenal wants him that much, take him. However, I doubt that.
I say it's a mistake because he would have had a far quicker impact for us than for Milan. Whether it would be greater, that we don't know, but he certainly would have had more appearances.
I hear he is very slow but if he has a brain which thinks 5 seconds before everyone else than there should'nt be that much of a problem.
Your right having too many youngsters means many won't make it, however Gourcuff would be a slightly older player for us(yes even at 21) but if he is good enough than he would rise to the top.
In saying all that, how slow is he? As he would be played on the LAM or RAM for Arsenal, which needs decent pace at least.
Also where did you read about the french media? Not that I don't believe you, I'd like to see what they said.
Yeah, in France, medias are contrasted on Wenger: everybody knows he allowed to some young and good players to become very good players (Flamini was nothing in Marseille before going to Arsenal), but he also buys the guys too young sometimes, which is bad for the clubs that have no protection (they sign pre-contracts for example).
Same problem with Liverpool (principally when it was Houiller, now the same problem must probably appear in Spain with Benitez) ...
I say it's a mistake because he would have had a far quicker impact for us than for Milan. Whether it would be greater, that we don't know, but he certainly would have had more appearances.
I hear he is very slow but if he has a brain which thinks 5 seconds before everyone else than there should'nt be that much of a problem.
Your right having too many youngsters means many won't make it, however Gourcuff would be a slightly older player for us(yes even at 21) but if he is good enough than he would rise to the top.
In saying all that, how slow is he? As he would be played on the LAM or RAM for Arsenal, which needs decent pace at least.
Also where did you read about the french media? Not that I don't believe you, I'd like to see what they said.
About the media, I heard that long time ago, so please dont be angry at me if I cant prove that now. However, one of the contents said that Wenger use his vast knowledge of french football to steal many kids, and if they stayed, they could have steady improvement rather than unknowable future.
Of course, I dont support that saying. This is what people call football world. And Wenger has done his best for them, than any other managers.
What I want to say is the decicison of him joining Milan instead of Arsenal could not be counted as a mistake so easy. And what Wenger said that he ever wanted him annoy me a bit. I respect him, but he ever wanted almost all young players in the world. His list include even Rooney, C.Ronaldo, Torres, Pato,... If that list contain Gourcuff, who could be suprised. However the time he said that was when he know the next opponent is Milan, the Champion of Europe, World Champion and the Champion of Old Men :D , make me think of a normal argurment with Ferguson before than his need for a player like Gourcuff. The difference is that Carlo did not talk back.
If Gourcuff came in Milan one year earlier, when we still had Sheva, Rui Costa, Stam and was contender for both Serie A and CL. I think there is no problem. He is just young, he play or not doesn't matter, what he need is to gain experience.
However, he came in with so much attention (young, new Zidane) and expectation (Rui leaved), when Milan was weakened. We need him, but cant field him because we need points. This season is not different. He cost us just about 2M, if Arsenal buy 5, 6 players like him (you do that every season, right), no one could question.
Even the young blood Arsenal had hard time with youngster. Last season, Mu and Chelski were so strong, and you had injured Henry. The expectation was not high, so you could use many young players and Fabregas shined. However, when PL was just a battle of you and MU, what is. Almost matches had Henry, Viera, Cambell, Lungberg (sorry), Pires,... even the mighty Viera was overloaded, so how could you field youngster. Milan is like that, now (though we just fight for 4th, but both team need every point). But our Gourcuff has the attention, that is the difference.
I know that PL, specially Arsenal could help players improve his speed. However, if he really can think faster 5s than others, there no place better than Milan and Serie A, where that "chessmaster" ability is always needed for taticaly play.
Discusion about future should not last long. What I want to say is Gourcuff was just unlucky, not "mistake" like you've said.
If he could then move to Arsenal and become world class player, like Viera before, I will congrat him, just that. We did not regret much about Viera back then and Gourcuff's case, too. They were with us in hard time (Milan was in crisis). They are just "unlucky" more than "mistake".
At last, it is still early to talk about transfer. Lets wait for the imcoming match instead. Then watch Gourcuff untill the end of this season.
outlaw_member
25-02-2008, 18:02
Fair enough, mistake was probably the wrong word. What do you think is the current stance of Ancelotti on Gourcuff?
Also could you possibly explain this part a bit more
"However the time he said that was when he know the next opponent is Milan, the Champion of Europe, World Champion and the Champion of Old Men , make me think of a normal argurment with Ferguson before than his need for a player like Gourcuff. The difference is that Carlo did not talk back."
I assume English is not your first language, so sorry if it's any inconvenience.
Giovanni
25-02-2008, 18:07
At Arsenal we like youngsters, how you guys like olders. So do us a favour and give him to us, please. He rejected Arsenal to move to Milan, so I hope he has realised his mistake. Also what is Ancelotti's current stance on him, I read an article a while back stating all the players that were going to be let go(Favalli, Cafu and co.), I also saw Gourcuffs name at the end but no too sure about the credibility though.
I would swap him with Sagna.
outlaw_member
25-02-2008, 18:24
Hell no Giovanni De Niro, Sagna has been one of the best performing right backs in Europe this season. The guy is not only defensively a rock he can attack aswell. I would give you Rosicky though.
Any idea on Ancelotti's stance on the French youngster?
outlaw_member
25-02-2008, 18:53
I would swap him with Sagna.
No way Giovanni De Niro :happy:, Sagna has been one of the best performing right backs in Europe this season. Defensivley he is a rock and he can attack very well too, with excellent pace and strength. I would give you Rosicky though.
Sorry for the double post, this site crashes alot on me.
Oh, I'm not proud of my English, too :D
I think: Wenger doesn't want Gourcuff that much. He only want to tease us a bit, but Carlo isn't Ferguson.
Anceloti hold no grudge aganst french players, youngster included. He needed Ribery in order to both use his skills and help Gourcuff to adapt faster. However, he ended up with Ba :D
outlaw_member
26-02-2008, 09:57
Oh, I'm not proud of my English, too :D
I think: Wenger doesn't want Gourcuff that much. He only want to tease us a bit, but Carlo isn't Ferguson.
Anceloti hold no grudge aganst french players, youngster included. He needed Ribery in order to both use his skills and help Gourcuff to adapt faster. However, he ended up with Ba :D
Why did you guys bring back Ba, surprising transfer indeed.
Regarding Gourcuff the story about him and Arsenal was before he signed for you guys so it's not something new, or mind games.
Ba was only brung in for training and stuff like that as a favor to a former player.
And he's supposedly good for team morale.
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